Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.
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Most of your views are resoundingly UNbiblical.
Mark 1:11 refutes your first statement.
Acts 1:9 refutes your third statement.
John 1:2 refutes your fourth statement.
The idea that there is a "Person who exists beside Himself" in not in Scripture... at all, anywhere.
2Ti 2:24, And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26, And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
With this scripture in mind, I respond to you.
Mark 1:11 does not refute my first statement; because of my 2nd statement.
Acts 1:9 does not refute my third statement; because in it I was not saying that the Son did not also ascend.
And John 1:2 simply does not refute my fourth statement.
Your claims are empty.
The Father was still in heaven; He did not take on flesh. If He had, then folks would have seen Him. Yet John stated plainly and clearly, "No one has ever seen God" ("John 1:18). Mark 1:11 shows that a voice from heaven came; meaning that God the Father was in heaven, not on earth in visible form. Your second statement is not founded on Scripture, so it has no evidentiary value in supporting your first.
Nothing whatsoever suggests that Jesus ascended "in the Person of the Holy Spirit". You're making things up as you go along. Jesus ascended bodily (Acts 1:8). Luke records that Jesus "gave up His spirit" in 23:46; it does not say that He gave up the Holy Spirit. As I argued previously, with no attempt at refutation from you, Jesus had a human spirit.
This is silly, because the Father is not the Holy Spirit, nor is He the human spirit of Jesus. Jesus (the Word) is distinct from the Father, hence John 1:2 is adequate to refute your claim. Jesus pre-existed His incarnation, which you implicitly deny.
You still have not answered my question regarding Isaiah 6. You're avoiding it, because it completely disassembles your heretical views on the trinity.
You are simply rejecting the truth to your own detriment, @Dino246.
Jesus said that everyone who has seen Him has seen the Father (John 14:7-11).
Jesus' spirit is the Holy Spirit; because Jesus is God.
In Mark 1:11, yes, the Father was in heaven; He was also on earth in the Person of Jesus Christ, come in human flesh.
He is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh; and He also descended into time in order to take on an added nature of human flesh (John 1:1,14, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
Because it is the nature of One who inhabits eternity that they dwell there for ever, the Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended into time in order to take on an added nature of human flesh.
So, the Father is in heaven and on earth, in two distinct positions concerning time and eternity.
But I should probably shut up because of what Jesus said in Matthew 7:6.
Jesus said that everyone who has seen Him has seen the Father (John 14:7-11).
Jesus' spirit is the Holy Spirit; because Jesus is God.
In Mark 1:11, yes, the Father was in heaven; He was also on earth in the Person of Jesus Christ, come in human flesh.
He is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh; and He also descended into time in order to take on an added nature of human flesh (John 1:1,14, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
Because it is the nature of One who inhabits eternity that they dwell there for ever, the Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended into time in order to take on an added nature of human flesh.
So, the Father is in heaven and on earth, in two distinct positions concerning time and eternity.
But I should probably shut up because of what Jesus said in Matthew 7:6.
I am unaware of how you think the answer to your question dismantles my views on the Trinity. Maybe you can spell it out for me?
Who appeared to Isaiah, as recorded in Isaiah 6?
Before you answer, "God", that's not an adequate response.
Does that fourm deal with cults? I am thinking of adding one that deals with them.
Questions for 'justbyfaith'.
1. When Jesus was resurrected and showed himself to the apostles, he had a glorified (Philippians 3:21) human body of "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39) with his scars of crucifixion still there (John 20:25,27), which he still had at his ascension, forty days later (Acts 1:3), and according to the same author (Luke a physician (Colossians 4:14) who knows about the human body), Jesus then ascended (Psalms 24:1-10, 68:18; Ephesians 4:8, even with a group of resurrected flesh and bone humans, Matthew 27:53) heaven (3rd, 2 Corinthians 12:2,4) in that "same" body (Acts 1:11), as Revelation reveals (Revelation 5:6, "stood a Lamb as it had been slain") to sit at the right hand of the Majesty on high (the Father, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1), to which it is stated by the angels standing by, he is to return with, even as prophecy declares:
Hab 3:4: "And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power."
