What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

Denise1964 · Jan 21, 2020

Ezekiel 38 Talks about an alliance between Russia, Turkey and Iran that forms against Israel. Never before in history has Russia, Turkey and Iran formed an alliance until now. And even though Russia has a 1st world military they have a 3rd world economy and they are heavily reliant on selling natural gas to Europe. In this prophecy Israel is invaded and the prophecy goes that Saudi Arabia accuses Russia of invading Israel to take plunder. Until about 5 years ago Israel had nothing of value to plunder. But about 5 years ago Israel discovered an enormous gas and oil field called Leviathan. Some say it is the largest in the world. Israel has recently offered to sell gas to Europe at an extremely very very cheap price that there is no way Russia could compete with. Many scholars believe this is the "hook" God sets in Russia's mouth to bring them down south and invade Israel. And when Russia does this God deals with Russia Himself. Let me remind you it says "the utter most parts of the north" utter most means you go as far north as you can go until you start going south again and that would be Russia. Talking about Israel God says "I will bring you against MY land" That land belongs to GOD. He put HIS NAME on it and the covenant HE made with Israel HE said was an everlasting covenant. I can only assume we can agree on what the word everlasting means? When this happens God is going to fight for Israel. Many believe this kicks off the 7 years of tribulation. I don't know. That's not my point here. My point here is that these prophetic alliances have never formed and this prophetic event has not yet happened yet it is clearly written about involving Israel and God fighting for Israel. Interestingly in that fight not one single country comes to the aid or defense of Israel so we know there is a Democrat or socialist president. Perhaps America is even a dictatorship when this happens. 😊

Denise1964 · Jan 21, 2020

PlainWord said:

This is likely going to ruffle some futurist's feathers but the truth needs to be shared.

I find it sadly ironic that the Jews of the first century missed the first coming of Christ. Equally sad is the majority of the church has missed the second coming of Christ. In both cases it was due to ignorance. The return of Christ's presence (parousia) whereby He comes to dwell with His church in our Kingdom Age, came without observation (Lk 17:20). This is why the disciples asked what the signs would be of Christ's presence (Mt 24:3). If the return of Christ's presence was to be visible and plain to see, one wouldn't need signs of it.

In Acts 1, the angels informed the Men of Galilee the following and the wording is very important!!

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Notice they were gazing INTO HEAVEN? The door (gate) between the spiritual realm and our physical realm was opened at this time making it possible to see into heaven. Normally, as in the case of Stephen, one can only see into heaven (which is all around us) when one is dying and transitioning.

The fully glorified Christ in the spiritual realm would appear to us as an extremely bright light as Paul attested when he encountered Christ on the road to Damascus. Thus Christ would return as a bright light. Indeed, Christ describes his return as "as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Mat 24:27). According to Tacitus, “[a] sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple.” Tacitus seems to imply that lightning struck the Temple during what appears to be the miraculous appearance of Christ. The Temple stood on the eastern edge of Jerusalem. Therefore, if lightning struck the Temple, as Tacitus seems to imply, then this event seems to represent the literal fulfillment of the “lightning that comes from the east” mentioned in Matthew 24:27.

The fact that glorified beings appear as lightening to us is reinforced in Mat 28:2 "And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow."

Christ goes on to tie the location and timing of His return in the next verse as, "28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Jesus was speaking about the carcass of the great harlot, Jerusalem, filled with hundreds of thousands of dead bodies.

It is my contention that Christ is present with His Church right now as its head and we as His Bride. The futurist must therefore see our church as rudderless, without Christ present with us. This is sad.

You do realize Jesus is a Jew right?

GaryA · Jan 21, 2020

PlainWord said:

Hi Gary,

Keep in mind John was in Patmos writing to churches in Western Turkey, so we are talking about kings from their east. The Kings of the East were then Sohaemus and Antiochus. Both Men Ruled Kingdoms along the Euphrates to the East of Patmos and the Seven Churches of Asia Minor. They aided Titus’ Army in the Siege of Jerusalem. As I'm sure you will recall, Babylon was overthrown by the Persians (from the east) by diverting the Euphrates. According to Josephus, there was a drought and severe heat during the Jewish War, (likely in fulfillment of the fourth bowl). Was this sufficient to dry up the Euphrates enough to cross it? We can only speculate.

