Who is Elihu?

[Pilgrimshope]

and both Elihu and God rebuke him for it.



Christ is God, and not forsaken by God. He sang the Psalm 'the hind of the morning' in which Israel is the hind, who thinks it is forsaken, but is not.

that's a very interesting correlation with Job, but a key difference is that Jesus was never for an instant ignorant, but Job was throughout. in fact God didn't even tell Job about the events in the company of the angels that preceded all these things - He simply said, more or less, who do you think you are to question Me?

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Written in the psalms

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? ….Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

…For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones:

They look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭22:1, 7-8, 15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

fulfilled in the gospel

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:46‬ ‭

“Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:41-43‬ ‭


“And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:35‬ ‭

 

[christophernyc]

and both Elihu and God rebuke him for it.

Why do you say God rebuked Job? God is gracious to Job, asking him questions. When God arrives, it's the most comfort Job has experienced the entire story. Job expresses comfort at the end, too, when he states he has now seen God with his own eyes.

Christ is God, and not forsaken by God. He sang the Psalm 'the hind of the morning' in which Israel is the hind, who thinks it is forsaken, but is not.

that's a very interesting correlation with Job, but a key difference is that Jesus was never for an instant ignorant, but Job was throughout. in fact God didn't even tell Job about the events in the company of the angels that preceded all these things - He simply said, more or less, who do you think you are to question Me?

Job is not perfect like Jesus, of course, but Job's experience overwhelmingly depicts the coming of the perfect One, specifically in His suffering for our sins. Whether Jesus sang that Psalm or stated it, the cry is profoundly similar to Job's cry to God. Job's ordeal is a testimony of the Christ to come later.

 

[christophernyc]

who wrote the book of Job?

no one knows, and every guess is speculation. one historical perspective is that Elihu is actually the author.

others think Elihu's dialogue was a later addition, but only because the style and language is less complex - - which would equally be explained by him being a much younger man without quite the vocabulary and poise of the older men whose conversations take up most of the book.

Another possibility I have seen presented is that Moses wrote it.

I have heard this view that Elihu may be the author, too. On that note, isn't it interesting in how the author introduces Elihu and how Elihu introduces himself? The author says Elihu is "full of anger" and mentions his anger 4 times, which is significant. But when Elihu introduces himself, he *claims* to be inspired by God. So why doesn't the author say that Elihu is inspired by God? Being angry and being inspired are not necessarily the same thing. It seems to me Elihu *claims* to be inspired as a way to hide or excuse his anger. Yet another way he is trying to deceive everyone.

 

[posthuman]

Why do you say God rebuked Job? God is gracious to Job, asking him questions. When God arrives, it's the most comfort Job has experienced the entire story. Job expresses comfort at the end, too, when he states he has now seen God with his own eyes.

Job 40:1-8​

Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said: ​

"Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? ​

He who rebukes God, let him answer it."​

Then Job answered the LORD and said: ​

"Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; yes, twice, but I will proceed no further." ​

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: ​

"Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me: Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?" ​

​

God says Job has thought to rebuke Him, to correct Him - accusing God of wrongdoing.
this doesn't cause Job to feel 'comfort' it makes him feel absolutely vile and worthless, to hate himself and repent.

God accuses Job of condemning Him in order to justify himself, then goes on and on grilling Job with rhetorical questions that demonstrate Jobs utter ignorance, frailty and powerlessness.
God humiliates him.

and Job hates himself for this, and repents in dust in ashes. it doesn't make Job feel good, it makes him feel small and full of regret.

 

[posthuman]

The author says Elihu is "full of anger" and mentions his anger 4 times, which is significant. But when Elihu introduces himself, he *claims* to be inspired by God. So why doesn't the author say that Elihu is inspired by God?

anger is not sin.

Psalms 4:4​

Be angry, and do not sin. ​

​

Psalms 7:11​

God is a just judge, ​

and God is angry with the wicked every day. ​

 

[posthuman]

On that note, isn't it interesting in how the author introduces Elihu and how Elihu introduces himself?

isn't it interesting he is the only person in the book with an Hebrew name? a relative of Abraham?

and why Jobs gentile friends stopped answering - 32:1 - because Job "was righteous in his own eyes"

this quality is what angered Elihu and caused him to speak, and it is a quality Job no longer had when God spoke: Job no longer is righteous in his own eyes, but repents - 42:6 - repents of what?

so, what angered Elihu in Job, God removes from Job. this doesn't present itself in the text as an unfounded anger, but a righteous one.

