What to do in church meetings Protestant Tradition v. Scripture

[Nehemiah6]

Paul does not say that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed

If you cannot connect the dots -- and by now I have posted enough to show you -- then don't expect Paul to say something like that. The very fact that he singled them out of all the gifts and told you they would cease, should have already given you a clue.

 

[wattie]

What is ceased in 1 Co 13... is the GIFT of knowledge..not general knowledge obviously. Very different things.

But.. cessationism is not based only on this passage.

Alone.. it is a passage that is incomplete to prove cessationism.

So.. you also compare how the gifts were meant to be conducted then..with what people do with them now.

Also.. you have Ephesians 4 with a point of unity that is the measure of th stature of the fullness of Christ.

You also have scripture being called a mirror..as the perfect law of liberty.

You've also got the qualifications in the Bible to meet as an apostle. Who meets them now?

 

[posthuman]

Nowhere do we read that one pastor must preach a 45-minute sermon.

scripture does talk about what kind of salary that man makes.

none, if he's a man who follows the example of the apostles.

 

[Ballaurena]

Protestants have a tradition of singing songs having one man called the pastor preach the sermon which is a long speech followed by more songs. certain individuals praying and collecting the offering are intermixed in there and there's also Holy Communion which could be weekly or monthly depending on the Protestant church.

But the Bible does not teach this pattern.

In the Bible the apostles appointed multiple elders in a single church and exhorted them to pastor the church/flock.

Nowhere do we read that one pastor must preach a 45-minute sermon.
according to protestant tradition one clergyman exhorts the congregation but in scripture more than one member of the congregation speaks to edify the assembly.

According to tradition there is one sermon but according to scripture the people in the assembly may sing teach prophesy speaking tongues interpret tongues and exhort. (I Corinthians 14:26-31, Hebrews 10:24-25. cf. Romans 12:6-8, Romans 15:14.)

I think you would enjoy reading Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna. That is if you haven't already, since you seem to be noting a lot of the same things they get into. Basically Christianity as we know it can trace much of its modern form to influences of Paganism, Judaism, and just plain arrogant people that thought they knew better than God how to run His church.

Good for you for asking the questions. Protestants of course look back at Martin Luther as a great man who challenged the unbiblical traditions of his day, but they generally fail to do the same thing themselves. And quite honestly, I think Martin Luther was rather blind to the traditions that gave him position in the first place.

 

[presidente]

If you cannot connect the dots -- and by now I have posted enough to show you -- then don't expect Paul to say something like that. The very fact that he singled them out of all the gifts and told you they would cease, should have already given you a clue.

Doctrine that relies on man's mind 'connecting the dots' is not questionable, especially when there is actually strong internal evidence from within the epistle pointing to a very different interpretation. If you will notice, the two witnesses prophesy in the book of Revelation. That should give you a hint.

 

[presidente]

I think you would enjoy reading Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna. That is if you haven't already, since you seem to be noting a lot of the same things they get into. Basically Christianity as we know it can trace much of its modern form to influences of Paganism, Judaism, and just plain arrogant people that thought they knew better than God how to run His church.

Good for you for asking the questions. Protestants of course look back at Martin Luther as a great man who challenged the unbiblical traditions of his day, but they generally fail to do the same thing themselves. And quite honestly, I think Martin Luther was rather blind to the traditions that gave him position in the first place.

Frank sent me a copy of his book with Barna's contributions along with a stack of other books. I haven't gotten through all of them yet.

 

[Marilyn]

Protestants have a tradition of singing songs having one man called the pastor preach the sermon which is a long speech followed by more songs. certain individuals praying and collecting the offering are intermixed in there and there's also Holy Communion which could be weekly or monthly depending on the Protestant church.

But the Bible does not teach this pattern.

In the Bible the apostles appointed multiple elders in a single church and exhorted them to pastor the church/flock.

Nowhere do we read that one pastor must preach a 45-minute sermon.
according to protestant tradition one clergyman exhorts the congregation but in scripture more than one member of the congregation speaks to edify the assembly.

According to tradition there is one sermon but according to scripture the people in the assembly may sing teach prophesy speaking tongues interpret tongues and exhort. (I Corinthians 14:26-31, Hebrews 10:24-25. cf. Romans 12:6-8, Romans 15:14.)