King Sohaemus ruled the kingdom of Sophene on the east bank of the Euphrates between Cappadocia and Armenia. Antiochus was the king of Commagene on the west bank of the Euphrates. These kings of the east offered their military and leadership to aid in the defeat of Jerusalem. In addition to the two kings mentioned above, three thousand Roman soldiers drawn from the legions guarding the Euphrates also reinforced Titus’ army on its road to Jerusalem. Thus the fall of Jerusalem, spiritual Babylon, mirrored the fall of ancient, historical Babylon: both cities having been conquered, at least in part, by the crossing of their enemies over the Euphrates.

Does this mean that you are actually considering the possibility that some part(s) of Revelation should be taken as literal?

Absolutely · Jan 22, 2020

PlainWord said:

Amazing you did not defend your faith.
She neither knows you or can see you

Denise1964 · Jan 22, 2020

PlainWord said:

I'm new to this site and this is the first Bible discussion I've taken part in. I don't know you or all your views. I simply asked if you are a 'BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN' which you still refuse to answer. I gave you the reason why I asked and I don't see the point in belaboring it unless you want me to copy paste from a previous post. Just answer the question please. Are you a born again Christian? Are you washed in the blood of the lamb? Just answer...

Absolutely · Jan 22, 2020

Denise1964 said:

I would have GLADY ANSWERED IT.
IT is a wonderful opportunity to affirm and announce the incredible gift from heaven.

THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!

PlainWord · Jan 22, 2020

Absolutely said:

What's amazing is the arrogance some of you Futurists show towards fellow believers. You are on the wrong side of this debate yet are the ones arrogantly pontificating for it and attempting to demean those trying to help you.

PlainWord · Jan 22, 2020

GaryA said:

A great deal of it's literal. Virtually all of it. It is just written using figurative language to conceal certain things from the "beast" AKA, the Roman Empire. John borrows the language of the OT prophets. For instance, Locusts = Foreign Armies. But don't tell Absolutely. He's dreaming of flying scorpions.

Melach · Jan 22, 2020

Denise1964 said:

what is your point about that? we agree that Jesus was a jew.

TooFastTurtle · Jan 27, 2020

Rapture: Christ comes for the Church (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)
2nd Coming: Christ returns with the Church (Col.3:4; 1 Thes.3:13; Jude 14; Rev.17:14,19:14)

Rapture: Christ appears in the air, but not to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: Christ returns to the earth (Zech.14:4; Matt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21)

Rapture: It is imminent (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6; Revelation 3:3)
2nd Coming: He clearly comes at the end of the Tribulation (Matt.24:29-30; 2 Thess.2:3-8)

Rapture: There are no signs
2nd Coming: There are many signs

Rapture: It is a time of joy … for the bride (1 Thessalonians 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1 John 3:3)
2nd Coming: It is a time of terror (Joel 3:12-16; Malachi 4:5; Revelation 19:11-21)

Rapture: Only the bride will see Him
2nd Coming: The whole world will see Him (Revelation 1:7; 19:11-16)

Rapture: Is a mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51-54; Colossians 1:26)
2nd Coming: No mystery (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10, 14:4)

Rapture: Christ gathers His bride to Himself (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: His angels gather the lost (Matthew 13:39, 41, 49; 24:31, 25:31; 2 Thes.1:7-10)

Rapture: Only for the bride, the Church (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: For the redeemed of Israel & the Gentiles (Matt.25:31-46; Rom.11:25-27)

Rapture: Christ does not arrive on a white horse
2nd Coming: Christ arrives on a white horse (Revelation 19:11)

Absolutely · Jan 27, 2020

TooFastTurtle said:

Rapture: Christ comes for the Church (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)
2nd Coming: Christ returns with the Church (Col.3:4; 1 Thes.3:13; Jude 14; Rev.17:14,19:14)