 

[christophernyc]

the character of Elihu is extremely mysterious and there has never been a settled, orthodox view of him

your criticism is firmly rooted in Christian and Jewish history, but so also is my admiration.

for the purposes of this thread i think it's really beautiful that you and i have this discussion about him - giving two sides of one of the most enigmatic people in scripture

Thank you. Yes! 1000%. The feeling is mutual. I believe there can be healthy debate here, and I am grateful for the dialogue.

And just to be clear, my intention is not to be some provocateur on this matter. I sincerely wanted to understand this story as a whole and try and figure out what was happening in light of the Gospel. Trying to figure out Elihu was a big part of that. In fact, I think the enigmatic nature of his character is by design, as if it's what the author intended. I say that because when the reader arrives at chapter 32 and is introduced to this new character, it's natural to think, "Hey, where did this guy come from? We are nearing the end of the story and now there's someone new we have not heard of yet?" That seems intentionally dramatic, as if the author is provoking us (in a good way) to really look at him. So it seems appropriate to discuss, debate and dissect him for the purpose of understanding the story and consider what God wants to reveal to us.

Also, one more thing I will point out is how the story is written. It is very different than other books of the bible in that it is very much structured as a play. If you have ever read any ancient plays, such as Antigone by Sophocles, for example, you will find the structure is very much the same. The difference is the narration in the book of Job, but that is minimal compared to the overwhelming bulk of the story, which involves speeches and characters in dialogue with each other.

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 29 verse 27, Luke 16 verse 15b ~ The righteous detest the dishonest; the wicked detest the upright. What is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Thank you for the inspiration, dear brother posthuman... I did not care for the face on the first one and so have redone it and hope you like it better also! .

 

[posthuman]

Also, one more thing I will point out is how the story is written. It is very different than other books of the bible in that it is very much structured as a play. If you have ever read any ancient plays, such as Antigone by Sophocles, for example, you will find the structure is very much the same. The difference is the narration in the book of Job, but that is minimal compared to the overwhelming bulk of the story, which involves speeches and characters in dialogue with each other.

this is germane to something i tried to touch on earlier; if you look at Elihu's position in the narrative - - there are three main sections, and he is the argue between the center and the last.

we begin with God and Satan disputing in the presence of the assembly of the angels.
then we have the discussion of the mortal men, Job and his three companions.
finally we have God speaking, with a brief epilogue.

so, the structure is divinity, mortality, divinity. and Elihu is the segue between mortal men and the words of holy God - he summarizes what man has said, criticizes it and glorifies God, and his diatribe is full of distinct precursors to what God Himself says immediately afterward.

he's like a signpost, alerting the reader to the futility of all the dozens of chapters of human speech, pointing at God as the final act. like a mediator, between man and God. like a prophet bringing the message of God and pointing to Him.

his placement in the narrative - if we think of it as a play - is one of honor and import. he sums up all the dramatic energy and focuses it on the glory of God, setting the stage - preparing the way - for the LORD to finish the story.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Yes, after the whirlwind arrives, Elihu is not heard from or mentioned again. Some people assume Elihu is still there, but where is the evidence for that view?

If the Elihu words were full of knowledge as some are saying, then maybe those who agree can answer Elihu’s question to Job. Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God. Doest thou know when God disposed them and caused the light of his cloud to shine?”

Or maybe answer the question asked of Elihu’s “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding.”

Again the LORD speaks out of the whirlwind saying, ‘Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproves God, let him answer it.”

When Job answered, then answered the LORD unto Job out of the cloud, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

The LORD had said of Job, that “there was none like him in the flesh, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil”

Then Job answered the LORD “ therefore have I uttered that I understood not;”

So why isn’t Elihu mentioned, after the whirlwind, “As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more.” Proverbs 10:25

 

[posthuman]

So why isn’t Elihu mentioned, after the whirlwind, “As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more.” Proverbs 10:25

Job 1:6​

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.​

why aren't the angels mentioned?

is it logical to presume that they have all been destroyed, since they were mentioned in chapter 1 but weren't mentioned in chapter 42?

no, it is not.

 

[Magenta]

So why isn’t Elihu mentioned, after the whirlwind, “As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more.” Proverbs 10:25

Proverbs 10 verse 25~ When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more, but the righteous has an everlasting foundation.

 

[christophernyc]

this is germane to something i tried to touch on earlier; if you look at Elihu's position in the narrative - - there are three main sections, and he is the argue between the center and the last.

we begin with God and Satan disputing in the presence of the assembly of the angels.
then we have the discussion of the mortal men, Job and his three companions.
finally we have God speaking, with a brief epilogue.

so, the structure is divinity, mortality, divinity. and Elihu is the segue between mortal men and the words of holy God - he summarizes what man has said, criticizes it and glorifies God, and his diatribe is full of distinct precursors to what God Himself says immediately afterward.

he's like a signpost, alerting the reader to the futility of all the dozens of chapters of human speech, pointing at God as the final act. like a mediator, between man and God. like a prophet bringing the message of God and pointing to Him.

his placement in the narrative - if we think of it as a play - is one of honor and import. he sums up all the dramatic energy and focuses it on the glory of God, setting the stage - preparing the way - for the LORD to finish the story.

