Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

I have not "usurp[ed] faith from its true meaning".

Yes you have. You make it a human quality in the natural man.

nope ... that's all your doing with your "human faith" fallacy because you do not believe Scripture when Scripture tells us there is only one faith (Eph 4:5).

And I understand why you have to claim more than one faith (Eph 4:5). Because you have to align Scripture to your dogma. But you are not to align Scripture to your dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, let go of the error. Your "human faith" fallacy is error. Let it go ...

The Lord Jesus Christ would have risen from the grave even if no one believed.

The Lord Jesus Christ would still have been resurrected from the grave even if all descendants of Adam rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and ended up cast into the lake of fire.

The grave could not, under any circumstances, hold Him it was not possible that he should be holden of it (Acts 2:24)..

Your point doesn’t make no sense.

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 2:24 clearly states that it was impossible for death to hold the Lord Jesus Christ.

There was no claim for which death could hold Him. If death could hold Him, then God's Word becomes meaningless because OT prophecies concerning His resurrection would fail and God's Word cannot, nor will it, fail ... never, never never fail. Every jot and tittle will be fulfilled (Matt 5:18). That includes the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.
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[reneweddaybyday]

I bring everything you submit to the Word of God and let the Word of God shed its light on your claims/assertions.

Rather than address the Scriptures, you submit personal attacks ... which is nothing but a poor debate tactic because you are unable to refute the central point.

Grow up and debate in a more meaningful manner ... get rid of the rhetoric ... address the issue ... quit being an accuser of the brethren. You do know who is the accuser of the brethren, yes?

You missing the point, you still making a judgment.

You are missing the point. Your personal attacks do not address the Scriptures which shed light on your erroneous dogma.

Instead of responding meaningfully to the Scriptures, you make blanket statements concerning all who do not hold to your erroneous dogma and claim its your privilege to say they "really don’t believe it at all !"

I and others do believe Scripture. What I and others do not believe is your erroneous rendering of Scripture.

You cannot tell me or anyone else that they "really don’t believe [Scripture] at all !" just because I or anyone else do not hold to your manipulated version of Scripture.

nope ... that's all your doing with your "human faith" fallacy, even though you have been shown in Scripture that there is only one faith. You obliviously continue on with your fallacy in order to support your erroneous dogma.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where there is error, you are to let go of the error.

you have taken what is a Gift from God and His Grace, and made it a work, a quality in the flesh of the natural man.

nope ... that's all your doing with your "human faith" fallacy. You want to claim there is more than one faith even though God's Word tells us there is only one faith? You want to claim faith = works even though God's Word tells us faith ≠ works? Have at it.

You believe the "human faith" fallacy and you believe faith = works with the same faith the atheist believes the lie that there is no God or the pagan believes there are X number of gods.

I have explained Rom 5:1 in light of Rom 5:9 and again, Faith in Vs 1 receives as a testimony the Truth of Vs 9 of having been Justified by Christs blood.

you are to understand Romans 5:9 in light of what you have read in Romans 5:1.

When we read Scripture, we are to keep in mind what we have read in the previous verses/chapters/books in order to better comprehend verses which follow.

When we read Romans 5:9, we are to keep in mind what we read in Romans 5:1.

When we read Romans 5:1, we are to keep in mind what we read in Romans 4.

You need your human faith.

your "human faith" fallacy is nothing but a prop supporting your erroneous dogma because you believe there is more than one faith, even though Eph 4:5 makes clear there is only one faith.

Faith in Vs 1 receives as a testimony the Truth of Vs 9

wrong ... faith in Vs 1 receives as a testimony the Truth of Romans 4.

Right Faith receives the testimony of Rom 4:25

And Romans 4:25 receives the testimony of the verses prior to it:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Romans 4:24-5:1 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith,

When you reject the truth of Scripture it is because you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

You hold to your erroneous dogma and hold it above Scripture, the Word of God.

I have explained this passage to you numerous times, you cant understand it

I understand and believe Scripture just as written.

I understand your erroneous dogma and I reject it.

That I reject your manipulation of Scripture does not mean I "cant understand it" (i.e. Scripture and/or your erroneous dogma).

You have rejected Justification by the blood of Christ alone Rom 5:9

I reject your manipulation of Scripture. Rejecting your erroneous dogma does not equal me rejecting Scripture.

You add works to justification.

nope ... Scripture makes clear that faith ≠ works.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The above quote is what I am referring to when I claim that you have "botched" your post.

In the above quote it appears that I said:

"You add works to justification." and then said "nope ... Scripture makes clear that faith ≠ works".

However, brightfame52, you are the one who said "You add works to justification."

I then replied and stated "nope ... Scripture makes clear that faith ≠ works".

I don't know what you are doing to botch your posts, but I have pointed it out numerous times and still you continue to submit your posts without correcting your error.

Your antics make clear you are not fit to meaningfully discuss Scripture.

The rest of your post is garbage.

ooohhh … you're feeding your flesh again by "just being honest" … feel better now???
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[reneweddaybyday]

Romans 4:24-5:1 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith,

When you reject the truth of Scripture it is because you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

You hold to your erroneous dogma and hold it above Scripture, the Word of God.

