Who is Elihu?

[posthuman]

This is why I think Job is depicted by the self righteous man praying.

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In the beginning we see that Job is going to God on behalf of his children in case they have sinned. No mention that he is repenting of his own sins. Sure sounds like he trusted in himself that he was righteous and despised others.

The story of Job is about God removing the hedge of protection. Then Job learns how quickly he can become dust.

Also this word "justified" indicates that both are appearing before the judge in a trial when they pray. Satan is the accuser and one is justified before the judge, he pleaded to God to be merciful to him, a sinner. God said, I can do that.

The other one exalted himself, look at me, look at how great I am. God said, I can do that and told Satan to look at Job and let's find out how great he is. As a result Job was abased.

But he learned a really valuable lesson, he can pray to God and do great things. He is no match for Leviathan, but God has no problem handling Leviathan. We learn that God loved and valued Job. All Job needed to do was ask God for help in taking down leviathan and God would have been there in an instant. So then, we see once Job has learned this lesson he becomes much richer spiritually than he was before.

if he had fault in the middle of the book, in the midst of his trials, Job certainly came back to the right path, having taken to heart the rebuke of Elihu and of God. when God speaks to him, Job answers in all humility, confessing he had spoken in ignorance ((thread-relevant: agreeing with Elihu's criticism)), despising himself and repenting. Job is justified before God, and perhaps an important aspect of why, is that when he faced God, he did not do so with pride. equally important in this aspect of the narrative, is that pride, that is, self-justification ((in re: Elihu's singular criticism of Job's demeanor)) is the specific thing that God's scathing pronouncements to Job target. who are you to question Me? God asks -- and Job, righteously, answers i am no one, i spoke in error, i clap my hand over my mouth

 

[posthuman]

This is why I think Job is depicted by the self righteous man praying.

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In the beginning we see that Job is going to God on behalf of his children in case they have sinned. No mention that he is repenting of his own sins. Sure sounds like he trusted in himself that he was righteous and despised others.

The story of Job is about God removing the hedge of protection. Then Job learns how quickly he can become dust.

Also this word "justified" indicates that both are appearing before the judge in a trial when they pray. Satan is the accuser and one is justified before the judge, he pleaded to God to be merciful to him, a sinner. God said, I can do that.

The other one exalted himself, look at me, look at how great I am. God said, I can do that and told Satan to look at Job and let's find out how great he is. As a result Job was abased.

But he learned a really valuable lesson, he can pray to God and do great things. He is no match for Leviathan, but God has no problem handling Leviathan. We learn that God loved and valued Job. All Job needed to do was ask God for help in taking down leviathan and God would have been there in an instant. So then, we see once Job has learned this lesson he becomes much richer spiritually than he was before.

bro these things are what we should be talking about. worldly politics is trash, and the evil one uses it to divide and distract us.
that's all i meant to say in the other thing.

no offense meant and no offense taken, on my part

 

[ZNP]

bro these things are what we should be talking about. worldly politics is trash, and the evil one uses it to divide and distract us.
that's all i meant to say in the other thing.

no offense meant and no offense taken, on my part

Paul said we can use all things to win people.

Politics is people thinking they can lead themselves, pointing out how they are taking a broad way that leads to hell is one way to preach the gospel that Jesus Christ is Lord and that no one comes to the Father but by Him.

 

[ZNP]

bro these things are what we should be talking about. worldly politics is trash, and the evil one uses it to divide and distract us.
that's all i meant to say in the other thing.

no offense meant and no offense taken, on my part

Also I would point out that I have 14,000 posts in my blog about the rapture, so despite discussing things like the Pandemic, the Vaccine Mandate, the assassination attempt on Trump, whether or not Trump is Jehu, and many other topics on these other threads many involving current events, over half of the posts I have made clearly are focused on the Bible.

The others may not be so clear, but they are journaling our step by step progress as the world heads to the Antichrist reign.

The NT says that believers are ambassadors, we are here to warn, to exhort, to encourage, to teach, to preach, to evangelize, etc.

