What to do in church meetings Protestant Tradition v. Scripture

Aaron56 · Jul 17, 2024

Very good point: empowerment.

We have an enemy who has devised schemes against the people of God. Empowerment of the church is required for the advancement of the Kingdom of God. If it were not so, those most versed in logic and reason would be leaders of the church. No. The saints who put into practice what they know to be true in the Lord become the leaders of the church. Leadership is a function of endowment from the Lord and faithfulness to Him in life.

The logicians like to quote "Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" in an attempt to make studying the Bible or seminary attendance the primary qualifier for church leadership. No. Putting the word of God into practice and being a "study of godly character", as led by the Holy Spirit, is the main qualifier for church leadership. It's like saying "Wow, that fisherman, who has fished for hours without landing a fish, is a study in perseverance."

FollowerofShiloh · Jul 17, 2024

Aaron56 said:

Very good point: empowerment.

We have an enemy who has devised schemes against the people of God. Empowerment of the church is required for the advancement of the Kingdom of God. If it were not so, those most versed in logic and reason would be leaders of the church. No. The saints who put into practice what they know to be true in the Lord become the leaders of the church. Leadership is a function of endowment from the Lord and faithfulness to Him in life.

The logicians like to quote "Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" in an attempt to make studying the Bible or seminary attendance the primary qualifier for church leadership. No. Putting the word of God into practice and being a "study of godly character", as led by the Holy Spirit, is the main qualifier for church leadership. It's like saying "Wow, that fisherman, who has fished for hours without landing a fish, is a study in perseverance."

Amen and Amen

wattie · Jul 17, 2024

Aaron56 said:

Well study of the bible would definitely be a qualifier for church leadership. The rest.. yeah.. you don't need a seminary degree to be a pastor, but led by the Holy Spirit, be faithful to the Word of God. But qualifications for being a pastor are right there in 2 Timothy and other books of the NT.

wattie · Jul 17, 2024

Having Jesus as 'that which is perfect'.. or the 'perfect thing' in 1 co 13. And the 'face to face' as Jesus.. doesn't take away from the fact there are no more prophets or apostles.

So before going to the point of what the perfect thing is.. and what 'face to face' means in this passage of 1 co 13.. you've got that fact of apostles and prophets no longer being around.

Marilyn · Jul 17, 2024

wattie said:

I was brought up with them and taught of them. And there are still Apostles and prophets today out in the field not swanning it around on utube.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 17, 2024

Marilyn said:

Really? Why have you not given us a concrete example of a genuine modern apostle or prophet. A lot of you are making this claim, but are unable to provide any evidence. Because there is none.

Marilyn · Jul 17, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

I believe God`s word and I know those I grew up with. Many have passed on, but there are many out there all over the world - in the back blocks, in the trenches, with the believers in everyday life, like Paul, Silvanus and Timothy.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 17, 2024

Marilyn said:

That is merely an assumption. You did not grown up with apostles and prophets, but evangelists, pastors, and teachers. There are only twelve apostles of the Lamb, and all were eye-witnesses of the resurrected Christ (Paul included).

Ballaurena · Jul 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

You need to read those passages you cite again more carefully since the answers are in there. Be sure to do so humbly and with God since He can connect the dots for you if you really want the truth.

homwardbound · Jul 18, 2024

Aaron56 said:

There were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb. Together, they were a irrefutable witness of the baptism, ministry, death, and ascension of Jesus Christ.

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

“You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship..."

It should be noted: another apostle listed in scripture did not meet these requirements. Therefore, he could not be numbered among the 12. No matter his contribution to the scriptural testimony (God does not esteem men like men esteem themselves) he could not have given eye-witness testimony of the ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus.

Of course I'm talking about Barnabas.

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out..."

Paul was another apostle who was not among the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. Paul even wrote as much:

In Acts 6 this is recorded: "Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables."

The twelve now included Matthias.

Then Paul wrote this: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve..."