Yes, I understand there is a logic to this breakdown and interpretation of Elihu. One can most definitely build a case for him in this way. It is a strong argument, and one that I considered, too, albeit not with all the fine points you put on it here. I believe there is reason to consider Elihu in this way.

However, once the veil was pulled back, I could not unsee another conclusive interpretation. Everything you have said would be well and good if Elihu was right and if his intentions and motivations were good. The problem is he does not actually appear to be right or good, despite his many unconfirmed claims.

Here is another example I can point to:

In Job 34:35 Elihu says, "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom."

Yes, Job speaks without knowledge - without understanding why he is suffering this ordeal. True. But then Elihu *accuses* Job of speaking without wisdom. That is false. Chapter 29 is described by many as the Poem on Wisdom, and is attributed to Job. Yes, Job does have wisdom. Elihu is not speaking the truth here. Also, Job says in 19:25 that he knows his Redeemer lives, and will one day stand up on the earth. This is a profound statement that speaks of Christ Jesus to come. This is astonishing wisdom from Job, and yet Elihu discards everything Job has said and trashes everything about Job's character.

In Job 34:36 Elihu says "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men."

Tried to the end? Elihu is wishing perpetual punishment on Job. This is purely sadistic. How can anyone support this notion of Elihu's? Also, he wants Job tortured because Job's "answers for wicked men"? Does God level this kind of accusation against Job? What I do see is God saying Job has spoken rightly about Him (God).

In Job 34:37 Elihu says, "For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God."

I've asked this before, but what "sin" is Job adding his rebellion to? The entire premise for everything Elihu says is based on Elihu's (wrong) conclusion that Job has sinned in some way to cause this evil to befall him. Yet we all know from the outset that is not the case, as clearly spelled out in chapters 1 & 2. God Himself says it is *without cause*.

The more one looks at what Elihu is *actually* saying and what his intentions are, the more you will find they are in opposition and contrary to what God says.

Again, if he was speaking the truth and had good intentions, then yes, I would agree with you. However, what has been discovered is that he is not speaking the truth, and does not have good intentions toward Job. There are more examples I can provide, but my reply is already too long.

 

[christophernyc]

So why isn’t Elihu mentioned, after the whirlwind, “As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more.” Proverbs 10:25[/QUOTE]

What's interesting is that Elihu may have even foreshadowed this idea in his own words in Job 32:22. This could very well be evidence that supports the idea Elihu is "no more" after the whirlwind appears. I will copy various versions of the verse here:

KJV - For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

CSB - For I do not know how to give such titles; otherwise, my Maker would remove me in an instant.

CJB - I don’t know how to flatter; if I did, my maker would soon put an end to me.

EHV - because I do not know how to pass out flattering titles. If I did so, my Maker would quickly carry me away.

GNV - For I may not give titles, lest my Maker should take me away suddenly.

HCSB - For I do not know how to give such titles; otherwise, my Maker would remove me in an instant.

ISV - since I don’t know the first thing about how to flatter; and the one who made me would sweep me away as if I were nothing.

Very interesting that Elihu is aware that he *could* be destroyed in this way. It's almost like a prediction. And if anyone is wondering about the flattery part of this verse, the answer is yes. Elihu does flatter. He flatters himself, repeatedly.

 

[posthuman]

What's interesting is that Elihu may have even foreshadowed this idea in his own words in Job 32:22. This could very well be evidence that supports the idea Elihu is "no more" after the whirlwind appears. I will copy various versions of the verse here:

KJV - For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

CSB - For I do not know how to give such titles; otherwise, my Maker would remove me in an instant.

CJB - I don’t know how to flatter; if I did, my maker would soon put an end to me.

EHV - because I do not know how to pass out flattering titles. If I did so, my Maker would quickly carry me away.

GNV - For I may not give titles, lest my Maker should take me away suddenly.

HCSB - For I do not know how to give such titles; otherwise, my Maker would remove me in an instant.

ISV - since I don’t know the first thing about how to flatter; and the one who made me would sweep me away as if I were nothing.

Very interesting that Elihu is aware that he *could* be destroyed in this way. It's almost like a prediction. And if anyone is wondering about the flattery part of this verse, the answer is yes. Elihu does flatter. He flatters himself, repeatedly.

so you think he flattered Job or his friends?