Rapture: Christ appears in the air, but not to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: Christ returns to the earth (Zech.14:4; Matt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21)

Rapture: It is imminent (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6; Revelation 3:3)
2nd Coming: He clearly comes at the end of the Tribulation (Matt.24:29-30; 2 Thess.2:3-8)

Rapture: There are no signs
2nd Coming: There are many signs

Rapture: It is a time of joy … for the bride (1 Thessalonians 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1 John 3:3)
2nd Coming: It is a time of terror (Joel 3:12-16; Malachi 4:5; Revelation 19:11-21)

Rapture: Only the bride will see Him
2nd Coming: The whole world will see Him (Revelation 1:7; 19:11-16)

Rapture: Is a mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51-54; Colossians 1:26)
2nd Coming: No mystery (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10, 14:4)

Rapture: Christ gathers His bride to Himself (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: His angels gather the lost (Matthew 13:39, 41, 49; 24:31, 25:31; 2 Thes.1:7-10)

Rapture: Only for the bride, the Church (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
2nd Coming: For the redeemed of Israel & the Gentiles (Matt.25:31-46; Rom.11:25-27)

Rapture: Christ does not arrive on a white horse
2nd Coming: Christ arrives on a white horse (Revelation 19:11)

Nice post sir

tanakh · Jan 28, 2020

I want to start this post by discussing some of the views expressed in this thread.

First the Rapture. There will be a rapture. The main argument is when it will happen. The term Rapture is misleading because
it has become a'Buzz Word' for a whole raft of end time beliefs attached to it mainly by Pre Tribbers. People ask if you believe in
the rapture. If you say yes you are deemed to be a Pre Tribber and a negative answer can cause your salvation to be open to question.

Next Preterism and Prophecy

The Prophets had two main functions one was calling people to repent the other was to predict future events both good and bad. Often
they used past events to proclaim their message. Jesus used this method in his role of Prophet. Preterists fixate on the
events of AD70. Where they make a mistake is in the belief that what happened then was the final event in the history of Israel.
Jesus predicted what would happen to those who rejected him then and also those who would reject him afterwards. The fault with those who criticise Preterist beliefs is that they fail to acknowledge that Jesus did predict the events of AD70 and that they were a sign
of what would happen again in the last days.

I will come back on the thread later to give an explanation with verses to back up the belief that the Rapture and the second coming
happen at the same time.

Absolutely · Jan 28, 2020

tanakh said:

I want to start this post by discussing some of the views expressed in this thread.

First the Rapture. There will be a rapture. The main argument is when it will happen. The term Rapture is misleading because
it has become a'Buzz Word' for a whole raft of end time beliefs attached to it mainly by Pre Tribbers. People ask if you believe in
the rapture. If you say yes you are deemed to be a Pre Tribber and a negative answer can cause your salvation to be open to question.

Next Preterism and Prophecy

The Prophets had two main functions one was calling people to repent the other was to predict future events both good and bad. Often
they used past events to proclaim their message. Jesus used this method in his role of Prophet. Preterists fixate on the
events of AD70. Where they make a mistake is in the belief that what happened then was the final event in the history of Israel.
Jesus predicted what would happen to those who rejected him then and also those who would reject him afterwards. The fault with those who criticise Preterist beliefs is that they fail to acknowledge that Jesus did predict the events of AD70 and that they were a sign
of what would happen again in the last days.

I will come back on the thread later to give an explanation with verses to back up the belief that the Rapture and the second coming
happen at the same time.

Um,no,hardly any of that applies to my pretrib rapture beliefs.
Are you purposefully misrepresenting me?

..and postrib rapture adherents have no verses.
Not even one.

Absolutely · Jan 28, 2020

Look, the rapture is the gathering of the bride.

That IS the starting place.
You can not POSSIBLY understand fully what is about to happen without that starting place.

The book of ruth
The 10 virgin parable
Rev 19
And the last supper.

Just 4 quick references among others.

Tribulation is Jacobs trouble/Israels trouble.