Paul did not number himself among the twelve. He, like Barnabas, Timothy, Silvanus, were other apostles mentioned in the Bible, not Apostles of the Lamb as seen in Revelation:

"Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Of course the apostolic gift is foundational as is the prophetic gift. God intended that those gifts work together. Why? Because it is given to the prophets to hear God directly (vital to the life of a believer) and to teach others to hear God. And it is given to the apostles to know and establish the administration and organization of the church and to correct any weakness thereof. God did not remove the need for people skilled with these gifts. Indeed, as the world rushes to the end, knowing what God is doing and how He is doing it will become more and more important to those who are spiritual.

Last note: although demonstrations of power may be necessary, the life of an apostle will primarily be identified as one who builds up the Body of Christ, loves and supports the saints, and devotion to the Lord in all things. Humility and reverence for the Lord will follow him. Many would testify of his kindness and grace.

However, like the Lord, apostles may often create conflict: primarily strife between the spiritually minded and the worldly. A faithful apostle will be lied about, ridiculed, and slandered. Assured of his place in Christ, he will likely remain silent as others disparage him.

God called, we the people are to listen to God not other people as if they know, when only God knows the truth for each, as each turns to believe God in risen Son Jesus for them as well.
The mystery of God, is amazing to me, as I have learned and not learned, being of this flesh and blood I am in, that is not redeemed
Seeing clearly, no flesh can please God, but Son's that did that on that cross once for everyone to now, turn to Father and be made new in God's Holy Spirit and Truth, doing the leading of me at least over my first birth in flesh nature. John 4:23-24

homwardbound · Jul 18, 2024

Marilyn said:

Remembering this: no one is better than anyone else. As said in the Bible, when another person was about to bow to Peter or any of the Apostles.
Their response, they are not special.. I see it this way, all `put their pants on one leg at a time. As God see not one other person as better than any other. No respect of persons as man sees the outer, God sees the inner. Each has their own gift given them from God. As each person in belief, works out thier own salvation between God and them personally first. Over any plaudits or popularity of religion or of anyone else. This is just how I see it. As I read Hebrews Chapter 1. In the days before Christ, God spoke to the people through the Prophets, today only through Son the risen Jesus for me in love and mercy given me to share to all.

PaulThomson · Jul 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

What does the word apostle, greek apostolos mean?

homwardbound · Jul 18, 2024

PaulThomson said:

I looked that up, thanks

messenger one sent with a message

The original meaning of the Greek word apostolos is 'messenger one sent with a message' from apostellein 'to send'. The word was used in the Septuagint as a translation of Hebrew saleh 'messenger apostle'.

As the Disciples looked to replace Judas Iscariot. They said, whoever of these two, God calls. They threw dice (Gambled). yet of the two to get one to replace Judas Iscariot. The new person to replace Judas, had to have seen the life, burial and resurrection of Christ, to be reckoned an Apostle of Christ, to be a disciple.
Then God calls Saul, who became Paul, Amazing the mysteries of God continues forward, as man continues to want to know beforehand and choose people and say God called that other person, when God might not have, so much confusion over the truth. God raised Son from the dead for the people to see and believe, as Paul wrote of this in 1 Cor. 15
The truth is completed in the risen Son, over the dead Son, people are taught to imitate and no flesh can do what is done for them by Son. God left us the people to turn to God in belief to God Son is alive for them to be new in love and mercy to all as Son did that on the cross in the first place once for all to either believe it or not, that he is risen, never to die again or sacrifice anymore for anymore reconciliation (2 Cor 5:17-20) see verse 16 also.
Thanks

Aaron56 · Jul 18, 2024

homwardbound said:

Good point.

To your point, some Christians worry about who may rule over whom. They think, if there is an apostle then the apostle is in charge. That is not true. Gifts are not ranks of importance. But, because the church, especially in the U.S., is so consumed with prowess or influence, leadership forbids anyone to have a ministry more important than their own.