 

[posthuman]

In Job 34:36 Elihu says "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men."

context here - -

Job 34:34-37​

"Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: ​

'Job speaks without knowledge, His words [are] without wisdom. Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because [his] answers [are like] those of wicked men! For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps [his hands] among us, And multiplies his words against God.'" ​

​

it reads to me as tho Elihu is saying, this is what Jobs friends say about him.
wise men who are listening to him, say this.

 

[posthuman]

Elihu's objection is that Job should be patient in his troubles and glorify God instead of complaining that he did not deserve them. not that Job has sinned, but that complaining about his adversity is not righteous.

Jobs friends objection is that they believe Job deserves his troubles because he has sinned, and that he adds rebellion to his sin by complaining and rebelliously refuses to confess it.

fundamentally different, and 34:34-37 does not match Elihu's argument: it matches the position of Jobs friends, with whom Elihu ((and God)) is also angry, because they accuse Job of sin while finding no sin in him.

 

[Magenta]

context here - -

Job 34:34-37​

"Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: ​

'Job speaks without knowledge, His words [are] without wisdom. Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because [his] answers [are like] those of wicked men! For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps [his hands] among us, And multiplies his words against God.'" ​

​

it reads to me as tho Elihu is saying, this is what Jobs friends say about him.
wise men who are listening to him, say this.

That makes sense. Hey, I am only kind of sort of following along, your convo is quite in depth and over my head LOL although I have started listening to Job on my phone as a result of your convo, and I also designed another Job panel (I have very few of them!).

Job 4 verses 17-20 Can a mortal be more righteous than God, or a man more pure than his Maker? If God puts no trust in His servants, and He charges His angels with error, how much more those who dwell in houses of clay, whose foundations are in the dust, who can be crushed like a moth! They are smashed to pieces from dawn to dusk; unnoticed, they perish forever.

 

[christophernyc]

so you think he flattered Job or his friends?

Not sure if you saw the end of my post, but I addressed who I think Elihu flatters, and I did not indicate that he flatters Job or his friends. However, now that you bring it up, Job 34:2 seems to indicate he does try and flatter Job's friends.

Job 34:2 "Hear my words, O ye wise men; and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge."

He says he won't flatter anyone, but then he refers to Job's friends as "wise men". Why would he do that after his harsh criticism of them in chapter 32? Seems like he is trying to flatter them to win their favor and get them to side with him (Elihu) against Job.

As for Job, that's a hard no. He definitely does not try to flatter Job. In fact, he does the opposite. Others have pointed out how Elihu repeatedly uses Job's name, implying a severe lack of respect for Job. They compared this to how Job's friends talk to him, despite the fact that they are arguing with him, too.

 

[christophernyc]

context here - -

Job 34:34-37​

"Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: ​

'Job speaks without knowledge, His words [are] without wisdom. Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because [his] answers [are like] those of wicked men! For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps [his hands] among us, And multiplies his words against God.'" ​

​

it reads to me as tho Elihu is saying, this is what Jobs friends say about him.
wise men who are listening to him, say this.

Yes, context. I have seen 34:34 read this way elsewhere, too. However, I would refer to a few verses earlier in Elihu's speech in 34:2. He is speaking in the presence of Job and his 3 friends when he says in 34:2 "Hear my words, O ye wise men; and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge." It reads as he is speaking directly to them, telling them to listen to him.

So following in that context, on the heels of 34:2, it seems Elihu is still addressing those present when he says in 34:34 "Let men of understanding tell me, and let a wise man hearken unto me." Elihu is presenting his argument and trying to win others to his point of view. He flatters them by calling them "wise" in verse 2 and then seems to imply in verse 34 that "if" they are wise, they will agree with him. It appears he is trying to strong arm the argument, first with flattery, then by bullying, which all boils down to manipulation.

Considering Elihu is there present with Job and his friends, it makes more sense to me that what he is saying is in reference to them.

Here are some other translations of 34:34 for reference for us:

KJ21 "Let men of understanding tell me, and let a wise man hearken unto me."

DRA "Let men of understanding speak to me, and let a wise man hearken to me."

EASY "Wise people will agree with me. When they hear my words, they will say,"

EXB “Those ·who understand [with sense] speak, and the wise who hear me say,"

GNT "Any sensible person will surely agree; and the wise who hear me will say"

ICB "Men who understand speak. And wise men who hear me say,"

ISV "Men of understanding, speak to me! Are any of you men wise? Then listen to me!"

Here is another one:

Let every wise man who hears me now, and
Those with understanding, say it with me :
"Job speaks without knowledge, and all of his
Words are without any understanding."