The FIRST MIRACLE is the last wine. The Jews harvested in rev 14.
"...but you saved the best wine for last"
(His jewish people....covenant people)

If you just go with a "mental tribulation when is the rapture "starting place,you can,as postribs zealously demonstrate,make that bible twist and turn at your pleasure.

Then act like there are no ones WORTHY to be taken...when Jesus vividly illustrates it in the 10 virgin parable.

Pssst....what do you think recieving/not recieving crowns demonstrates?????

Hello.....WORTHYNESS!!!

ONLY those looking for The GROOM go in the rapture.

But no.....only those looking WITH OIL.

Roughly half the church stays sitting on their hands.

What a horrible pit.
They go on to choose/not choose the mark.

Such horror and anguish.
But dont act like JESUS didnt tell you about it .
He told you in mat 25.

"....but the foolish came knocking later....and were told NO... go back to your lax comfortable religion and the horror of the guillotine where you and your family will gnash your teeth."

Bottom line. Be wise. Get your oil now. Not just tje lamp(salvation with a secular twist),but get another vessel full like the first church did

It is called the BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

THE UPPER ROOM IS STILL THERE FOR THE WISE AND HUNGRY.

Absolutely · Jan 28, 2020

Oh yeah.

tanakh · Jan 28, 2020

Absolutely said:

Im not purposefully misrepresenting anyone in particular. What I have posted so far stems not only from views found on this site but
from many of the Pre Trib orientated books, magazines and preaching about the subject.

Post trib rapture adherents have no verses to support the view. Are you sure about this because I can give you some ?

For the lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God
and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the
clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall we ever be with the Lord Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
But the times and the seasons brethren ye have no need that I write unto you For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord
so cometh like a thief in the night. For when they say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon
a woman with child and they shall not escape. But ye are all children are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief
Ye are all children of light and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 -5: 5 KJV

And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army for his camp is very great for he is strong that executeth his word
for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible and who can abide it

Joel 2:11 KJV

Multitudes multitudes in the valley of decision for the day of the lord is near in the valley of decision. The Lord also shall roar
out of Zion and utter his voice from Jerusalem and the heavens and the earth shall shake but the Lord will be the hope of his people
and the strength of the children of Israel.

But the day of the Lord so cometh like a thief in the night in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements
shall melt with fervant heat the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. seeing then that al lthese things shall be dissolved what manner of persons ought ye to be in all conversation and Godliness? Looking for and hasting unto the coming day of God wherein the heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt with fervant heat?

2 Peter 3: 10-12 KJV

Reading Pauls passage we see that he speaks about the rapture and the day of the lord. The description of the day of the Lord
according to Joel and Peter is far from the secret coming that we are told to expect.

Another interesting scripture can be found in Revelation

In Chapter 16 John sees a vision of three unclean spirits like frogs that gather the kings of the earth together to the great day of God
almighty to a place called Armageddon. The interesting thing is that in the middle of this account at verse 15 Christ says
behold I come as a thief Blessed he that watcheth and keepeth his garments lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
Christ uses the same phrase used elswhere that is supposed to be connected to a Pre Trib rapture in a place that is supposed to
indicate a pre tribulation rapture. Either we should expect Armageddon before the tribulation or the secret coming and rapture
expected by pre tribbers is wrong. I know which one I opt for

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2020

tanakh said:

This is a very common misunderstanding.

The verse in Revelation 16:15-16, that you quote above ("Behold, I come AS A THIEF.") is indeed speaking of the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (His "RETURN" to the earth, bodily/physically/VISIBLY, HE HIMSELF returning to the earth) at the Rev19 time-slot.

The phrase, "the DOTL so cometh AS A THIEF *IN THE NIGHT*" (where the "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is ADDED) is not speaking of Jesus Himself and His RETURN to the earth; but is instead referring to the ARRIVAL of the TIME-PERIOD (which will unfold upon the earth [and transpire THERE] immediately following "our Rapture/Departure") which is the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" time-period, aka the 7-yr tribulation period (commonly so called).