Apostlolos, the word "apostle" in English, is merely "one who is sent." If you go to Greece you will see brightly colored vans with the word "Apostolos" on their sides. These are the vans that deliver the mail.

Ironically, churches tend to send evangelists to other people in the name of "missionary work". Evangelists are meant for the local church. They are gifted with understanding and displaying the love of God to the saints! Is there any wonder why, as the Age comes to a close, the love of most will grow cold? The church is sending out those who are gifted with maintaining and showing God's love among believers. By this tradition, they deprive themselves of God's love. Further irony: once evangelists are sent, they are sent as an apostle is supposed to be sent, yet, they lack power to operate in that space because God has not given it to them. Consequently, they "plant churches" that are like their church of origin. Wrong! Real apostles are sent to establish elders among new areas of believers. These elders attend to the needs of the people whom they know and live among according to their needs and giftings NOT to simply copy what the evangelists know from back home. (I could say much more about this)

I know this offends decades of church tradition and the people who are addicted to church tradition. But there was and is no need to change the patterns shown in scripture concerning the function of apostles: God chooses them, the Spirit informs the prophets and leaders, they lay hands upon them and release them to their task. Then, apostles (like Paul) may send others (so gifted like Timothy) to other areas. All apostles work to build up believers and choose elders from among the people so that THEY (not the apostles themselves) may tend to the needs of the church in that area. (At this time, that's all I have to say about that

)

homwardbound · Jul 18, 2024

Aaron56 said:

I see, you are getting taught new in God's Spirit and Truth and see as getting taught to be wise as a serpent, seeing to stay harmless as a dove. pulling a few tares, as man took the Temple being destroyed in AD 70, as to rebuild it as if God called it to be done. (Hebrews 8:1-4)
The first Harbinger. And yet Paul saw to be content in it, however it turned out, glorying in Christ being preached as risen. Even though today, what mostly gets preached is the Death, and his reconciliation, not the resurrection, where the new life is at. Even though preachers will say oh yeah, yet will not go into that truth for any maturity for the laymen, because, then one is set free in that truth. Instead using the hammer, works best for preachers, keeps them in power, mixing a little grace in it, to get people excited to go and do, even though no flesh person can do what is done for them by Son to them. John 19:30, he yelled it is finished! I asked Lord, what is finished?
Being under Law to do to get or to keep in good tune with God. No flesh can please God but Son's the only one that ever did it. To see Son first was not a Levite Priest, under Law. Yet performed Law perfect, so the new originally meant Law could get put in place. Love (1 Cor 13:4-7)
If. preachers preach, no you do not have to obey or give tithes, then they out of a job. That is what got Christ killed in the first place. Job security
Only to their demise, when saw him risen Col. 1,2
The Law of Liberty is not preached by many
Thanks for your insights

PaulThomson · Jul 18, 2024

homwardbound said:

I looked that up, thanks

messenger one sent with a message

The original meaning of the Greek word apostolos is 'messenger one sent with a message' from apostellein 'to send'. The word was used in the Septuagint as a translation of Hebrew saleh 'messenger apostle'.

As the Disciples looked to replace Judas Iscariot. They said, whoever of these two, God calls. They threw dice (Gambled). yet of the two to get one to replace Judas Iscariot. The new person to replace Judas, had to have seen the life, burial and resurrection of Christ, to be reckoned an Apostle of Christ, to be a disciple.
Then God calls Saul, who became Paul, Amazing the mysteries of God continues forward, as man continues to want to know beforehand and choose people and say God called that other person, when God might not have, so much confusion over the truth. God raised Son from the dead for the people to see and believe, as Paul wrote of this in 1 Cor. 15
The truth is completed in the risen Son, over the dead Son, people are taught to imitate and no flesh can do what is done for them by Son. God left us the people to turn to God in belief to God Son is alive for them to be new in love and mercy to all as Son did that on the cross in the first place once for all to either believe it or not, that he is risen, never to die again or sacrifice anymore for anymore reconciliation (2 Cor 5:17-20) see verse 16 also.
Thanks

Are missionaries sent ones? and have there been any missionaries since the biblical canon was completed? Are there still missionaries being sent to unreached people groups?

