Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

Dino246 · Feb 21, 2022

Bahahaha! Not even a little!

There is only one God. Scripture is clear on this matter, so your "second God" idea is absurd.

There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture to suggest that God is divisible into fractions, so your '1/3 of God' idea is absurd.

Your question is a false dichotomy, because there are other options not presented therein.

justbyfaith said:

Therefore you don't know what it means, nor do you understand what a definition is. Try looking it up in a dictionary.

justbyfaith said:

You used the term, you define it. The burden of proof reversal isn't going to work on me.

TheLearner · Feb 21, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

James 2:19, doesn't say the "two distinct Persons" are "One [Being]".

James 2:19 refers to the family JEHOVAH Elohiym as a harmonious trio that are contrasted to the plethora of false gods in opposition.

James does not say that the three individual Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "One [Being]" anywhere. It is nowhere in scripture. In fact, several times in the OT the words are plural.

John the Apostle, knew from Genesis 1:1, and throughout, that there have eternally been 3 persons, 3 divine witnesses, acting together in a musical chord, a trio, all in harmony together, in at-one-ment.

Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 KJB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:3 KJB - And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 1:6 KJB - And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7 KJB - And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

The word “God”, from the Hebrew [H430], “אלהים”, “'ĕlôhı̂ym”, is plural in Genesis 1:1 KJB, but more than this, in Hebrew there are two kinds of plural, a dual plural [2 only] and true plural [3 or greater]. This word is in the True [3 or greater] plural.

[1] The Father - “... God said ...”, speaking to the Son,

[2] The Son - “... God made ...”

[3] The Holy Spirit - “... the Spirit of God moved upon ...”

We see that God the Father orchestrated, which the Son honoured the Father, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit was moved and was breathed, and thus all 3, the “trio” are the “Makers” [Ecclesiastes 12:1 HOT & so-called LXX and *], see also Job 33:4; Isaiah 43:7; Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:2, 2:10; Revelation 4:11, etc KJB.

What about when 'God' is referred to by plural ones?

"Elohiym" (Genesis 1:1 HOT, etc) x (a lot) (true plural, 3 or greater form)

"us" x 4 (plural pronoun), "our" x 3 (plural pronoun):

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen_11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Isa_6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

"we" x 3 (plural pronoun):

Joh_3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Yet, there are more:

"Creators" x 1 (Ecclesiastes 12:1 HOT, "בוראיך") (plural pronoun)

"Makers" x 3 (Job 35:10 HOT, "עשׂי") & (Psalms 149:2 HOT, "בעשׂיו") & (Isaiah 54:5 HOT, "עשׂיך") (plural pronoun)

"Holy Ones" x 1 (Proverbs 9:10 HOT, "קדשׁים") (plural pronoun)

This is just a sample of what is found in the Hebrew Masoretic OT. There are more.

Verbs are plural in association with Elohiym:

Gen 20:13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.

"התעו" (wander) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Gen 35:7 And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother.

"נגלו" (revealed) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Deu 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

"קרבים" (nigh) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

"קדשׁים" (Holy) connected to Elohiym is plural.

2Sa 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?

"הלכו" (went) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Psa 58:11 (vs 12 HOT) So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

"שׁפטים" (judge) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Pro 30:3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

"קדשׁים" (holy) connected to vs 4 with the "name" (of the Father), and that of "son's name".

Even the word "Adonai" ("לאדני") is given mostly/majority in the plural (Examples: Gen 18:30; Ex 34:23; Deut 10:17; Joshua 3:11,13; Ps 45:11; 114:7; 135:5; Mal 1:6).

I do not recognizes these sources:
https://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/notional-preexistence/

"We see that God the Father orchestrated, which the Son honoured the Father, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit was moved and was breathed, and thus all 3, the “trio” are the “Makers” [Ecclesiastes 12:1 HOT & so-called LXX and *], see also Job 33:4; Isaiah 43:7; Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:2, 2:10; Revelation 4:11, etc KJB. "
We see that God the Father orchestrated, which the Son honoured the Father, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit was moved and was breathed, and thus all 3, the “trio” are the “Makers” [Ecclesiastes 12:1 HOT & so-called LXX and *], see also Job 33:4; Isaiah 43:7; Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:2, 2:10; Revelation 4:11, etc KJB.
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...tc-dont-want-you-to-know-about-1.41218/page-2

https://books.google.com/books?id=D...v=onepage&q="בוראיך") (plural pronoun&f=false

TheLearner · Feb 21, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

https://biblehub.com/text/john/17-21.htm Brother, is this the study source you are using? If so, it would be nice to give the links, so all can learn from them.

