What Changed?

[PaulThomson]

Oh...So God imputed your sins unto Christ, but not Chris's righteousness unto you? But you need to be JUSTIFIED like Abraham was (see Romans 4). Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is NOT sufficient for your salvation because all Christians are still sinners. No one lives in this life a perfect holy life. This is why you NEED to be justified by God with Christ's righteousness since he did for the elect what even the elect cannot do in this life. You need to be declared RIGHTEOUS by God. And if you insist that you don't need Christ's righteousness imputed to you, you will surely die in your sins.

You are simply logically wrong. When all your sins are put under the blood of Jesus, you have become righteous. There is no need to have someone else's righteousness imputed to you to be declared righteous by God. And you have no scripture that says you do. You are simply repeating a doctrine you were taught that the Bible teaches: a doctrine the Bible does not teach.

Can you cite any verse that actually says what you are alleging?

 

[PaulThomson]

Every unregenerate person is at enmity with God...Romans 8:7.

Romans 8:7 does not mention "unregenerate person".

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot* please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

 

[Rufus]

Again, for what purpose?

How else would he be able to judge the two groups? Besides, not even the wicked will suffer the same degree of punishment. God judges all according to their deeds. And as I argued recently on this thread, not all the unregenerate are as evil as they could be since God graciously restrains the evil in this world by direct and indirect means.

 

[Cameron143]

In other words, those of the self-proclaimed chosen few.

Wait...let me guess...you know you are in the Book of Life. Am I right?

Such assertions are baseless.

Are you suggesting one cannot know if they have eternal life?

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 8:7 does not mention "unregenerate person".

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot* please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

How do you understand Proverbs 23:7?

 

[Rufus]

You are simply logically wrong. When all your sins are put under the blood of Jesus, you have become righteous. There is no need to have someone else's righteousness imputed to you to be declared righteous by God. And you have no scripture that says you do. You are simply repeating a doctrine you were taught that the Bible teaches: a doctrine the Bible does not teach.

Can you cite any verse that actually says what you are alleging?

No, it is you who is illogical. Imputation is not a one-way street. It's NOT enough to have "all your sins" put under the blood of Jesus because God requires 100% righteousness to enter his glorious, holy kingdom. You need MORE than your sins forgiven. You need to become the very righteousness of Christ! And that only happens when one is JUSTIFED by God. And justification (a one-time judicial act by God) is nothing less than God declaring/accounting/reckoning/imputing Christ's righteousness to every soul of his elect. Since you categorically reject Christ's righteousness then you unwittingly reject God's greatest gift of all -- JUSTIFICATION by which God declares you to be as righteous as Christ.

And quit slandering me already by lying and telling me that I have provided no biblical proof. I have indeed provided several passages.

 

[Rufus]

Romans 8:7 does not mention "unregenerate person".

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot* please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

So, who are those who are "in the flesh"? And who are those who are "not in the flesh"?

 

[PaulThomson]

So, who are those who are "in the flesh"? And who are those who are "not in the flesh"?

Those who are setting their minds on their flesh are "in the flesh". They may be either unregenerate or regenerate.

1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Those who are setting their mind on their spirit and are cooperating with the Holy Spirit in them are "not in the flesh" but are "in the spirit".

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is dwelling in you.

 

[Cameron143]

Those who are setting their minds on their flesh are "in the flesh". They may be either unregenerate or regenerate.

1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Those who are setting their mind on their spirit and are cooperating with the Holy Spirit in them are "not in the flesh" but are "in the spirit".

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is dwelling in you.

An unregenerate individual can be in the Spirit? Doesn't Romans 8:9 preclude this?

 

[PaulThomson]

How do you understand Proverbs 23:7?

Pron. 23:6 Do not eat the bread of a miser,
Nor desire his delicacies;
7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.
“Eat and drink!” he says to you,
But his heart is not with you.
8 The morsel you have eaten, you will vomit up,
And waste your pleasant words.

Someone with the reputation of being a miser may feign friendliness and generosity, by inviting you to partake of his table, but his heart-felt motives are likely to be contrary to his outward appearance. What he tells you over the meal is likely to endanger your spiritual health, and you will end up having to discard it all, while your own helpful contribution to the conversation will likely have no positive effect on your host.

I don't think this is an absolute injunction to never eat with misers because the results will never be good. Jesus eating with Zacchaeus being a case in point.

What is your point in raising this one verse out of a three verse proverb?

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Those who are setting their minds on their flesh are "in the flesh". They may be either unregenerate or regenerate.

1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Those who are setting their mind on their spirit and are cooperating with the Holy Spirit in them are "not in the flesh" but are "in the spirit".

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is dwelling in you.

An unregenerate individual can be in the Spirit? Doesn't Romans 8:9 preclude this?

Where did I say that an unregenerate individual can be "in the Spirit" ?

 

[PaulThomson]

No, it is you who is illogical. Imputation is not a one-way street. It's NOT enough to have "all your sins" put under the blood of Jesus because God requires 100% righteousness to enter his glorious, holy kingdom. You need MORE than your sins forgiven. You need to become the very righteousness of Christ! And that only happens when one is JUSTIFED by God. And justification (a one-time judicial act by God) is nothing less than God declaring/accounting/reckoning/imputing Christ's righteousness to every soul of his elect. Since you categorically reject Christ's righteousness then you unwittingly reject God's greatest gift of all -- JUSTIFICATION by which God declares you to be as righteous as Christ.

And quit slandering me already by lying and telling me that I have provided no biblical proof. I have indeed provided several passages.

