What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[Absolutely]

He t o l

Have you heard of the Greek word "harpozo"? It means plucked up, snatched away. It is this word harpozo that is used in
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be (harpozo) caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wait till you see his grand canyon leap reply.

 

[Absolutely]

And the Whistle-blower worked in the CIA and was not on the call with Presidents Trump and Zelenski. Instead he learned about the call from Col. Vindman who leaked the conversation to him. His so-called "whistle-blower" complaint, as we learned was loaded with major errors and exaggerations. Had the conversation been related factually, Trump would not be facing impeachment, but that radical communist who runs our US House was already out there on a limb calling for impeachment before Trump released the fairly innocent transcript. Can you see how dangerous it is to accept hearsay evidence?

My understanding was that indeed Polycarp knew John and that Irenaeus was a Polycarp fan but they only met once. At the time when Irenaeus wrote that Paul was banished by Domitian he was recalling the conversation 35 years after it happened. I could be wrong, but this is what I remember reading when I researched this topic. All one has to do is read Revelation and Josephus to see they cover the same ground. If Revelation was written in 96 AD as some suggest, then it was written with the advantage of history and is NOT a prophetic book. I can't accept that.

All your history books are heresay.

We really can not trust any of it

You hang on it,and reframe Gods word with those history books.

I already showed you they thought with israels destruction and dispersion they THOUGHT they were in the gt.

Then,BINGO Israel becomes a nation once again.

You are listening to men that DID NOT SEE THAT.

 

[Absolutely]

It was directed to anyone who believes the events of the Olivet are in our future. You responded to the post but didn't weigh in on the overriding issue, that being that Eusebius, the Bishop of Ceasaria, claimed with almost matter-of-fact certainty that those events Jesus predicted were fulfilled in the War of the Jews as related by Josephus. He goes on to show how. Thus the early church knew but this knowledge sadly, has been almost entirely lost by most churches today.

Catholics,who you see as infallable,rewrote scripture to suit their fancy.

You are simply elaborating on their many misconceptions as if they are true

 

[Absolutely]

EZEK 37? When Babylon invaded Israel in 597-586 BC they wiped out the outer towns and cities before sacking Jerusalem killing Jews by the tens of thousands. The Israeli army was totally wiped out. The nation lay largely in ruins for 70 years. The great military and economic strength of Israel was gone. Ezekiel was taken to either a literal or figurative battlefield from that war and was asked if Israel could rise to power again, "Can these bones come back to life?" God answered that they could and indeed after the captivity Israel was restored to the Land and grew again into a regional power. This was shown as the bones coming back to life.

Exactly what pretrib rapture adherents believe

 

[PlainWord]

Exactly what pretrib rapture adherents believe

So in your mind, Ezekiel saw nothing concerning the pending Babylonian exile which was to happen in his lifetime and instead he skipped over that event, the 70 AD event and jumped to 1948? Thinking like this has led you to false understanding concerning 1/3 of the Bible.

Trust me, Ezekiel wrote about nothing in our times. He was focused on the people in his time. That's what prophets do. They warn their people of pending divine punishment if they don't turn from their destructive ways. This is why many of them were killed by the very people they were trying to warn as they hurt the feelings of the wicked. God wouldn't send prophets meant for us to speak to people of 600 BC. That makes no sense.

 

[PlainWord]

Catholics,who you see as infallable,rewrote scripture to suit their fancy.

You are simply elaborating on their many misconceptions as if they are true

Eusebius was an early church historian. He did not re-write any Biblical work. I am no fan of Catholics. They slaughtered my ancestors in Germany who were Lutheran and Mennonite and some who were Quakers in England.

Rather than disputing Eusebius' claims about the Olivet, you go on personal attacks. That's what people do who have no facts. The man lived 40 miles away from Jerusalem and was about 220 years removed from the events of 70 AD. This would be like me relating events of 1800 shortly after the US Revolutionary War, which I certainly can as my family goes back to the original founders of Pennsylvania in 1683. My 10X GGF was 2nd cousin to William Penn. So if I can speak to events of 1800 as a student of history, why shouldn't we say the same of Eusebius? Why should we take your word for it when you are so far removed in time and distance?

 

[JohnR7]

144K was the Jerusalem church which was located on Mount Zion at the time, the place where David lived.