IOW, His physical and visible presence will not be seen on the earth at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period (but the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" will be present [in an active role, I mean] on the earth from that point in the chronology; i.e. at the START of the trib yrs, aka SEAL #1, aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception]']," the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from that INITIAL one, and which Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse--these all taking place in that specific, future, limited time-period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth/His "RETURN" to the earth [but all of them (the "birth PANGS") taking place FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"/THE Departure"]; IOW, the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time-period FOLLOWS our Departure/Rapture )

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2020

^ EDIT to clarify further:

"the DOTL" time period INCLUDES: the 7-yr trib, His Second Coming to the earth, AND the 1000-yr reign (ALL of that).

Its ARRIVAL [point in time] ("[will come/so cometh] as a thief IN THE NIGHT") is what both 1Th5:2-3 and 2Pet3:10a are speaking of... (and that point-in-time is not identical with the Rev19 time-slot, but instead lines up with the Rev6:2 time-slot, at the START of the trib yrs)

tanakh · Jan 28, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

The Great tribulation is not for the whole period of seven years. It starts when the Antichrist sits in the Temple and declares himself
God. Before that the world continues on its way as in the days of Noah. The day of the Lord with the wrath of God starts immediately after the tribulation. See Matthew 24

Your response is typical of Pre Trib enthusiasts. Instead of comparing plain scripture with Scripture as I have done you rely on an ''interpretation'' instead. For the most part the Church has believed in one second coming for centuries and still do. I wouldnt
expect you to agree because I once believed as you do and know how difficult it can be to free oneself from delusion.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 28, 2020

tanakh said:

We agree here about the definition of "the GREAT tribulation" (which consists of ONLY the last 1260 days of the tribulation period, aka the second half of the 7-yr period); per Matt24:15,21 [parallel the "singular 'desolation'" and "singular 'abomination'" in Daniel, according to Jesus' words here (NOT the PLURALS in Dan!)] and Rev7:9,14 (and related passages, of which there are many).

That point in time parallels 2 Thessalonians 2:4 [/paralleling Dan9:27b]; but is NOT parallel the "man of sin's" ARRIVAL point in time, which is what 2 Thessalonians 2:9a,8a,3 [/Dan9:27a(26)] is speaking of.

BOTH passages (2Th2:3-9a and Dan9:27a/b/c[26]) are covering ALL SEVEN YEARS (NOT merely 3.5 yrs' time!)

So the ARRIVAL OF "the DOTL" time period (1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5; 2Th2:3,8a,9a) and the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin IN HIS TIME" (same time-slot) is located back further (that is, EARLIER) than the mid-point when the Antichrist does the 2Th2:4 "sitteth in the temple of God") thing (which "sitteth in the temple of God" event connects to the mid-point, aka the start of "the GREAT tribulation," aka when 1260 days are remaining till Christ "RETURNS" to the earth at Rev19, aka at the MID-point of the 7-yrs total--that's when THAT events occurs).

The problem comes in when people do not connect the right events with the right time-slots, and instead mistakenly think that the 2Th2:4 thing ("sitteth in the temple") is at the same time as the 2Th2:9a,8a,3 thing (the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin IN HIS TIME" which is much EARLIER! back at Seal #1, the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" with many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" following on from there! [IOW, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 takes place at the START of the 7-yr period, whereas Matt24:15,21 takes place at the MID-point of the 7-yr period, several/a few YEARS' DIFFERENCE ])

That's not the START/ARRIVAL of "the DOTL time period... though it certainly is ONE ASPECT of the entire long thing, as a whole. (I listed the 3 aspects of it, in that last post... it INCLUDES *ALL THREE* of those, it does not ARRIVE at the same moment as Christ's "RETURN" to the earth [that general time-slot, Matt24:29-31] but MUCH EARLIER! 7 years earlier, at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more to follow! (the SEALS are equated with "the beginning of birth PANGS" [Matt24:4/Mk13:5... 1Th5:2-3... 2Th2:3,8a,9a / Dan9:27a[26])

The same COULD be said of your own viewpoint, but I wouldn't say such a thing.

You are free to believe as you wish.

I do hope that you (and the readers) will consider the points I've brought forward in the above (for "comparing Scripture with Scripture" is precisely what I am doing).

What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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