However, the Holy Spirit does bring people together whether 2`s or `3`s etc despite man trying to organize God`s people. We should never measure what the Lord is doing by man`s public meetings.

 

[presidente]

What is ceased in 1 Co 13... is the GIFT of knowledge..not general knowledge obviously. Very different things.

But.. cessationism is not based only on this passage.

Alone.. it is a passage that is incomplete to prove cessationism.

So.. you also compare how the gifts were meant to be conducted then..with what people do with them now.

If you said there were thousands of false instances of spiritual gifts, that wouldn't rule out real instances of spiritual gifts. Do you have any evidence that the I Corinthians 13 gifts are the exact same thing the apostles were doing, in all cases, also?

Also.. you have Ephesians 4 with a point of unity that is the measure of th stature of the fullness of Christ.

This seems to be evidence against cessationism, if we are allowed to use empiracle evidence.

You also have scripture being called a mirror..as the perfect law of liberty.

Since 'the perfect law of liberty' was called perfect early on, when James 1 was written, before I Corinthians 13, Paul must have been writing about some other perfect thing that would come. The reference to the perfect law of liberty is not evidence for cessationism.

You've also got the qualifications in the Bible to meet as an apostle. Who meets them now?

How is this an argument for ceesationism. There is a list of qualifications to replace Judas as ___one of the twelve___ in Acts 1, but there were apostles other than the 12 also, including Paul who did not fit the qualifications to replace Judas in Acts 1, and who seems to imply he accepted Matthias in I Corinthians 15, since he writes of how the resurrected Christ appeared to the twelve before appearing to Him.

 

[Ballaurena]

The only problem with your interpretation is that Paul clearly said that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed. So that would be out of the question.

At the same time, you have missed this: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:11,12)...

Also this: Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness....

And this: As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I agree with your basic premise. There must be a plurality of elders in each church (with various gifts) , with no one above anyone else. Not only should there be singing and prayers, but several MEN (Paul says two or three and that would be about right) should minister the Word according to the spiritual gift (s) they have received. But even those who are not elders may participate as the Lord leads. Regardless, the true Gospel should always be presented.

But there should also be a weekly observance of the Lord's Supper, and all members should bring their gifts and offerings. Not necessarily a "collection" but a place where they can put their offerings without any fanfare.

When the Reformation occurred, the Reformers failed to carefully look at the NT pattern, and adopted the ways of the RCC, particularly seminaries. Then evangelical churches copied the Protestant churches, and almost all churches forgot about the NT pattern, and started hiring pastors and making one man responsible for that which is the responsibilty of many.

You have some good comments in there, but when it comes to your statement that

Paul clearly said that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed.

you are flat wrong.

God went out of His way to show my family that these gifts still exist. And I studied the passage you quote as many in your camp have, and was shocked to realize it actually says the opposite of what you all claim. Rather it is actually saying that such gifts will continue until we see essentially God face to face and understand all spiritual things fully. Until then, we need them. Look at chapters 12 and 14 to see just how needful they are according to Paul. Also, how their use is demonstrated throughout the New Testament, especially in Acts. Anyone who thinks they are outdated doesn't understand their purpose, which is about far more than simply reiterating the Bible, though reminders are actually a needful purpose too. And prophecies of Revelation and the Old Testament Prophets also suggest that they will be used as part of God's plan (ex. Amos 3:7, Revelation 11). Nowhere does it say anything about the Bible being what is complete when they cease, and God has shown me and many, many others very clearly otherwise than your interpretation. I hope you will have the humility not to throw all of our journeys with God away.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

[Ballaurena]

Did you read post #11? And do you know that modern tongues are simply babbling (politely called "free vocalization")? Or do I need to provide documentation?

...Free vocalization (glossolalia) occurs when (1) a human being produces a connected sequence of speech sounds, (2) he cannot identify the sound-sequence as belonging to any natural language that he already knows how to speak, (3) he cannot identify and give the meaning of words or morphemes (minimal lexical units),6 (4) in the case of utterances of more than a few syllables, he typically cannot repeat the same sound-sequence on demand, (5) a naive listener might suppose that it was an unknown language.... In almost all instances, linguists are confident that the samples of T-speech represent no known natural language and in fact no language that was ever spoken or ever will be spoken by human beings as their native tongue.
Linguistic and Sociological Analyses of Modern Tongues-Speaking: Their Contributions and Limitations (frame-poythress.org)

How dare you! I am prophetic, so I rarely use tongues, but when I have had occasion to speak in tongues with interpretation I was utterly shocked at how completely my heart was laid bare even to myself. You are judging harshly things of God, things of Holy Spirit, that you do not understand!