So, do you believe Jesus entered heaven in a glorified human body with the scars of the resurrection and still has those mark, with which he will return, or not, and if not, what do you believe took place and/or will take place between burial and 2nd Advent?
2. If Jesus did not ascend to heaven with a resurrected and glorified human body, how will the rest of saved humanity enter heaven?
3. Do you believe that God was always "triune" (citing yourself) in eternity past, or did God take upon that attribute at some point of time, and if so when?
4. Do you believe that the Father is from eternity a Father, or did God take upon that attribute at some point of time, and if so when?
5. Do you believe that God was from eternity relational, or did God take on that attribute at some point of time, and if so when, and if God was from eternity relational, with whom was God relational with?
6. Do you believe that God is love from eternity, or did God take on that attribute at some point of time, and if so when, and if God was from eternity love, with whom was God love?
7. Jesus is the example of how humanity will enter heaven, and if Jesus ceases to be a flesh and bone person, what will humanity become when they enter heaven? Do they become part of God and cease to be individual flesh and bone human beings?
1. When Jesus was resurrected and showed himself to the apostles, he had a glorified (Philippians 3:21) human body of "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39) with his scars of crucifixion still there (John 20:25,27), which he still had at his ascension, forty days later (Acts 1:3), and according to the same author (Luke a physician (Colossians 4:14) who knows about the human body), Jesus then ascended (Psalms 24:1-10, 68:18; Ephesians 4:8, even with a group of resurrected flesh and bone humans, Matthew 27:53) heaven (3rd, 2 Corinthians 12:2,4) in that "same" body (Acts 1:11), as Revelation reveals (Revelation 5:6, "stood a Lamb as it had been slain") to sit at the right hand of the Majesty on high (the Father, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1), to which it is stated by the angels standing by, he is to return with, even as prophecy declares:
Hab 3:4: "And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power."
So, do you believe Jesus entered heaven in a glorified human body with the scars of the resurrection and still has those mark, with which he will return, or not, and if not, what do you believe took place and/or will take place between burial and 2nd Advent?
2. If Jesus did not ascend to heaven with a resurrected and glorified human body, how will the rest of saved humanity enter heaven?
3. Do you believe that God was always "triune" (citing yourself) in eternity past, or did God take upon that attribute at some point of time, and if so when?
4. Do you believe that the Father is from eternity a Father, or did God take upon that attribute at some point of time, and if so when?
5. Do you believe that God was from eternity relational, or did God take on that attribute at some point of time, and if so when, and if God was from eternity relational, with whom was God relational with?
6. Do you believe that God is love from eternity, or did God take on that attribute at some point of time, and if so when, and if God was from eternity love, with whom was God love?
7. Jesus is the example of how humanity will enter heaven, and if Jesus ceases to be a flesh and bone person, what will humanity become when they enter heaven? Do they become part of God and cease to be individual flesh and bone human beings?
You will have to ask them. I find that most that start a cult ministry are themselves cultish in faith and practice. Just my experience.
The words "only begotten" do not refer to the 'incarnation'. The Son was the "only begotten" from eternity before humanity ever existed. Read John 1:18, 3:16 carefully. The Father gave the Son (only begotten) before the Son appeared on earth in the likeness of sinful flesh. 1 John 4:9 confirms this:
1Jn 4:9: "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him."
"Only begotten", monogene (etc) does not have anything to do with time, or 'incarnation'. It refers to the nature of the Son in relation to the Father. The Son is the only of one of the same nature of Deity as the Father. Angels are created, as are humanity, both with differing nature's than Deity and differing from one another. The created angels and created humanity are sons to God, but not in the same way that the Son is, because of His nature as Deity.
I've heard that 'unique' or 'one-of-a-kind' come closer to the meaning of monogenes than does 'only-begotten'. They are also familiar to modern readers, whereas 'begotten' is really only familiar to folks who read the KJV... and many of them don't have a handle on what it means.
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to teach the children how to pray
“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
John 17:4-5 KJV
when Jesus was born he was manifest as the son of man the promised messiah his time in earth was For our benifit so we could know the true God.
