Where do believers go after death?
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Because all you are doing is misinterpreting what those Scriptures mean.
Why aren't you posting the Scriptures which confirm that all the saints are very much alive and awake in Heaven? Because that would demolish your false doctrine (in this instance).
We all know that sleep is a metaphor for death, but Soul Sleep is a BOGUS AND FALSE DOCTRINE. That is why the Soul Sleep proponents hate the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus and call it a parable. But since parables always represent some other spiritual reality, these naysayers never tell us exactly what that narrative represents (other than what is revealed).
Why aren't you posting the Scriptures which supposedly confirm that all the saints are very much alive and awake in Heaven, and have been since their death? Are there any??? I very much doubt it, since Jesus said nobody had ascended to heaven except Him Who came from heaven. Guess what I find when I look that up? People like you saying what Jesus said was not true! People like you calling Jesus a liar.
I haven't seen any of these phantom Scriptures from you so far, just your usual bluster, blather, and lies (such as, I hate the account of the rich man and Lazarus? Wow! Where do you come up with this stuff???), which I am quite familiar with. Please provide as many or more Scriptures that have dead people walking around alive, awake, and aware in heaven as there are Scriptures attesting to death being as sleep that people will be awakened from at the resurrection. Keep in mind that paradise is not heaven, so don't even think of trying to trick me with the today you will be with me in paradise line, for Jesus did not ascend to the Father in heaven until after being in the grave for three days and nights.
Paradise being heaven or not is not what we are discussing here and it doesn't really matter where they went, what we get from that story is that they were conscious wherever they went and not just 'sleeping'. So, it is a valid point and we will keep quoting it.
Paul had you in mind when he wrote this:
1 Cor 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Note; Paul is actually addressing people who thought resurrection is a mega event in some distant future, otherewise he would have said "..if the dead will not be raised..". Resurrection is here and now according to Paul and i'll reiterate to you Magenta:
"...But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can... you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, my preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, i'm then found to be false witnesses about God, for i have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Another one:
Jonah 2:
1From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God. 2He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.
3You hurled me into the depths,
into the very heart of the seas,
and the currents swirled about me;
all your waves and breakers
swept over me.
4I said, ‘I have been banished
from your sight;
yet I will look again
toward your holy temple.’
5The engulfing waters threatened me,a
the deep surrounded me;
seaweed was wrapped around my head.
6To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, Lord my God,
brought my life up from the pit.
Jonah was not just 'sleeping' and he is not describing the belly of the fish but sheol, where he was.
Jonah 2:
1From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God. 2He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.
3You hurled me into the depths,
into the very heart of the seas,
and the currents swirled about me;
all your waves and breakers
swept over me.
4I said, ‘I have been banished
from your sight;
yet I will look again
toward your holy temple.’
5The engulfing waters threatened me,a
the deep surrounded me;
seaweed was wrapped around my head.
6To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, Lord my God,
brought my life up from the pit.
Jonah was not just 'sleeping' and he is not describing the belly of the fish but sheol, where he was.
Gosh, you quoted a Scripture that has Paul affirming that people have fallen asleep (i.e., died) in Christ, and you think it hurts my case? You also seem to be denying the day of judgment, when all shall be raised at the end of this age, some to everlasting life, and some to pass into the second and final death. Nehemiah also denies other Scriptural truths relative to the life to come following the resurrection. I see a pattern here...
Paul is saying if Christ did not resurrect, our faith is in vain. He has not in any way said anything that contradicts what I believe... in fact, he affirms it. Also, the constant use of a single parable to try to overthrow a multitude of other Scriptures does not fly in my books. Line by line, precept by precept, works for me.
Nope. Paul doesn't mean what you think he means- the resurrection that Paul is talking about is now not a 24 hour day in the distant future. I don't deny judgement day, at the very end will be resurrection for the unbelievers but not believers.
I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.
Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.
Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."
All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.
Nobody is going to heaven. Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. At least until the 1000 years are over. But even then New Jerusalem will be here.
Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. Rev. 5:10: "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
From this, we can deduce nobody is in heaven and nobody is going there.
Of course they say what they have received from the hijacked Catholic church because they are the daughters of the great whore. Constantine hijacked Christianity in the fourth century and antichrist has dictated doctrine for next approximately 1700 years.
Paul said exactly what I said he did, and how you can deny it is beyond me. It is the Word of God: if Christ is not risen, our faith is in vain. AND, he made reference to those who had fallen asleep in Christ, falling asleep being a metaphor for death as used over and over and over again by a multitude of those who penned Scriptures. Jesus spoke of death as sleep, as well as Daniel, Job, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul... Then again, you pretended earlier that all I did was post a bunch of Scriptures with the word "sleep" in them as if they were not specifically related to the state of death. Truly I tire of the dishonest tactics of others.
