Who is Elihu?
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i agree.
Elihu was angry because Job justified himself instead of God, and God seems to be of the same mind
Elihu was angry because Job justified himself instead of God, and God seems to be of the same mind
Job 40:2
Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it.
Job 40:8
Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?
Job answers wisely. he does not reject Elihu's rebuke, and he confesses to God when commanded to answer, that he spoke ignorantly; he lays his hand over his mouth, abhors himself and repents. -
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actully God lambasts Job with question after questioned designed to humiliate him. for example:
this is exactly Elihu's criticism of Job as well - who chided Job not to think to question God, even in his trials, even when they made no sense to him - specifically because Job, a man, is far beneath God and comparatively ignorant.
God in turn relentlessly accosts Job with the stark contrast of his mortal inadequacy and the LORD's omniscient, limitless power - including explicitly accusing Job of thinking to justify himself by accusing God, exacothe same thing which angered Elihu.
and the other thing which angered Elihu? that Jobs friends had found no basis, but accused Job regardless. the LORD says the same: that they had spoken falsely of Job.
christoph, i don't understand why you think Elihu is wicked. i think he is a picture of Christ here, his dialogue being placed between the words of men and the words of God, and mediating, and declaring the words of God before the judgement is spoken.
Job 38:21
Do you know it, because you were born then, or because the number of your days is great?
not just questions that Job obviously can't answer, but biting, sarcastic criticism of the posture Job has taken, as though Job by complaining God seemed to have treated him unfairly, was making himself equal to God. ((precisely the opposite of the advice in Philippians))this is exactly Elihu's criticism of Job as well - who chided Job not to think to question God, even in his trials, even when they made no sense to him - specifically because Job, a man, is far beneath God and comparatively ignorant.
God in turn relentlessly accosts Job with the stark contrast of his mortal inadequacy and the LORD's omniscient, limitless power - including explicitly accusing Job of thinking to justify himself by accusing God, exacothe same thing which angered Elihu.
and the other thing which angered Elihu? that Jobs friends had found no basis, but accused Job regardless. the LORD says the same: that they had spoken falsely of Job.
christoph, i don't understand why you think Elihu is wicked. i think he is a picture of Christ here, his dialogue being placed between the words of men and the words of God, and mediating, and declaring the words of God before the judgement is spoken.
Elihu is angered by people justifying themselves before men at God's expense, and making accusations even while they fully know they have found no fault.
so is God:
so is God:
Luke 16:15
He said to them,
"You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God."
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He says what’s made him mad in tbe text
“So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram:
against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.”
Job 32:1-4 KJV
the most imposing question there to me is what is the kindred ram ? Sounds like some sort of ancient cult or something
“So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram:
against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.”
Job 32:1-4 KJV
the most imposing question there to me is what is the kindred ram ? Sounds like some sort of ancient cult or something
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I do not believe Elihu is evil because he wants to reason with men. The comparison is that Job actively seeks God's counsel throughout his ordeal (in addition to reasoning with his friends) while Elihu does not. The friends are never shown seeking God or praying to God either even though they are also in the dark. Compare that to Jesus, who although he knew He would do things like feed the five thousand or raise Lazarus from the dead was found praying to God the Father. I think those who view Elihu as a type of Jesus are being deceived.
I could not agree with you more about the OT being full of the testimony of Jesus Christ, as Jesus Himself states in John 5:39 and in Luke 24:27. Totally on the same page with you there. The difference we have is that, it seems, you believe Jesus is revealed through Elihu in the story of Job. Is that right? Is that your belief?
To answer your second question here about what has upset Elihu, here is what it says:
Job 32:2 (NASB) his anger burned becausehe justified himself before God.
Job does defend that he has done nothing wrong to warrant his present suffering. This is accurate, as spelled out in chapters 1 & 2. God even says explicitly that Job's suffering was *without cause*. So Job saying he is innocent in this ordeal is true, and Job is even willing to bring his argument before God. If Job had admitted he had sinned, like his friends urged him to, then that would actually be a sin because it would not be true.
When it comes to exalting God, look at chapter 9 again where Job talks a lot about how much greater God is than him.