 

[ZNP]

When I was first saved I was told by the elders of the church where I met that they do not give Satan credit for anything. If something happens you don't blame Satan, instead you ask the Lord why it happened, why did He allow it.

This is fundamental to building our faith in Jesus as Lord of all. That is the key to all healing ministry and works of miracles.

It is also what Paul told us in Romans that all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose. Paul did not say "all things are good" only that they work together for good. They build your faith, they help you to see clearly, they help you to be sanctified, etc.

 

[christophernyc]

Injecting poetry can easily lead down a rabbit trail. Does your definition of poetry in the bible include poetic license?

The only parallel we see here is in the actual presentation of the two tests.

No, Job did not pass the second test, because he did not bless God after the second test as he did in the first test.

If Job retained his integrity after the second test, could you please explain when he did lose his integrity. It is easy to see that Job had lost his integrity somewhere before he stated that he was vile and abhorred himself. Look at Job's words before this.
Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

In your study, have you ever learned about how the bible was written? Have you ever encountered the fact that Hebrew poetry is an integral part of it? This is very common knowledge, and there are many places to learn more about it. And, no, nobody was talking about "poetic license". That is something different entirely.

I would encourage you to look into how the bible was written in Hebrew. It's quite important if you are aiming to understand Scripture as a whole.

 

[tttallison]

In your study, have you ever learned about how the bible was written? Have you ever encountered the fact that Hebrew poetry is an integral part of it? This is very common knowledge, and there are many places to learn more about it. And, no, nobody was talking about "poetic license". That is something different entirely.

I would encourage you to look into how the bible was written in Hebrew. It's quite important if you are aiming to understand Scripture as a whole.

Yes, I learned how the scripture was written. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You seem to be avoiding the hard questions, like, when did Job lose his integrity? Or why did God give 6 chapters of this book to Elihu? Elihu said he was standing in the place of God. If that statement was not true, what reason can you possible give for God to assign 6 chapters to a liar?

 

[christophernyc]

no, it's not.

you've ignored the context of Elihu's comments in ch. 34 and 35.

Job 34:9​

For he has said, 'It profits a man nothing That he should delight in God.'​

​

Job 35:3​

For you say, 'What advantage will it be to You? What profit shall I have, more than [if] I had sinned?'​

​

Job had complained in ch. 21 and 30 that it didn't matter if he sinned or not, because he could still suffer earthly calamity that he was undergoing things he thought only the wicked should have happen to them, tho he had been righteous.

Elihu is rebuking that argument, saying God does indeed punish the wicked for their sin.
the only thing Elihu says Job has been unrighteous in, is having justified himself instead of God - the exact same thing God Himself also rebukes Job over.

perhaps you are so dead set on finding fault in Elihu that you aren't clearly understanding what he is saying?

Then read what Elihu concludes after Job 34:9 in the next two verses:

Job 34:10,11
“Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
For He repays man

Yes, I learned how the scripture was written. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You seem to be avoiding the hard questions, like, when did Job lose his integrity? Or why did God give 6 chapters of this book to Elihu? Elihu said he was standing in the place of God. If that statement was not true, what reason can you possible give for God to assign 6 chapters to a liar?

no, it's not.

you've ignored the context of Elihu's comments in ch. 34 and 35.

Job 34:9​

For he has said, 'It profits a man nothing That he should delight in God.'​

​

Job 35:3​

For you say, 'What advantage will it be to You? What profit shall I have, more than [if] I had sinned?'​

​

Job had complained in ch. 21 and 30 that it didn't matter if he sinned or not, because he could still suffer earthly calamity that he was undergoing things he thought only the wicked should have happen to them, tho he had been righteous.

Elihu is rebuking that argument, saying God does indeed punish the wicked for their sin.
the only thing Elihu says Job has been unrighteous in, is having justified himself instead of God - the exact same thing God Himself also rebukes Job over.

perhaps you are so dead set on finding fault in Elihu that you aren't clearly understanding what he is saying?

...and then read what Elihu concludes immediately after in the next two verses in Job 34:10,11

Job 34:10,11
“Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way."