Archetypes have many manifestations at different times and different places. The Ancient Hebrew language before the tower of Babel is very exact and very precise.

 

[PlainWord]

lol

We which are alive AND REMAIN.

"The living will meet those resurrected IN THE AIR"

you just got busted yet again.

So many verses you reframe

Disgusting.

Wow. Do you not know that the "air" is not the sky in this case, rather it is heaven. It is the spiritual realm. Satan was the "Prince of the Power of the ____________" what? (Eph 2:2 also written by Paul). Satan is called “the prince of the power of the air” because before being cast out of heaven, Satan’s throne was in heaven (Ephesians 6:12, Revelation 12:7-9).

The Greek word for air (aer) in this verse is interchangeable with sky or heaven, the afterlife realm of the blessed (Ephesians 2:2, 2:6; 6:12; Revelation 12:7-9). In many languages, like English, heaven has two meanings: the firmament and the afterlife realm of the blessed. The clouds in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 upon which the saints meet the Lord is the Glory Cloud, the quintessential Biblical sign of the spiritual presence of God (Exodus 40:34-38; Leviticus 16:22; Samuel 22:8-15; Isaiah 66:15-16; Psalm 18:6-16; 50:3; 97:1-5; 144:5).

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says that the saints will be “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air. “The words ‘caught up’ are [from] the Greek word harapazo, it means: ‘to snatch away.’ Interestingly harapazo or “caught up” is also found in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 12:5. Notice that in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 12:5 harapazo or “caught up” is applied to those taken to heaven, the realm of God and angels, not the literal sky. In many languages like English “heaven,” the afterlife realm of the blessed, is the same word for “sky.”

“After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” Will the saints be trapped in the air with the Lord forever, or will the saints be with the Lord forever in heaven? As stated above and implied by the use of harapazo in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 12:5 the “air” mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is heaven (Ephesians 2:2, 2:6; Ephesians 6:12; Revelation 12:7-9) where the saints are said to reign with Christ forever: “[A]nd [Christ] raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus[.]” (Ephesians 2:6). According to the writer of Hebrews, this happens when we die: "27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment."

What is disgusting is the way our modern churches have replaced long established beliefs and teachings with their own desires, such as what Darby did, who started this whole nonsense. 2,000 years of history is on my side, not yours.

 

[PlainWord]

QUOTE ;"This is speaking of Christ returning to the earth, and waging Armageddon, outside Jerusalem, and Hamengog, in Alaska, against Satan's Global, one-world Government's military, which stands against Him. This is the Tribulation of Christ against Satan, and his one-world, Global system, that he holds in place during the 5 months he is in power down here on earth."

LOL. Yeah lets get the context you leave out.

The 144 k (firstfruits) are in heaven,GATHERED FROM THE EARTH,and then,in almost the same breath Jesus appears with a SICKLE and HARVESTS (gathers,takes,snatches,harpozos) RIPE FRUIT.

Now by any stretch firstfruits are FIRST GATHERING PERIOD.

Psssst,that means MAIN HARVEST is IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING.

So yes,lets get the context right....not what you need it to be reframed as to protect your notions.

IOW you need rev 14 reframed.

You have quite the fantastic imagination. First flying demonic scorpions and now this. LOL.

 

[Denise1964]

That's fine if we don't agree. History does tend to repeat and if similar things happen in our future, so be it. We just don't have any Biblical forecast for our future. Revelation was clearly written to 7 first century Churches in Asia Minor located along the western shores of modern Turkey just opposite of where John was banished to Patmos.

If your view is correct then John had absolutely nothing of relevance to say to the Churches and Jesus had no specific message for them. All of these churches are long gone and none still operate today. Also, Revelation starts this way:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

If my view is correct, that John wrote Revelation prior to 70 AD, then the above makes perfect sense. If your view is correct, the above is a lie because there is no way, 2000 years and counting could be considered to be "shortly taking place" nor would the "time be near." Notice it says MUST, not Maybe to shortly take place??

Since I can point out how everything in Revelation was fulfilled in the first century and since Jesus said He was going to return to His generation, I'm going to stick to my views. But thanks for the dialogue.

Are you a born again Christian? Saved by the blood of Jesus... Jesus being born of a virgin - Jesus part of the trinity .. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That Jesus who sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us? Do you have the HOLY SPIRIT living on the inside of you to guide you into all truth? Are you born again and washed in the blood of the lamb?

