Who is Elihu?

[tttallison]

What are your thoughts on the NKJV translation of 33:6?

6Truly I am as your spokesman before God;
I also have been formed out of clay..

I am very negative on the NKJV. From what source did they get their translation. It definitely wasn't the same source as the translators of the KJB.

Do you think "spokesman" captures the essence of what Elihu means?.

No, I believe "wish" captures it best. Job twice desired to have a mediator that would not scare him to death. The NKJV would have you believe Elihu was representing Job, rather than God. Much different than standing in God's place.

The Hebrew word used "ḵə·p̄î·ḵā" has only 1 occurrence in Scripture, making it another hapax legomenon found in the book of Job. Maybe that's why other translators have difficulty translating that verse.

From what manuscript do you derive "ḵə·p̄î·ḵā"?

 

[christophernyc]

I am very negative on the NKJV. From what source did they get their translation. It definitely wasn't the same source as the translators of the KJB.



No, I believe "wish" captures it best. Job twice desired to have a mediator that would not scare him to death. The NKJV would have you believe Elihu was representing Job, rather than God. Much different than standing in God's place.



From what manuscript do you derive "ḵə·p̄î·ḵā"?

Here is what I found on biblehub.com:

Englishman's Concordance
ḵə·p̄î·ḵā — 1 Occurrence
Job 33:6
HEB: הֵן־ אֲנִ֣י כְפִ֣יךָ לָאֵ֑ל מֵ֝חֹ֗מֶר
KJV: Behold, I [am] according to thy wish in God's
INT: Behold to thy wish to God of the clay

Which also shows your conclusion of "wish" with the KJV.

 

[tttallison]

The hate for the three friends, is it deserved?

God's anger was turned on the three friends immediately after Job repented, when Job's eyes were opened. What is it that God is telling the three friends? Doesn't the answer lie in the fact that Job has repented but they have not? Their eyes have not been opened.

God desires that all repent and turn to him, that none may be lost. We should be looking for this theme throughout the Bible.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

The reason God's anger is not pointed at Job as Elihu's anger was, is because Job was not saved when Elihu first spoke, but now, at the end of the book Job is saved. Job was born again. We see this in this last chapter, when everything becomes new. Job is given a whole new life. This is the picture of redemption for those who repent and put on God's righteousness. We become new creatures in God.

 

[Edify]

When God is angry, be rest assured there's sin in the camp.
Job's friends(really?), while acting as his friends were accusing him of sinning & this was their reasoning of his suffering.
While sounding proper & correct, This is the example of 'christianese' people who looks & acts the part, but has no righteousness in them.
These 'friends' are examples that the modern church needs to study closely to investigate their own lives, for christianese are everywhere.
Look at multiple denominations today that have the same services & their clergy dress the same way but inside they're full of wickedness & death.
Just goin' thru the motions. A sounding brass & a tinkling symbols.

 

[tttallison]

When God is angry, be rest assured there's sin in the camp.
Job's friends(really?), while acting as his friends were accusing him of sinning & this was their reasoning of his suffering.
While sounding proper & correct, This is the example of 'christianese' people who looks & acts the part, but has no righteousness in them.
These 'friends' are examples that the modern church needs to study closely to investigate their own lives, for christianese are everywhere.
Look at multiple denominations today that have the same services & their clergy dress the same way but inside they're full of wickedness & death.
Just goin' thru the motions. A sounding brass & a tinkling symbols.

They say you can know a man's character by his friends. There is another saying, "Birds of a feather flock together."

Why not compare scripture to see if you have it right?

God said, Isa 45:9a Woe unto him that strives with his Maker! God said, Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. The word "strives" as found in Isa 45:9 is the same Hebrew word that is translated "contendeth" in Job 40:2.

We both could agree that Job experienced woe. God continues in Isaiah 45:9b Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.

Do you see the picture that scripture presents? Job as a potsherd striving with his three potsherd friends. We are even given a clue when Job sits down and scrapes himself with a potsherd in Job 2:8.

Do you have three friends that would come from a distance when you are in distress, and cry over you. Three friends that would sit in silence seven days and seven nights?

How do you know that the three friends were not right about Job? Who knows you better than your friends?

 

[Edify]

They say you can know a man's character by his friends. There is another saying, "Birds of a feather flock together."

Why not compare scripture to see if you have it right?

God said, Isa 45:9a Woe unto him that strives with his Maker! God said, Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. The word "strives" as found in Isa 45:9 is the same Hebrew word that is translated "contendeth" in Job 40:2.

We both could agree that Job experienced woe. God continues in Isaiah 45:9b Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.

Do you see the picture that scripture presents? Job as a potsherd striving with his three potsherd friends. We are even given a clue when Job sits down and scrapes himself with a potsherd in Job 2:8.

Do you have three friends that would come from a distance when you are in distress, and cry over you. Three friends that would sit in silence seven days and seven nights?

How do you know that the three friends were not right about Job? Who knows you better than your friends?

When God is angry, be rest assured there's sin in the camp.

When God get angry, He judges. They were in bad enough spiritual condition that He was going to judge them IF Job hadn't prayed for them.

 

[tttallison]

When God get angry, He judges. They were in bad enough spiritual condition that He was going to judge them IF Job hadn't prayed for them.

I believe the mark is often missed on this one.

Job had requested that a man might plead with God for his neighbor. I believe Job stated this wishing his friends had pleaded to God for Job, rather than condemning him.

Job 16:20-22 My friends scorn me: but mine eye poureth out tears unto God. O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!

God gave Job the opportunity to plead for his three friends as he had requested for them to do for him. Notice that it was only after Job had pleaded for his friends that God accepted Job.

Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

Note

Job had made numerous offerings for his sons in the beginning, but it was to no avail.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Sometimes some things are just mysteries to us no matter how hard and how much we research them (the mysteries of life).

One day we'll know in full though, just like we are known in full now.

Until that day comes, just embrace it!

Sound advice!!

 

[tttallison]

Sound advice!!
Prognostic said:
Sometimes some things are just mysteries to us no matter how hard and how much we research them (the mysteries of life).

One day we'll know in full though, just like we are known in full now.

Until that day comes, just embrace it!

Jhn5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

 

[tttallison]

If you are angry with the three friends and believe the book leads you in that direction, consider Eliphaz. Eliphaz is the only one in the book of Job whose words have been quoted as scripture.

Eliphaz said, Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

Paul quotes Eliphaz 1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Consider Eliphaz's words in Job 5:11 for they parallel the first two beatitudes spoken by Jesus in Matthew 5:3-4.

Job 5:11a To set up on high those that be low;

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The poor in spirit are those that are those that be low, and they shall be set on high, or the kingdom of heaven.

Job 5:11b that those which mourn may be exalted to safety.

Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

When they are exalted to safety they will be comforted.

Consider Eliphaz's words in chapter four. Job 4:12 Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof. (13)
In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men, (14) Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake. (15) Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: (16) It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying, (17) Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

God said to Job, Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Doesn't the words of God match the words of the spirit, when the spirit said, "Shall mortal man be more just than God?"

God never charged the three friends with what they said, but rather what they did not say. The right thing for them to say was that Job needed to repent and put on God's righteousness.

 

[christophernyc]

I would not recommend John Hartley's sermons on Job.

If you put Job on a pedestal as perfect and always perfect, then you position him as equal to God. That would be above Abraham, Moses, David, and every other character in the bible.

When you try and make the Bible fit your narrative you will always get it wrong.

God chastises Job for four chapters, and only after Job repents does God's position on Job change.

Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

In chapter 41 God introduces Job to Satan and asks Job if he is going to take him for a servant forever. Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant forever?

Who else besides Satan beholds all things? Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

This is how it started out, with Satan beholding a meeting between God and his sons. Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

What is your opinion of what James says about Job in James 5:10-11? Can you share your thoughts on this verse?

10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

 

[tttallison]

What is your opinion of what James says about Job in James 5:10-11? Can you share your thoughts on this verse?

10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

James speaks of Job as a brother and prophet. I do not believe that Job was a descendant of Jacob, but rather Esau, but we are not told. In regard to being a prophet, Job said many prophetical things, but so did Eliphaz.

In regard to Job having patience, he certainly did. Job lost all his children and all his possessions and still blessed God. How many of us would have done that. It would seem like Job lost some of that patience after the second test, when he cursed his day. To me this is a bit of an enigma. The patience James is referring to must be the way Job held onto God and would not let go, similar to Jacob.

Gen 32:24-30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

 

[christophernyc]

James speaks of Job as a brother and prophet. I do not believe that Job was a descendant of Jacob, but rather Esau, but we are not told. In regard to being a prophet, Job said many prophetical things, but so did Eliphaz.

What prophetic things did Job say?

 

[tttallison]

What prophetic things did Job say?

I believe I was in error when I said many. Had not thought it through. Job said, Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! Job 19:24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

I believe I would be hard pressed to find many more.

You know we have no idea of the last 140 years of Job. Maybe James had information we lack today.

Job was without knowledge until the last chapter, so maybe I spoke out of turn.

 

[christophernyc]

I believe I was in error when I said many. Had not thought it through. Job said, Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! Job 19:24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

I believe I would be hard pressed to find many more.

You know we have no idea of the last 140 years of Job. Maybe James had information we lack today.

Job was without knowledge until the last chapter, so maybe I spoke out of turn.

So you believe Job 19:25 is prophetic. Is Job's prophecy correct?

 

[lrs68]

So you believe Job 19:25 is prophetic. Is Job's prophecy correct?

I believe going back to Adam and the Tree of Life within the Garden symbolized to them a future Messiah.

We see that in the understanding of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, the High Priests and the Prophets. Job would have known this as well.

In the example of how Job was offering Sacrifice, and himself not a High Priest or he went to a High Priest reveals Job most likely happened before the LAW came into existence because there's no mention of the LAW by Job, Elihu, Job's friends, or God. But we know from the first couple Chapters that Job offered Sacrifice to protect his children and probably himself and family.

So job knowing that Sacrifice was important surely understood what the coming Redeemer would mean.

 

[tttallison]

So you believe Job 19:25 is prophetic. Is Job's prophecy correct?

Not sure how to answer that. Are you asking me if it already happened, or are you asking me if I believe it to be true?

I was taking Jame's implication that Job was a prophet.

 

[christophernyc]

Not sure how to answer that. Are you asking me if it already happened, or are you asking me if I believe it to be true?

I was taking Jame's implication that Job was a prophet.

Sorry, I was just trying to clarify. Was wondering if you meant Job's prophecy was accurate or not. That's all. Do you think he was right in what he said in 19:25?

 

[tttallison]

Sorry, I was just trying to clarify. Was wondering if you meant Job's prophecy was accurate or not. That's all. Do you think he was right in what he said in 19:25?

Yes, but then I see the latter day as a different age.

 

[christophernyc]

Yes, but then I see the latter day as a different age.

Thank you. The reason I was trying to clarify was because of something else you wrote. This is from you post #244 in your other thread:

"All of Job"s words up to chapter 38 were condemned by God.
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

You wrote that all of Job's words before chapter 38 were condemned by God. So does that also include the verse from Job 19:25?