Repent!

 

[PaulThomson]

If you cannot connect the dots -- and by now I have posted enough to show you -- then don't expect Paul to say something like that. The very fact that he singled them out of all the gifts and told you they would cease, should have already given you a clue.

So, you are claiming that all true Christians see Jesus face to face when they read the Bible?

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

[PaulThomson]

How dare you! I am prophetic, so I rarely use tongues, but when I have had occasion to speak in tongues with interpretation I was utterly shocked at how completely my heart was laid bare even to myself. You are judging harshly things of God, things of Holy Spirit, that you do not understand!

Repent!

It is amazing how ready some are to ascribe to satan things that the Bible authenticates as at least sometimes done by the Holy Spirit. This is very much like the Pharisees ascribing Jesus' miracles to the devil. Jesus did not offer them a very optimistic prognosis if they persisted in that arrogance. Have they never read, "Forbid not speaking in tongues"?

1 Cor. 12:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

The only problem with your interpretation is that Paul clearly said that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed.

That's a TOTAL FALSHOOD!!! It is however the normal cessationist lie - i.e. "The Bible", or the "establishment of the Biblical Canon", or even in one case "the invention of the printing press" is supposedly "That Perfect".

Same 'ol, Same ol theological FOOLISHNESS based on NOTHING but private interpretation.

 

[wattie]

That's a TOTAL FALSHOOD!!! It is however the normal cessationist lie - i.e. "The Bible", or the "establishment of the Biblical Canon", or even in one case "the invention of the printing press" is supposedly "That Perfect".

Same 'ol, Same ol theological FOOLISHNESS based on NOTHING but private interpretation.

It isn't the paper.. it is the process of inspiration. Holy men of God were moved along by the Holy Spirit to pen scripture. Also the establishment of the early churches, death of the apostles and destruction of the Jewish temple that affect the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge.

Even if we said the perfect thing is the second coming, that causes the sign gifts to cease, you still have these events that affect the sign gifts.

 

[wattie]

If you said there were thousands of false instances of spiritual gifts, that wouldn't rule out real instances of spiritual gifts. Do you have any evidence that the I Corinthians 13 gifts are the exact same thing the apostles were doing, in all cases, also?



This seems to be evidence against cessationism, if we are allowed to use empiracle evidence.



Since 'the perfect law of liberty' was called perfect early on, when James 1 was written, before I Corinthians 13, Paul must have been writing about some other perfect thing that would come. The reference to the perfect law of liberty is not evidence for cessationism.



How is this an argument for ceesationism. There is a list of qualifications to replace Judas as ___one of the twelve___ in Acts 1, but there were apostles other than the 12 also, including Paul who did not fit the qualifications to replace Judas in Acts 1, and who seems to imply he accepted Matthias in I Corinthians 15, since he writes of how the resurrected Christ appeared to the twelve before appearing to Him.

It doesn't matter that James had the perfect law of liberty earlier.... that it was called perfect. It's still the same thing that gets added to with the NT. Paul considered his own writings as scripture in comparison to the OT scripture. Even though it is called 'perfect'.. in James that doesn't mean it cannot be added to.. unless you are talking about the entire bible closed with the OT and NT.

Ephesians 4.. point of unity of the faith.. that is a measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Allowing christians to no longer be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. .. the bible is these things.

Not to say that believers can't be evangelists, teachers etc.. now. But saying that the supernaturally empowered officers of these positions is no longer required. They can teach.. evangelise etc.. with the Word of God at hand.

The qualifications of an apostle did continue with the apostles right up for a long time to the death of the very last one. Their close associates also received similar giftings. But it was through their hands and authority that it was initially set out.