Job 32:2 (NASB) his anger burned becausehe justified himself before God.
Job does defend that he has done nothing wrong to warrant his present suffering. This is accurate, as spelled out in chapters 1 & 2. God even says explicitly that Job's suffering was *without cause*. So Job saying he is innocent in this ordeal is true, and Job is even willing to bring his argument before God. If Job had admitted he had sinned, like his friends urged him to, then that would actually be a sin because it would not be true.
When it comes to exalting God, look at chapter 9 again where Job talks a lot about how much greater God is than him.
Again, do you notice that God speaks with questions compared to Elihu who speaks in harsh accusations?
In both instances, Job effectively answers God with "no". Notice this is the *opposite* response that was predicted by satan in chapters 1 & 2. That was the premise for the trial Job has been enduring, and as we see Job clearly did not curse God to His face.
In both instances, Job effectively answers God with "no". Notice this is the *opposite* response that was predicted by satan in chapters 1 & 2. That was the premise for the trial Job has been enduring, and as we see Job clearly did not curse God to His face.
Thank you for your response here. Foundationally, I believe we agree on so many other things, but when it comes to Elihu, it seems that there is something terribly wrong. As for finding the testimony of Jesus Christ in the story of Job, I would disagree that it's found in Elihu. Instead, I see the testimony of Jesus in the character of Job, a righteous man who suffers unjustly. All throughout the story, Job is crying out to God asking where God is and why this is happening to him. Consider Jesus words on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" It's a striking parallel.
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maybe a reference to this? - -
Genesis 22:20-23
Now it came to pass after these things that it was told Abraham, saying, "Indeed Milcah also has borne children to your brother Nahor: Huz his firstborn, Buz his brother, Kemuel the father of Aram, Chesed, Hazo, Pildash, Jidlaph, and Bethuel." And Bethuel begot Rebekah. These eight Milcah bore to Nahor, Abraham's brother.
Ram could be Aram, so, Elihu related to Abraham through his brother Nahor?-
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and both Elihu and God rebuke him for it.
Christ is God, and not forsaken by God. He sang the Psalm 'the hind of the morning' in which Israel is the hind, who thinks it is forsaken, but is not.
that's a very interesting correlation with Job, but a key difference is that Jesus was never for an instant ignorant, but Job was throughout. in fact God didn't even tell Job about the events in the company of the angels that preceded all these things - He simply said, more or less, who do you think you are to question Me?
Christ is God, and not forsaken by God. He sang the Psalm 'the hind of the morning' in which Israel is the hind, who thinks it is forsaken, but is not.
that's a very interesting correlation with Job, but a key difference is that Jesus was never for an instant ignorant, but Job was throughout. in fact God didn't even tell Job about the events in the company of the angels that preceded all these things - He simply said, more or less, who do you think you are to question Me?
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who wrote the book of Job?
no one knows, and every guess is speculation. one historical perspective is that Elihu is actually the author.
others think Elihu's dialogue was a later addition, but only because the style and language is less complex - - which would equally be explained by him being a much younger man without quite the vocabulary and poise of the older men whose conversations take up most of the book.
no one knows, and every guess is speculation. one historical perspective is that Elihu is actually the author.
others think Elihu's dialogue was a later addition, but only because the style and language is less complex - - which would equally be explained by him being a much younger man without quite the vocabulary and poise of the older men whose conversations take up most of the book.
the character of Elihu is extremely mysterious and there has never been a settled, orthodox view of him
your criticism is firmly rooted in Christian and Jewish history, but so also is my admiration.
for the purposes of this thread i think it's really beautiful that you and i have this discussion about him - giving two sides of one of the most enigmatic people in scripture
your criticism is firmly rooted in Christian and Jewish history, but so also is my admiration.
for the purposes of this thread i think it's really beautiful that you and i have this discussion about him - giving two sides of one of the most enigmatic people in scripture
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in ch. 40 v.2 & 8 God challenges Job with exactly the same things that upset Elihu - - and they are not unfounded; Job in ch. 9 for example laments that he could not bring his case before God even if he was right, complaining that there is no mediator - as tho the 'system is rigged' against him.
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