 

[PlainWord]

Are you a born again Christian? Saved by the blood of Jesus... Jesus being born of a virgin - Jesus part of the trinity .. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That Jesus who sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us? Do you have the HOLY SPIRIT living on the inside of you to guide you into all truth? Are you born again and washed in the blood of the lamb?

Are you questioning my salvation because I don't agree with your futurist views? Shame on you!!!

 

[iamsoandso]

Are you questioning my salvation because I don't agree with your futurist views? Shame on you!!!

Here is a beautiful verse that usually is not noticed because when it is discussed in most debates it is always used in a different usage. It is Paul the Apostle addressing the Thessalonians misunderstanding of eschatology. That is you guessed it, they believed that the day of the Lord was at hand when it was not.

The part that catches my eye is that unlike today when we discuss the very same issues of when something took place or why we think it has not we do not react like Paul did but instead we view one another as enemy's. I rather prefer the way Paul viewed the Thessalonians in that he still loved them and saw them as believers in Jesus but then he also saw he should explain something they did not understand. So for sure the Scriptures state that we should remain in our love of one another even through our differences over these same issues. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2:2-5&version=KJV

 

[GaryA]

Since I can point out how everything in Revelation was fulfilled in the first century...

With regard to Revelation 16:12 - when did the Euphrates dry up and who were the kings of the east?

 

[rily51jean]

Matt 25
The parable of the 10 virgins

All were saved yet half left behind.

I suppose you believe that the wicked are gathered first?

But that would constitute a gathering and removal???
......which you are parked on being against?

According to Matt. 13:36-43 says that. It's not my idea, not what I say, but what Jesus said in the Bible, His word, it always has to be His word and none other. The Parable of the Tares is in Matt 13:24-30, but Jesus' explanation is in Vs.s 36-43. In both the parable itself, and in His explanation of it, the children of Satan are removed first.
Matt. 13:36 "Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said unto them, "He That soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I don't know what you are talking about as to my being parked on being against. I don't wish God's wrath on anybody.

Regarding the 10 virgins, ....5 of them were wise, and 5 of them were foolish, and it specifically states that the door was shut to the 5 foolish Virgins, so no, they did not enter into the marriage feast of the Bridegroom, or more literally, into His kingdom.

 

[rily51jean]

Here is a beautiful verse that usually is not noticed because when it is discussed in most debates it is always used in a different usage. It is Paul the Apostle addressing the Thessalonians misunderstanding of eschatology. That is you guessed it, they believed that the day of the Lord was at hand when it was not.

The part that catches my eye is that unlike today when we discuss the very same issues of when something took place or why we think it has not we do not react like Paul did but instead we view one another as enemy's. I rather prefer the way Paul viewed the Thessalonians in that he still loved them and saw them as believers in Jesus but then he also saw he should explain something they did not understand. So for sure the Scriptures state that we should remain in our love of one another even through our differences over these same issues. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2:2-5&version=KJV

I agree with you on this, but unfortunately we're living "in the days when the love of many will wax cold"(Matt. 24:12), even among Christians. I think, (I could be wrong, but) I think that's why Jesus gave the commandment in John 15:12 "This is My commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
and in vs. 17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."
People are offended in an instant these days.

 

[PlainWord]

With regard to Revelation 16:12 - when did the Euphrates dry up and who were the kings of the east?

Hi Gary,

Keep in mind John was in Patmos writing to churches in Western Turkey, so we are talking about kings from their east. The Kings of the East were then Sohaemus and Antiochus. Both Men Ruled Kingdoms along the Euphrates to the East of Patmos and the Seven Churches of Asia Minor. They aided Titus’ Army in the Siege of Jerusalem. As I'm sure you will recall, Babylon was overthrown by the Persians (from the east) by diverting the Euphrates. According to Josephus, there was a drought and severe heat during the Jewish War, (likely in fulfillment of the fourth bowl). Was this sufficient to dry up the Euphrates enough to cross it? We can only speculate.