Elihu proclaims that man is repaid by God according to his work, which means for Job that he is suffering because of his sin. If Job had done well, he would not be suffering. Elihu does not believe that God would allow anyone to suffer unless they had done something wrong, which is exactly the same approach of Job's 3 friends. And yet, anyone who reads chapters 1 & 2 knows this is not the case with Job. He is not being punished for some sin. Elihu is wrong. God had already clearly stated from the beginning that Job's suffering is "without cause".

This is part of the danger of believing that Elihu is some prophet or saint or whatever. If you are misled by him, it requires the reader to then go back and rewrite the story we were given from the beginning. I have seen some who take his position go so far as to even contradict what God is recorded as saying. Yikes.

Do not be deceived by Elihu.

 

[ZNP]

Then read what Elihu concludes after Job 34:9 in the next two verses:

Job 34:10,11
“Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
For He repays man



...and then read what Elihu concludes immediately after in the next two verses in Job 34:10,11

Job 34:10,11
“Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way."

Elihu proclaims that man is repaid by God according to his work, which means for Job that he is suffering because of his sin. If Job had done well, he would not be suffering. Elihu does not believe that God would allow anyone to suffer unless they had done something wrong, which is exactly the same approach of Job's 3 friends. And yet, anyone who reads chapters 1 & 2 knows this is not the case with Job. He is not being punished for some sin. Elihu is wrong. God had already clearly stated from the beginning that Job's suffering is "without cause".

This is part of the danger of believing that Elihu is some prophet or saint or whatever. If you are misled by him, it requires the reader to then go back and rewrite the story we were given from the beginning. I have seen some who take his position go so far as to even contradict what God is recorded as saying. Yikes.

Do not be deceived by Elihu.

What Elihu says here is precisely what Jesus said, with what measure it will be measured again to you and as you have done it will be done to you.

When Job is praying for his kids lest they have sinned that is contrary to the way the Lord taught us to pray. It isn't proof that he is self righteous, but it certainly is consistent with someone who is self righteous. Then when He complains that he has done nothing wrong to deserve what happened to him that also is not proof, but again is consistent with someone who is self righteous.

When the self righteous guy was praying the Lord didn't say that his prayer was false. He didn't argue that he hadn't fasted, hadn't given his tithes, hadn't done everything he claimed to have done. However, what he did say is that he hadn't been justified either. We are all standing before God, the judge of all, Satan is our accuser and he is asking God to be allowed to take a crack at us. To be justified means that God denies Satan's pleas. The Publican knew he was a sinner, he was pleading for mercy, God granted him the mercy. The self righteous do not plead for mercy, and when we look at Job's prayer there is no plea for mercy. This is now the fourth point that is consistent with someone who is proud and self righteous. These four points are not proof, but if anyone was not the case that would have been proof that Job was not self righteous.

But then Job blames God for what happened to him in order to justify himself. That is proof of being self righteous. It took many chapters to finally squeeze that poison out of him. The point is that the end all and be all of being saved is not simply to be washed of our sins and to receive God's mercy. We are supposed to go on from there. What did God ask Job? Do you have an arm like God, do you have a voice like God. We were created in the image and likeness of God. We are supposed to express God. Jesus dwells within us. We are supposed to testify, like Paul, that it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me. Christ is "the anointed one", the one who is king of kings and Lord of Lords. God describes Leviathan to Job and makes it very clear that Job has no chance against Leviathan, absolutely no chance. However, God created Leviathan so the point is also that God has no problem dealing with Leviathan. instead of being proud and self righteous, open your eyes, see that we are in a spiritual warfare that we cannot possibly win without Jesus Christ, be filled with Jesus Christ who is the image of the invisible God.

 

[posthuman]

Elihu proclaims that man is repaid by God according to his work, which means for Job that he is suffering because of his sin.

nope, not necessarily.
Elihu has already explained that God uses suffering to teach us, not just as punishment for sin.

Job 33:16-18​

Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction. In order to turn man [from his] deed, And conceal pride from man, He keeps back his soul from the Pit, And his life from perishing by the sword.​

​

Elihu's only criticism of Jobs actions is that he had been proud, that Job had been justifying himself rather than God. he does not accuse Job of sin nor does he say his suffering has been punishment.