 

[Marilyn]

It doesn't matter that James had the perfect law of liberty earlier.... that it was called perfect. It's still the same thing that gets added to with the NT. Paul considered his own writings as scripture in comparison to the OT scripture. Even though it is called 'perfect'.. in James that doesn't mean it cannot be added to.. unless you are talking about the entire bible closed with the OT and NT.

Ephesians 4.. point of unity of the faith.. that is a measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Allowing christians to no longer be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. .. the bible is these things.

Not to say that believers can't be evangelists, teachers etc.. now. But saying that the supernaturally empowered officers of these positions is no longer required. They can teach.. evangelise etc.. with the Word of God at hand.

The qualifications of an apostle did continue with the apostles right up for a long time to the death of the very last one. Their close associates also received similar giftings. But it was through their hands and authority that it was initially set out.

So wattie,

does that mean that Christ`s 5 fold ministries, which are HIMSELF are no longer needed? Does not the Head of His Body flow through the Body empowering these ministries for the equipping and perfecting of the Body?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Rather it is actually saying that such gifts will continue until we see essentially God face to face and understand all spiritual things fully.

Then why pick three of them and say they will CEASE?

If they would all continue, then there was no need to say that. No one wants to deal with why three spiritual gifts are picked out of so many (some are mentioned in other epistles). And it is not Paul but the Holy Spirit -- who inspired every epistle of Paul -- who said this.

And why would John close Revelation and say that no more prophecies could be added, not only this book, but to the whole Bible?

And why were no tongues and prophecies recorded by the Early Church Fathers immediately after the apostles?

 

[wattie]

So wattie,

does that mean that Christ`s 5 fold ministries, which are HIMSELF are no longer needed? Does not the Head of His Body flow through the Body empowering these ministries for the equipping and perfecting of the Body?

What you are saying here is what happened. The question is whether, in the future beyond the time of the Ephesians.. things happened that affected the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge. The answer to that is you have the inspiration of the scriptures finishing the death of the apostles and the destruction of the Jewish temple. You would have to assume these events had no affect on those miraculous gifts.

 

[homwardbound]

Paul does not say that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed. That which is perfect comes when we see no longer through a glass darkly, but then face to face. We do not yet see Jesus face to face. So that which is perfect has not yet come.

I see this about Paul stating these things. I see in 1 Cor 13:1-13
Verses 1-3, is us trying to do it right, and can't not in God's Love truth as revealed in verses 4-7 the true love for us all from God to share with all. Then we see verses 8-12 about the gifts
then we see verse 13 that it is God's love and mercy that goes on forever for us to be thankful in and not harm others, to see to refrain from being a Betty better than others attitude of our selves, at least me. (Luke 18:9-14)

So, this to me is not about Tongues, gifts ending, it is about God's Love never ending, to be forever in God and love all as God did, does, revealed on that cross by Son, who went willingly without a fight
Wow! to me at least, seeing the humility. Who goes to death willingly? God did for us all to turn around from selfishness to trust to get through it all.
For me at least, I see this now, thanks to all for sharing what each here

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

It isn't the paper.. it is the process of inspiration. Holy men of God were moved along by the Holy Spirit to pen scripture. Also the establishment of the early churches, death of the apostles and destruction of the Jewish temple that affect the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge.

Even if we said the perfect thing is the second coming, that causes the sign gifts to cease, you still have these events that affect the sign gifts.

There's NO SUCH THING as "Sign Gifts" that's just more phony theology from the cessationist paradigm. It's true that tongues were seen as an indication that a person was being "endued with power" (Jesus' words), but that wasn't their primary purpose.

There's just GIFTS which are given to people according to need. And whether you like it or not, men ARE STILL "Moved by the Holy Spirit" in 2024. Any definition of "Sola Scriptura" that eliminates God's direct inspiration is FALSE.

The PROBLEM IS that in some cases is that a FALSE TEACHER/Prophet/Denominational paradigm, will be "Moved by a spirit" CONTRARY to what the WORD IN CONTEXT says. Joeseph Smith being a prime example. There probably WAS an "angel Moroni". But Moroni's message was satanic.

In that case, if you're Biblically knowledgible, you can easily tell that while they may have been "Moved by a spirit", it wasn't God's Holy SPirit. The demonic can "inspire us" just as well as God can. Ignorance of the Bible renders one "FAIR GAME" for deception.