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
1 John 5:7 KJV
the word became flesh and dwelt among us
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
John 1:1-3 KJV
he became one of us for a short time so we could know him in full
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9 KJV
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
Isaiah 9:6 KJV
the thing about Jesus is he’s not just one identity he is father , son and Holy Ghost in one being who was manifest bodily in Christ the fullness of God.
“I and my Father are one.”
John 10:30 KJV
the father is manifest in heaven and son manifest on earth one and the same manifest in two realms and the holy soirit came from heaven and lives in our heart making us of the same one the children of the father made in the image of the son
just as he took on our nature and form we too will take on his nature and form
Of glorified spirit. Christ is God stepping into the natural realm to show himself to mankind so we can come to know the true God
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20 KJV
God has manifest himself to us in Christ
And after he had overcome mans issue he was glorified as he was in the beginning all might God the Father of creation. When you see the gospel your seeing God in the flesh calling mankind into the heavens where he sits on the throne
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
he lowered himself in order to overcome what had us bound and returned to his eternal glory the result was a new high priest and mediator between God and mankind the Christ of the gospel. And he’s able to give us the soirit of Gods son the spirit of Jesus Christ the man that makes us the children
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
we receive the spirit of Jesus the Holy Spirit of God who was made flesh after he lived perfectly in the flesh and laid down his life for us
“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
Luke 23:46 KJV
Then when he was received into heaven glorified
“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Acts 2:33 KJV
God is one Father and son and his spirit is given to believers through his act of becoming flesh and overcoming the flesh and out faith in him
if we’re talking about Jesus it’s God or the holy ghost it’s God or the father it’s God he’s shown himself to us in the ot , the gospel and then through the disciples receiving his spirit
he is one but for us to understand and be saved he’s broken it down for us Father , son and Holy Ghost
to teach the children how to pray
“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
John 17:4-5 KJV
when Jesus was born he was manifest as the son of man the promised messiah his time in earth was For our benifit so we could know the true God.
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
1 John 5:7 KJV
the word became flesh and dwelt among us
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
John 1:1-3 KJV
he became one of us for a short time so we could know him in full
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9 KJV
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
Isaiah 9:6 KJV
the thing about Jesus is he’s not just one identity he is father , son and Holy Ghost in one being who was manifest bodily in Christ the fullness of God.
“I and my Father are one.”
John 10:30 KJV
the father is manifest in heaven and son manifest on earth one and the same manifest in two realms and the holy soirit came from heaven and lives in our heart making us of the same one the children of the father made in the image of the son
just as he took on our nature and form we too will take on his nature and form
Of glorified spirit. Christ is God stepping into the natural realm to show himself to mankind so we can come to know the true God
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20 KJV
God has manifest himself to us in Christ
And after he had overcome mans issue he was glorified as he was in the beginning all might God the Father of creation. When you see the gospel your seeing God in the flesh calling mankind into the heavens where he sits on the throne
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
he lowered himself in order to overcome what had us bound and returned to his eternal glory the result was a new high priest and mediator between God and mankind the Christ of the gospel. And he’s able to give us the soirit of Gods son the spirit of Jesus Christ the man that makes us the children
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
we receive the spirit of Jesus the Holy Spirit of God who was made flesh after he lived perfectly in the flesh and laid down his life for us
“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
Luke 23:46 KJV
Then when he was received into heaven glorified
“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Acts 2:33 KJV
God is one Father and son and his spirit is given to believers through his act of becoming flesh and overcoming the flesh and out faith in him
if we’re talking about Jesus it’s God or the holy ghost it’s God or the father it’s God he’s shown himself to us in the ot , the gospel and then through the disciples receiving his spirit
he is one but for us to understand and be saved he’s broken it down for us Father , son and Holy Ghost
I have a cultic background. After being born again, I studied under Walter Martin. I have been witnessing to people in and out of cults for decades. Revivals tend to follow me.
Hi Brother, I see monogene as being only unique. I am filmilar with independent ministries who claims the Son of God came into existence before creation. Please, clarifly your positions to remove all doubts. Thanks, Daniel
I don't recall ever teaching children how to pray or praying to the Father in front of them. What texts do you have in mind? A little exploring now.
John 17
English Standard Version
The High Priestly Prayer
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.
20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”