King Sohaemus ruled the kingdom of Sophene on the east bank of the Euphrates between Cappadocia and Armenia. Antiochus was the king of Commagene on the west bank of the Euphrates. These kings of the east offered their military and leadership to aid in the defeat of Jerusalem. In addition to the two kings mentioned above, three thousand Roman soldiers drawn from the legions guarding the Euphrates also reinforced Titus’ army on its road to Jerusalem. Thus the fall of Jerusalem, spiritual Babylon, mirrored the fall of ancient, historical Babylon: both cities having been conquered, at least in part, by the crossing of their enemies over the Euphrates.

 

[PlainWord]

Here is a beautiful verse that usually is not noticed because when it is discussed in most debates it is always used in a different usage. It is Paul the Apostle addressing the Thessalonians misunderstanding of eschatology. That is you guessed it, they believed that the day of the Lord was at hand when it was not.

The part that catches my eye is that unlike today when we discuss the very same issues of when something took place or why we think it has not we do not react like Paul did but instead we view one another as enemy's. I rather prefer the way Paul viewed the Thessalonians in that he still loved them and saw them as believers in Jesus but then he also saw he should explain something they did not understand. So for sure the Scriptures state that we should remain in our love of one another even through our differences over these same issues. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2:2-5&version=KJV

Paul didn't question their salvation over their eschatology. Our sister apparently believes that salvation is to do as much with accepting her futurist views as it is accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[PlainWord]

This is likely going to ruffle some futurist's feathers but the truth needs to be shared.

I find it sadly ironic that the Jews of the first century missed the first coming of Christ. Equally sad is the majority of the church has missed the second coming of Christ. In both cases it was due to ignorance. The return of Christ's presence (parousia) whereby He comes to dwell with His church in our Kingdom Age, came without observation (Lk 17:20). This is why the disciples asked what the signs would be of Christ's presence (Mt 24:3). If the return of Christ's presence was to be visible and plain to see, one wouldn't need signs of it.

In Acts 1, the angels informed the Men of Galilee the following and the wording is very important!!

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Notice they were gazing INTO HEAVEN? The door (gate) between the spiritual realm and our physical realm was opened at this time making it possible to see into heaven. Normally, as in the case of Stephen, one can only see into heaven (which is all around us) when one is dying and transitioning.

The fully glorified Christ in the spiritual realm would appear to us as an extremely bright light as Paul attested when he encountered Christ on the road to Damascus. Thus Christ would return as a bright light. Indeed, Christ describes his return as "as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Mat 24:27). According to Tacitus, “[a] sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple.” Tacitus seems to imply that lightning struck the Temple during what appears to be the miraculous appearance of Christ. The Temple stood on the eastern edge of Jerusalem. Therefore, if lightning struck the Temple, as Tacitus seems to imply, then this event seems to represent the literal fulfillment of the “lightning that comes from the east” mentioned in Matthew 24:27.

The fact that glorified beings appear as lightening to us is reinforced in Mat 28:2 "And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow."

Christ goes on to tie the location and timing of His return in the next verse as, "28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Jesus was speaking about the carcass of the great harlot, Jerusalem, filled with hundreds of thousands of dead bodies.

It is my contention that Christ is present with His Church right now as its head and we as His Bride. The futurist must therefore see our church as rudderless, without Christ present with us. This is sad.

 

[PlainWord]

All your history books are heresay.

We really can not trust any of it

You hang on it,and reframe Gods word with those history books.

I already showed you they thought with israels destruction and dispersion they THOUGHT they were in the gt.

Then,BINGO Israel becomes a nation once again.

You are listening to men that DID NOT SEE THAT.

Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 cannot be found in the Bible. Where is Hitler? Where are the 6 million murdered Jews mentioned? Where are the gas chambers? Where are the furnaces? Where are the concentration camps?

The Bible speaks of a GT then a desolation (of Jerusalem), a great slaughter and scattering of the remnant. This happened exactly as predicted in 70 AD at the end of that age. The events of 1938-1948 were the exact opposite. Here we had a GT of the Jews then a re-establishment of a nation. It was a abomination of desolation, not an abomination of re-establishment!!

 

[Denise1964]

Are you questioning my salvation because I don't agree with your futurist views? Shame on you!!!

I simply asked you a question. Almost everyone in America calls themselves a "Christian" and they don't even know what it really means to be one.
I stand on the Word of God and Jesus is the Word. If you don't know HIM personally being born again of HIS blood and HIS Spirit then no you are not a Christian. Being religious is not the same thing. So I ask you again. Are you a BORN AGAIN BELIEVER ?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.