Why do people repeatedly MISINTERPRET this verse?
1. Jesus was speaking about Himself as the one who supernaturally descended from Heaven (at His birth) and also supernatural ascended to Heaven (after His resurrection). This was unique in that Jesus was and is "the Lord from Heaven". At the same time He also said "...the Son of Man which is in Heaven", thereby confirming that "I am in the Father, and the Father in me". Meaning that even though He was on earth, He was present in the Spirit in Heaven with the Father and the Holy Spirit. All of this is totally unique about Christ.
At the same time, this statement did NOT mean that Enoch and Elijah did not go to Heaven. It simply meant that everything about Christ was totally unique. The Bible plainly tells us that Elijah did indeed go to Heaven, and the Bible also implies that Enoch went to Heaven because "God took him", and God is in Heaven.
2. Those who deny that anybody is in Heaven blatantly CONTRADICT the Bible and support the cults. Now please read this passage carefully and then retract your nonsensical statement:
HEBREWS 12
22 But ye are come [PRESENT TENSE] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, [THE NT SAINTS] and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [THE OT SAINTS]
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
So what is God revealing to us through Paul?
I. The New Jerusalem is a heavenly city, and is presently in Heaven (as it was when Paul was writing this).
II. The occupants of the New Jerusalem are presently:
1. AN INNUMERABLE COMPANY OF ANGELS
2. THE NEW TESTAMENT SAINTS (called the general assembly and church of the firstborn)
3. GOD THE FATHER (God the Judge of all)
4. THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS (called the spirits of just men made perfect)
5. THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant)
6. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SPRINKLED ON THE MERCY SEAT (called the blood of sprinkling)
In view of this, anyone who claims that nobody is in Heaven is lying through his teeth.
I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.
Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.
Acts 2:29: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."
All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.
Nobody is going to heaven. Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. At least until the 1000 years are over. But even then New Jerusalem will be here.
Heaven (the Kingdom of) is coming to earth. Rev. 5:10: "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
From this, we can deduce nobody is in heaven and nobody is going there.
Nobody had ascended to heaven, i also didn't expect anybody to ascend to heaven before Jesus had atoned for their sins but the moment Jesus died, saints were resurrected. The thief that was crucified with Jesus was in Paradise that very day as per Jesus's promise.
Heaven is not empty, heaven is right here on earth within the hearts of believers and that's where saints live, judging the earth dwellers together with Jesus. If it happens that you die today, your soul will be resurrected after 3 days and you will indwell a living believer here on earth- that is how you join the joyful assembly.
Heb 12: 22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Paul does not say "..you will go.." , he says "..you have come..".
Eph 2:21 In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Himyou too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.
The New Jerusalem is being built now, not future, it is the kingdom of God that Jesus said is in our midst.
New Jerusalem does not yet exist. The general assembly consists of only names written in heaven for a yet future city. You are twisting this to say something it doesn't.
Here is your only reference to immediately being in paradise:
Luke 23:43: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
The original Greek did not have punctuation. So we can move the comma, and it reads differently. That is why the Lord doesn’t allow us to draw doctrine on one witness.
Luke 23:43: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Nope.
Paul says:
1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
And this is exactly what i had explained earlier as to why the word 'sleep' is used instead of death. It is with respect to those that remain behind so as to give them hope of uniting with those that have departed. The word doesn't mean unconsciousness.
In the resurrection sequence, Paul is counting himself as part of those that are alive and remain behind- meaning that resurrection is a continuous thing.
Again:
2 Cor 4:13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.”b Since we have that same spirit ofc faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself.
Paul here counts himself amongst that that sleep and resurrected to be caught up together with the listeners in Corinth. Again, resurrection is being portrayed as a continuous thing and not some future mega event.
Finally, someone has offered to explain.
The original Greek did not have punctuation- i agree. You must also agree with me that in the original Greek, comas could not be moved to give a text a non existent meaning. It is cheating to say that there was no punctuation only to fix a punctuation where you prefer or to suit a narrative.
Let's look at the surrounding text for more details:
Luke 23:
40But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.d ”
So, the thief had a specific request, to be in the kingdom of God. When does the kingdom of God come?
Matt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go,preach this message: ‘- The kingdom of heaven is near.’
Luke 10:11 Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off as a testimony against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.'
Mark 1:14After the arrest of John, Jesus went into Galilee and proclaimed the gospel of God. 15“The time is fulfilled, He said, “and the kingdom of God is near.Repent and believe in the gospel!”
Matt 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
The thief's specific request was to be in the kingdom and knowing that the kingdom was at hand, we are not at liberty to move punctuation marks so as to fit scriptures to our narrative.
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (The words of Jesus.) Luke 17:21