Aaron56 · Jul 18, 2024

PaulThomson said:

"We derive words like missionary and missions from the Latin missio, which simply means sending. The Greek equivalent is apostelló, from which the word apostle comes."

From here: https://www.etymonline.com/word/missionary

Apostle is simply "sent one."

The word "missionary" (like the words "Pope" or "cardinal") are not found in scripture. Just like there are no pastor-led churches in scripture.

It's ironic that people who claim to follow "the clear word of scripture" actually adhere to extra-Biblical traditions.

homwardbound · Jul 18, 2024

PaulThomson said:

Oh absolutely, whether it is actually God doing it or man, absolutely
Whatever the reason anyone or any group of people doing this, is either of God or it is not, yet Christ is preached, Amen
Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Ephesians 2:17
and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:11
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Galatians 4:13
Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
2 Corinthians 1:19
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Be wise as a serpent, remain humble as a dove.

Christ is preached, the risen one where new life begins for everyone in belief to God will see, as that takes time to see deeper and deeper. not giving up, not walking away as many have and taken on other ways, under Law, seeking rewards, sitting in Moses's seat.
Christ is preached and the Holy Spirit, God himself is here, which began on Pentecost. As the wind (Pneuma) and will reach everyone, in God's Spirit and Truth, even though there are those not in beleif and use the Gospel for self gain. Let them be as David saw this in Psalm 1 to delight in God's law and love all as God does love all, which is not seen by many, reasoning it out in themselves, not getting what they asked for and so despise God. James tells us why we do not get. Because we ask amiss, only wanting it to spend it on our own pleasures.

Gl 3:19-26
There is a lot to sort out, and only God the only one good as said in Matthew 19 by Jesus, per Matthew, and Mark and Luke also reported this too, maybe John too. Yet God is the one and only one good, forever. We are made new in belief to God through risen Son, partakers in this amazing grace given.
I am no good, anytime I think I am good or am doing good, I am fooling me.

2 Corinthians 11:7
Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?

As you got/get this from others, telling you to do or else God Will get you. These preachers that use a hammer are using people for self gain and the people are giving it to them, being told they got to be righteous, when no other person but Son is and obeyed alll the way to willing death, will anyone else? If willing, then God makes you righteous too. If not, then that first born flesh stands in the way of your soul to be saved.
A tree is identified by its fruit. Yet since Christ is preached, I see to glory in that, how about y'all reading this too?
Psalm 100:4
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Those scriptures are fulfilled today in Son. for us to be new in trust to Father of risen Son
Passed from first birth death to life the second birth in God's Spirit and Truth
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Love to all is what is done for us all from God the Father of Son Jesus the two married as one (Won) for us all to believe and stand in that, no matter what goes on.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 18, 2024

PaulThomson said:

Strictly it means "sent one". But in the context of the NT, it means twelve men specifically chosen by Christ to (a) accompany Him throughout His earthly ministry (other than Paul who later received direct revelations and teaching from Christ), (b) be sent out even before His crucifixion to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and perform all kinds of miracles, (c) meet with Christ after His resurrection and be witnesses to that amazing fact, (d) be taught by Him for 40 days between His resurrection and His ascension, (f) preach the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles while performing miracles, and then (g) establish churches throughout the world.

Some wrote the books of the NT, and Paul wrote the majority of them. These books were divinely inspired, therefore regarded as Scripture. Paul encouraged various churches to circulate this epistle to other churches.