Thanks,
Daniel

TheLearner · Feb 21, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

Now, consider the definition of “one” in regards God, the disciples, marriage, covenant and atonement:

Romans 12:16 KJB - Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Romans 15:6 KJB - That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:10 KJB - Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

2 Corinthians 13:11 KJB - Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Ephesians 4:3 KJB - Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:4 KJB - There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Philippians 1:27 KJB - Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 2:2 KJB - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Philippians 4:2 KJB - I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

1 Peter 3:8 KJB - Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

As seen, even the wicked can be in a similar state:

Revelation 17:13 KJB - These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Revelation 17:13 GNT - οὗτοι μίαν γνώμην ἔχουσι, καὶ τὴν δύναμιν καὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν αὐτῶν τῷ θηρίῳ διδόασιν.

Revelation 17:13 GNT-TR+ - ουτοιG3778 D-NPM μιανG1520 A-ASF γνωμηνG1106 N-ASF εχουσινG2192 V-PAI-3P καιG2532 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF δυναμινG1411 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF εξουσιανG1849 N-ASF εαυτωνG1438 F-3GPM τωG3588 T-DSN θηριωG2342 N-DSN διαδιδωσουσινG1239 V-PAI-3P

Revelation 17:17 KJB - For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Revelation 17:17 GNT - ὁ γὰρ Θεὸς ἔδωκεν εἰς τὰς καρδίας αὐτῶν ποιῆσαι τὴν γνώμην αὐτοῦ, καὶ ποιῆσαι μίαν γνώμην καὶ δοῦναι τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτῶν τῷ θηρίῳ ἄχρι τελεσθῶσιν οἱ λόγοι τοῦ Θεοῦ.

Revelation 17:17 GNT-TR+ - οG3588 T-NSM γαρG1063 CONJ θεοςG2316 N-NSM εδωκενG1325 V-AAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP ταςG3588 T-APF καρδιαςG2588 N-APF αυτωνG846 P-GPM ποιησαιG4160 V-AAN τηνG3588 T-ASF γνωμηνG1106 N-ASF αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ ποιησαιG4160 V-AAN μιανG1520 A-ASF γνωμηνG1106 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ δουναιG1325 V-2AAN τηνG3588 T-ASF βασιλειανG932 N-ASF αυτωνG846 P-GPM τωG3588 T-DSN θηριωG2342 N-DSN αχριG891 ADV τελεσθηG5055 V-APS-3S ταG3588 T-NPN ρηματαG4487 N-NPN τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM

The Bible [King James Bible for English] is a specific example of this “at-one-ment”, itself not only being a work of God and man-kind [even as Jesus is God and man], it is also “one” book, being many books, many prophets, many people, that all agree in one, even as the “law” and the “testimony” agree together with one mind, one purpose, though they are God's “two witnesses” [plural] agreeing together in witness [singular]. The 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, though each a differing personal witness, all agree together when compared prayerfully:

Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

John 8:17 KJB - It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Acts 10:43 KJB - To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 15:15 KJB - And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Romans 3:21 KJB - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

2 Corinthians 13:1 KJB - This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Etc.

These are JEHOVAH Elohiym's own standard for testimony, or witness. This is why there must always be 2 or 3 persons to witness. Jesus Himself stated that this is the way it was to always be:

John 5:31 KJB - If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 8:13 KJB - The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

John 8:14 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

John 8:18 KJB - I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

https://www.christianityboard.com/t...you-to-know-about-1.41218/page-2#post-1054703

TheLearner · Feb 21, 2022

justbyfaith said:

How are the Father, Son and Holy Ghost one Spirit, one Lord, and one God?

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) who incarnated as a Man (1 Timothy 3:16 (kjv), Isaiah 9:6, John 14:7-11), taking on an added nature of human flesh (John 1:1,14, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

Thus the Spirit who inhabits eternity is the same Spirit who dwells in Jesus Christ.

Jesus released that Spirit (with the title of Holy Ghost) back to the Father in eternity, in Luke 23:46.

For when the Father descended, it was impossible that He should have VACATED ETERNITY.

Because it is the nature of those who inhabit eternity, that they dwell in it for ever.

Hi Brother, friend God does not limit himself via physical created something, tired forgetting what I was writing.

TheLearner · Feb 21, 2022

pick up at #1,169

justbyfaith · Feb 21, 2022

Dino246 said:

What other options are there?

I see only one other option...that God Himself (the Father) became a Man...

But by all means present your other options.

I do not need to define the term to you in order to understand what it means.

Since you were the one asking what it means, you look it up in a dictionary.

Okay, fine.

That Jesus was begotten in the incarnation means that He was given a body of human flesh and His Spirit came to dwell in that body of human flesh; creating a distinct Person who is, in Spirit, the same Spirit as the Father.

Now I know that the concept of Jesus being eternally begotten is slightly different; however that is the false dichotomy.

That would have to do with an eternal mirror being created in heaven and Jesus being on the other side of that mirror from the Father.