Now unfortunate for you, you deny

nope ... I do not deny Scripture. I deny your erroneous dogma.

According to you, the "elect" are justified before they believe and that is not what Scripture tells us.

Romans 4:24 clearly states that righteousness is imputed if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before the person believes.

You have even gone so far as to state that the "elect" ... "do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners"
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[reneweddaybyday]

Since, according to you, the all men of Romans 5:18 applies only to "the Church, the Body of Christ", then only "the Church, the Body of Christ" was/is under judgment to condemnation.

Yep

Then, under your rendering, the same is true of Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

So only "the Church, the Body of Christ" die? ... only "the Church, the Body of Christ" sin?

Do you not see how erroneous your dogma is, brightfame52???
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[reneweddaybyday]

You have again botched your reply in your Post #2513.

I am not going to respond to posts you submit where you include your statement in a quote in which it appears I made the statement. I will point out that you have botched your response, but I'm not going to take the time to figure out who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
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[brightfame52]

renewed

Do you still "hope" you are justified? You still need to be "convince[d] in [your] mind" because you lack faith (don't believe Scripture)?

I know I am justified because I have Holy Spirit within and the fruit of the Spirit is the evidence in my life that I am born again ... justified by faith (Rom 5:1) ... no longer ungodly nor an enemy ... fully reconciled.

What I "hope" for is the time when I will see my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We "hope" for His appearing ... for that is when we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


If you're still "hoping" to be justified, try believing what Scripture tells you:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Your erroneous dogma has failed again when the light of Scripture scrutinizes your fallacious claims.


2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
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Again, Faith persuades the mind and heart of substantive invisible reality, such as Justification, its invisible but a spiritual reality. God gives Faith to all for whom Christ died and Justified.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The phrase "doctrines of grace" are summarized with the acronym TULIP ... are wholly calvinistic dogma.

Tulip stands for truths of the Gospel, found in scripture !

Do you even know what is the gospel according to Scripture? I am not interested in your "doctrines of grace" or "TULIP" [however you want to refer to your erroneous dogma]. I am interested in IT IS WRITTEN. It is written is what my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ relied on when He walked on the earth. It is written was good enough for Him and I will follow Him. It is written

If you are not interested in the Truths of Tulip, which are no less than Gospel of Gods Grace teachings, then you have no interest in the Gospel of Gods Grace, thats not a good sign friend.

Your "truths of tulip" may be vital to your erroneous dogma, but Scripture is more vital to me than your dogma.

Each of the Truths of Tulip are grounded in the scripture, so you have a problem if you cant see that.

Like I said, brightfame52, you have no problem manipulating Scripture because you do not believe Scripture. You add a little here, remove a little there ... and the result is unscriptural ... merely the musings of vain imagining

1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 1 John 2:2, you have to change "the world" and "the whole world" to "the world of the elect"

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.

All those scriptures apply exclusively to the elect of the world, jew and gentile.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All those scriptures apply exclusively to the elect of the world, jew and gentile.

This is the fallacy of reformed theology, aka Calvinism. They have the unbiblical notion that Jesus Christ only died for some people.

They unreasonably "reason" that God unconditionally chose certain people for salvation only and the only reason they will believe is because God regenerates them so that they will believe.

They deny free will in that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel, and must be regenerated in order to believe.

None of this can be found in the Bible, but posters like bf52 continue to push this false teaching.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

it proves my case ... that the Lord Jesus Christ did not partake (share fully). The Lord Jesus Christ only took part.

He partook in His humanity of the seed of Abraham, a particular people in the world Heb 2:16
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

God refers to the seed of Abraham in Heb 2:16 because He wrote the letter to Jews ... not gentiles:

Has nothing to do with race, many gentiles belong to the seed of Abraham Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is t father of us all,

God doesnt save people because of their race, you think like the self righteous pharisees.

fixed your statement for you.

you have such a high opinion of yourself ...

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
.

Again, scripture is about Jesus Christ and His People chosen in Him !

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, scripture is about Jesus Christ and His People chosen in Him !

Reality check:

Scripture is about the God's plan for the human race. Eloquently stated in Scripture:

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the manChrist Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

I never said it was ... you are the only one on this thread who has played the race card.

You are playing the race card, as though God saved the jews that He saved based upon their ethnicity.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma

Under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

Yep one must be born again to believe in Jesus, the true Jesus that is. A whole bunch of people believe in the false jesus who died for everyone in the world without exception, thats the natural mans faith.

Interesting that #8 definition refers to Rom 11:12.

Again, from Thayer's Greek Lexicon (which specifically indicates John 1:29, John 3:16, and 1 John 2:2 relate to #5 definition:

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. Wisdom 10:1)): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29(John 1:36 L in brackets); John 3:16f; 6:33,51; 8:26; 12:47; 13:1; 14:31; 16:28; 17:6,21,23; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); 1 Corinthians 4:13; 5:10; 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 ( cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536));​

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.

So you see, any assemblage of people constitute the world. 1 Jn 2:2 is the assemblage of all Gods elect, all the children of God, all His Sheep, minus the lost folk !