HEBREWS 2: THE "SIGNS OF AN APOSTLE" WERE SIGNS, WONDERS, AND MIRACLES
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The apostolic miracles were designed by God to authenticate the divine origin of the Gospel. Therefore Paul -- the last apostle -- also performed miracles as proof of his apostleship. I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor 12:11,12)

Wansvic · Jul 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

You are mistaken:

IRENAEUS (born 120/140 - died c. 200)
The manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Not only did Irenaeus emphasize water baptism, but he emphasized
receiving the Holy Spirit. He commented upon I Corinthians 6:9-11 and 15:49:
Now he says that the things which save are the
name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of
God. . . . And then, again when (do we bear) the
image of the heavenly? Doubtless when he says, “Ye
have been washed,” believing in the name of the Lord,
and receiving His Spirit.
(Against Heresies 5:11:1-2)

Moreover, he asserted that speaking in tongues is the sign of a Spirit-filled person. Commenting on
I Corinthians 2:6, he wrote:
The perfect man consists in the commingling and
the union of the soul receiving the Spirit of the Father. . . .
For this reason does the apostle declare, “We
speak wisdom among them that are perfect,” terming
those persons “perfect” who have received the Spirit
of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in
all languages, as he used himself also to speak. In like
manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church,
who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the
Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light
for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and
declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle
terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they
partake of the Spirit.
(Ibid. 5:6:1)

Some people argue that he merely alluded to miracles he had heard about, but it seems clear that he regarded
tongues as the expected sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit. He cited various reports simply to demonstrate the
diversity of tongues and prophecies throughout the
worldwide church. He further stated:

Those who are in truth His disciples, receiving
grace from Him, do in His name perform (miracles)
. . . drive out devils . . . see visions . . . utter prophetic
expressions . . . heal the sick by laying their hands
upon them. . . . The dead even have been raised up,
and remained among us for many years. . . . It is not
possible to name the number of the gifts which the
Church, (scattered) throughout the whole world, has
received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ. . . .
Nor does she perform anything by means of angelic
invocations, or by incantations, or by any other
wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the
Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and
straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of
our Lord Jesus Christ. . . .
(Ibid. 2:32:4-5)

It is evident that all across Christendom people in this age received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. The
exercise of various miraculous, spiritual gifts was common, expected, encouraged, and normative.

TERTULLIAN (166/160 - died 220)
He believed in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues and the exercise of the spiritual gifts (charismata) of I Corinthians 12. He regarded them as signs of the true church, stating that they were the norm in his day. Writing against the Marcionites, he challenged them to produce such gifts if they were a true church:

The Creator promised the gift of His Spirit in the
latter days, and . . . Christ has in these last days
appeared as the dispenser of spiritual gifts. . . . Let
Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some
prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense,
but with the Spirit of God. . . . Let him produce a
psalm, a vision, a prayer—only let it be by the Spirit,
in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation
of tongues has occurred to him. . . . Now all
these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from
my side without any difficulty.
(Against Marcion 5:8)

Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As the evidence from Irenaeus, Tertullian, ...shows, people were receiving the Holy Spirit with the sign of tongues at the beginning of the Old Catholic Age. In the third century, Sabellius, Asterius Urbanus, and Novatian also described the supernatural gifts of utterance as normal and expected.
(Of the Holy Spirit - 133, 135, citing Epiphanius and Pseudo-Athanasius regarding Sabellius; Asterius Urbanus, Extant Writings, 10)

NOVATIAN (200 - died 258)
Said of the Holy Spirit:
This is He who places prophets in the church,
instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives power and
healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination
of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests
counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other
gifts there are of charismata; and thus makes the
Lord’s church everywhere, and in all, perfected and
completed.
(Treatise concerning the Trinity)

HILARY (310 - 367)
Even in the fourth century, tongues, interpretation of
tongues, and other supernatural gifts were in evidence.
Hilary, bishop of Poitiers, described tongues and interpretation of tongues as “agents of ministry” ordained of
God.
(Hilary,On the Trinity 8:33)

AMBROSE Bishop of Milan (339-397)
taught that all the gifts of I Corinthians 12 were part of the normal Christian experience.
(Ambrose, Of the Holy Spirit 2:8) Excerpts from A History of Church Doctrine Volume 1-Bernard

What to do in church meetings Protestant Tradition v. Scripture

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