You just posted six lines of claims that you have no scripture to support. Justification is removing sins, not adding someone else's righteous deeds. You are starting to sound like the Roman Catholics who claim that the excess good deeds of Christ and dead saints can be imputed to those on earth.

Wikipedia.
"According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "The 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. ... In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy. ...This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."[2]

I am not slandering you. You have cited texts that do not say what you claim they teach. Therefore they do not constitute "biblical proof" for your claims.

I don't reject Christ's righteousness. He is perfectly righteous. I accept his sinless blood as the cleansing atonement for my sins that renders me righteous in God's sight. I dispute that you have any scripture that says we need His righteousness imputed to us for us to become righteous.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Scripture says we are justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's blood. Where does scripture mention anything equal to "Christ's righteousness is imputed to us"?

 

[Lamar]

Are you suggesting one cannot know if they have eternal life?

"They" as in ourselves personally or "they" as in Christians in general?

 

[Cameron143]

"They" as in ourselves personally or "they" as in Christians in general?

How about is it possible for someone to know they have eternal life? Is this a possibility according to scripture?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13

 

[Rufus]

Those who are setting their minds on their flesh are "in the flesh". They may be either unregenerate or regenerate.

1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Those who are setting their mind on their spirit and are cooperating with the Holy Spirit in them are "not in the flesh" but are "in the spirit".

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is dwelling in you.

Yes, it can be either/or. However, the unregenerate in the flesh are never in the Spirit; for the Holy Spirit is only given to God's covenant people. And the regenerate in the flesh will not remain in their carnality for long; for the children of God cannot live in sin, i.e. live a lifestyle of sin or practice sin. Conversely, this is all the unregenerate can do -- sin, sin and sin some more because they LOVE the darkness which is why they won't come to the Light.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Those who are setting their minds on their flesh are "in the flesh". They may be either unregenerate or regenerate.

1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Those who are setting their mind on their spirit and are cooperating with the Holy Spirit in them are "not in the flesh" but are "in the spirit".

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is dwelling in you

Yes, it can be either/or. However, the unregenerate in the flesh are never in the Spirit; for the Holy Spirit is only given to God's covenant people. And the regenerate in the flesh will not remain in their carnality for long; for the children of God cannot live in sin, i.e. live a lifestyle of sin or practice sin. Conversely, this is all the unregenerate can do -- sin, sin and sin some more because they LOVE the darkness which is why they won't come to the Light.

You are conflating terms. "If the Spirit is dwelling in you, you are not in the flesh", does not infer that if the Spirit is not dwelling in you, you must be in the flesh. To claim so would be the negative inference fallacy.

For example, "If you are dwelling in a palace, you are not in a slum", does not infer that "if you are not dwelling in a palace, you must be in a slum". The carnal Christians had the Holy Spirit, otherwise they would not belong to Christ; but He was not dwelling in them while they were behaving in a carnal way and being carnal, in the flesh. So clearly there is a difference between a person "having the Holy Spirit" but yet "being in the flesh", and the "Holy Spirit dwelling in a person", and that person therefore being in the Spirit.

You are, for some inexplicable reason, equating someone being unregenerate with them being unable to use their unregenerate spirit to hear and to desire to please God. You seem to be factoring in that biblically unfounded presupposition into texts that do not say anything like that.

 

[Rufus]

PaulThomson said:
Those who are setting their minds on their flesh are "in the flesh". They may be either unregenerate or regenerate.

1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Those who are setting their mind on their spirit and are cooperating with the Holy Spirit in them are "not in the flesh" but are "in the spirit".

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God is dwelling in you



You are conflating terms. "If the Spirit is dwelling in you, you are not in the flesh", does not infer that if the Spirit is not dwelling in you, you must be in the flesh. To claim so would be the negative inference fallacy.

For example, "If you are dwelling in a palace, you are not in a slum", does not infer that "if you are not dwelling in a palace, you must be in a slum". The carnal Christians had the Holy Spirit, otherwise they would not belong to Christ; but He was not dwelling in them while they were behaving in a carnal way and being carnal, in the flesh. So clearly there is a difference between a person "having the Holy Spirit" but yet "being in the flesh", and the "Holy Spirit dwelling in a person", and that person therefore being in the Spirit.

You are, for some inexplicable reason, equating someone being unregenerate with them being unable to use their unregenerate spirit to hear and to desire to please God. You seem to be factoring in that biblically unfounded presupposition into texts that do not say anything like that.

The unregenerate who have not the Spirit of God are CONTROLLED by sinful nature and, therefore, CANNOT please God (Rom 8:8). The unregenerate are prisoners of or slaves to their sinful nature. (So much for "free" will!) Prisoners behind bars have only as much freedom to roam about as the space between their walls and bars permit them.

 

[PaulThomson]

The unregenerate who have not the Spirit of God are CONTROLLED by sinful nature and, therefore, CANNOT please God (Rom 8:8). The unregenerate are prisoners of or slaves to their sinful nature. (So much for "free" will!) Prisoners behind bars have only as much freedom to roam about as the space between their walls and bars permit them.

Slaves are not 100% controlled by their masters. They can rebel and disobey their masters at times. Read Philemon. and the history of "night trains" and "the underground railway". You don't understand what slavery is.

 

[Lamar]

How about is it possible for someone to know they have eternal life? Is this a possibility according to scripture?

Of course not. No one knows who is or is not personally listed in the Book of Life.

Any assertion otherwise would be either esoteric or arrogant.