 

[brightfame52]

So, again, since [according to you] they're already "having been born of God" (vs 13), they are already "sons of God" and there is no reason for them to "become the sons of God" (vs 12) ... no reason for the Lord Jesus Christ to have to give them anything.

Under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???
.

Yes, again one must be born again to believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Since [according to you] they are already "Born again Sons of God", they do not need Him to give them power to become of the sons of God.

Do you really not see the error in your dogma???

Those who in Jn 1:12 received Christ, believed on His Name, did so because they had been born of God stated in Jn 1:13

13 Which were born[passive voice], not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The activity[of believing] follows the birth

To be sealed with that holy Spirit of promise is regeneration, new birth, born again.

No its not, but it occurs only to the regenerate after hearing the Gospel of their Salvation

The sealing [i.e. regeneration, new birth, born again] takes place after the person hears and after the person believes according to Eph 1:13.

The sealing follows the believing, the believing follows the hearing, the hearing comes from regeneration

You have the sealing taking place before the person hears and before the person believes.

Thats a treacherous lie, no other way to say it

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God,

which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Under your erroneous dogma you have to manipulate the plain words of Scripture to align with your error. That is improper interpretation of Scripture. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error you are to let go of the error

Thats all the seed of Abraham, from jews and gentiles Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

"So they wont ever be laid to the charge again to Gods elect". If they "wont ever be laid to the charge again", then that means that at one point sin was laid to their charge.

Your claim that sin "is never laid to the charge of Gods elect" has now been proven false.

Right sin cannot be laid to the charge of Gods elect sin God already laid them to the charge of Christ, and He took them away for ever !

"Gods purpose" is that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). Once the whosoever believeth is born again, then the Elect is in him or her and he or she is in the Elect ... i.e. then he or she is considered "elect".

Believers are those who had been born again, whose sins had been charged to Christ, and who God would not impute sin unto them. Whoevers slat is clean before God because of Christs death, are given the Gift of Faith to believe. The Gift of Faith is in regeneration. Its simple

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him ...

Ephesians 1:1 tells us who is the "us" ... the faithful in Christ Jesus those whosoever believeth in Him (John 3:16).

God did it all, He chose in Christ before the foundation, who Christ will die for, and who will believe in Christ.

you still don't get it ... Scripture is not about you or your so-called "elect". Scripture is wholly focused on the Elect of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Once all the whosoever believeth in Him believe, then they are in Him. He is the Elect. As a member in particular of the body of the Elect, the born again one becomes "elect".

Scripture is about Jesus Christ, who is Gods Elect, and those Chosen in Him before the foundation, to be His manifested bride !

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, again one must be born again to believe in Jesus Christ.

And you've never supported this from Scripture.

You are perpetuating a false doctrine.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

nope ... that's all your doing with your "human faith" fallacy because you do not believe Scripture when Scripture tells us there is only one faith (Eph 4:5).

And I understand why you have to claim more than one faith (Eph 4:5). Because you have to align Scripture to your dogma. But you are not to align Scripture to your dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, let go of the error. Your "human faith" fallacy is error. Let it go ...

You bring up human faith, the bible never does. Eph 4:5 isn't about your novelty of human faith. So since you bring it into the equation you must deal with the consequences, and that is it is law keeping Matt 23:23

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

I hope you can keep the whole law !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 2:24 clearly states that it was impossible for death to hold the Lord Jesus Christ.

There was no claim for which death could hold Him. If death could hold Him, then God's Word becomes meaningless because OT prophecies concerning His resurrection would fail and God's Word cannot, nor will it, fail ... never, never never fail. Every jot and tittle will be fulfilled (Matt 5:18). That includes the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.

I still dont see why you are making this point. I believe in the resurrection of Christ morethan you do, because He was raised again for the Justification of them He died for Rom 4:25 which were His Sheep Heb 13:20

20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

You

are missing the point. Your personal attacks do not address the Scriptures which shed light on your erroneous dogma.

Instead of responding meaningfully to the Scriptures, you make blanket statements concerning all who do not hold to your erroneous dogma and claim its your privilege to say they "really don’t believe it at all !"

I and others do believe Scripture. What I and others do not believe is your erroneous rendering of Scripture.

You cannot tell me or anyone else that they "really don’t believe [Scripture] at all !" just because I or anyone else do not hold to your manipulated version of Scripture.

Now you judging me , thats hypocritical !

nope ... that's all your doing with your "human faith" fallacy. You want to claim there is more than one faith even though God's Word tells us there is only one faith? You want to claim faith = works even though God's Word tells us faith ≠ works? Have at it.

You believe the "human faith" fallacy and you believe faith = works with the same faith the atheist believes the lie that there is no God or the pagan believes there are X number of gods.

You have hijacked the Gift of Faith which is the fruit of Christs Spirit, and made it something found in the natural man who is spiritually dead to God !

And Romans 4:25 receives the testimony of the verses prior to it:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
.

Faith receives the Divine Testimony that one is Justified by the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ. Thats Justification by Faith, or another way of saying Justification by Christ.