However that would indicate two Gods rather than one so I reject that idea.

I believe that the Son was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh"; and that in this, the one eternal Spirit that inhabits eternity descended into time to take on an added nature of human flesh.

For the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24);

And the Son, being also God, is a Spirit (John 4:24).

However, there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

Therefore the Father and the Son are in effect the same Spirit; albeit the Son is come in human flesh (John 1:1,14, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

And Jesus was begotten (given a body of human flesh, Hebrews 10:5, and thus human life) in the incarnation.

Dino246 · Feb 21, 2022

justbyfaith said:

I'm not doing your homework for you. You need to read Scripture for yourself to learn the truth of this matter... which certainly isn't either of the options you presented.

justbyfaith said:

No, you don't, but demonstrating that you do understand it is appropriate when you are using it as a key part of your assertions.

justbyfaith said:

I will never ask you what a word means in order to learn its objective definition. I may occasionally ask to determine the sense in which you are using a word, where it is commonly used in several senses and the context is insufficient.

justbyfaith said:

My suspicion was correct, and you are incorrect.

John 1:2-3 He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Hebrews 1:2 in these last days he [God] has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

How could Jesus have been begotten in the incarnation when He existed prior to it? It is clear from these two passage that Jesus was a distinct person at creation. Your position is simply wrong.

justbyfaith said:

Don't use terms that you don't understand; doing so demonstrates your ignorance.

ChristianSubMissionary · Feb 21, 2022

TheLearner said:

I am actually citing myself from another forum.

justbyfaith · Feb 21, 2022

Dino246 said:

In other words, you got nothin'.

btw, I myself do not believe that Jesus is 1/3 of God; and neither do I believe that He is a 2nd God...

Jesus, when He ascended, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); to again exist outside of time (Isaiah 57:15).

So, He can easily be begotten in the incarnation and yet be the singular Creator of the Universe;

Since also, in His pre-incarnate form He is the Father, a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh.

justbyfaith · Feb 21, 2022

Isaiah 44:24 (kjv).

Dino246 · Feb 21, 2022

justbyfaith said:

Yawn.

justbyfaith said:

That isn't what Isaiah 57:15 says. There is no "again" there, and it is not implied.

justbyfaith said:

Playing with words isn't going to get you any closer to understanding this matter.

justbyfaith said:

Wrong again. The passages I quoted refute this idea.

Dino246 · Feb 21, 2022

justbyfaith said:

Who appeared to Isaiah in chapter 6?

justbyfaith · Feb 21, 2022

Dino246 said:

I wasn't using Isaiah 57:15 to say that; only to say that God, the Lord, Jehovah, exists outside of time.

See Isaiah 44:24.

Nope.

Dino246 · Feb 21, 2022

justbyfaith said:

That's a good summary of your grasp of Scripture on this subject.

justbyfaith · Feb 22, 2022

Jesus, being God, exists outside of time after His ascension since He rises to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); including time.

justbyfaith · Feb 22, 2022

Dino246 said:

Who created the heavens and the earth by Himself and all alone (Isaiah 44:24)?

ChristianSubMissionary · Feb 22, 2022

justbyfaith said:

Do you realize that Isaiah 57:15 speaks of the Father and Son sitting together, dwelling in eternal relationship?

Isa 57:15: "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

justbyfaith · Feb 22, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

Yes, most definitely.

The Father, who is a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh, descended into time and took on an added nature of human flesh.

And, He did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended. Because it is the nature of One who inhabits eternity that He dwells in it for ever.

Then, in the Person of the Holy Ghost, He ascended again (Luke 23:46) to inhabit eternity.

So, when Jesus released His Spirit (the Father, John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11) back into eternity, it created the reality that God (the Father) exists side-by-side with God (the Father; even the Holy Ghost) in eternity (John 1:1-2). And it is the same Person who exists beside Himself (and no, I am not saying that God is crazy; I am saying that He is Triune).

Pilgrimshope · Feb 22, 2022

justbyfaith said:

amen the Heavenly Father became what we needed or we were lost . He became a high priest and intercessor that is without his own faults that he was able to bear our faults and yet reconcile us to himself.

he only appears as three for the purpose of saving us the Son is the same manifest in the flesh , and the Holy Ghost is how we are connected to God through the son when we receive him.

the issue was this

“But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. ….The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.

For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:

and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:2, 8-12, 14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and this was the answer because there was no man worthy to intercede for mans sin and offer salvation

“For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:10-11, 14-15, 17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the levites had become corrupt like all men and no one was worthy to mediate a relationship between God and man so God saw this and interceded for us becoming one of us and a perfect high priest who was able to enter into the veil of the most holy place for us and advocate and intercede for us in the presence of God

there was no light so the light became visable to man

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

father son and counsellor

Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

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