I didn't commit adultery. Neither did I try to get out of the marriage because of it.Adultery.
Understanding God’s election
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Figures.
Doing better, just going through a little bit of a transition.
How are you?
I'm doing awesome.
You have to be careful with the term...transition. Does the transition include pronouns?
amen !
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:9-10 KJV
Jesus followers began to be called “ Christians” At Antioch those who learned from and followed his ways ot in other words jesus disciples began to be called “ Christian’s “
That they were Christians and followed Him was because they truly believed that He alone was God, Lord, Savior, and King. But just mimicking His actions, of itself, would not make anyone into a Christian (if that is your point). Until one first believes and is anchored in such belief, they are not actually Christian - and that can only occur as a gift from God through salvation and becoming born-again. Being a true a Christian along with the actions that accompany it, originates within and moves without, not the reverse - it all is God's work, none of it ours.
But that's not the point. No one is arguing that we don't have will/choice/agency. This is where the biggest misunderstanding is, and to be honest only those who are born again in truth can even understand what this truly means. What we are saying is what the Bible teaches, our "will" is NEVER "free". It is ALWAYS a slave to our nature. If we have the fallen nature we are born to, the flesh, we are born cut off from God, spiritually dead. Being born a sinner doesn't mean we come out guilty of every sin, it means we are born cut off from our God, because of Adam, we are born of the flesh, there is no way for this to happen any different, and there is no way we can fix it. Every human being born was born this way save 1. Jesus. Why is that? He was not born of Adam, He was not born of the flesh. This is why the virgin birth was 10000% necessary, and such a perfect and genius example of His awesomeness. Mary was made pregnant by the Spirit, not of the flesh. Jesus is not born of the flesh, but of the Spirit.
Back to the main point, when we are born we are born of the flesh, we are born sinners. All who sin are slaves of sin. We are born enslaved to sin. But you say (general question not "you") "we can be freed of sin through Jesus", then we have free will for sure right? Well Paul says in Romans, "Do you not know that when you continually offer yourselves to someone to do his will, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey, eitherof sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness".
What???? Am I trying to say when we are born again that just means we are trading masters? Yep. At least that's what I understand the Bible to be saying with His Spirit guiding me to all truth. However this guidance has caused me to change my view on quite a few things so far in about 12 years of following Him, so I can never say I have it all right and He can't open my eyes to things I'm missing even now, but this is where I'm at now.
I do believe we have choice and it matters what we choose. His word is very clear on that as well, but when we say there is no "free" will, we are just saying that our "will" is always enslaved to our nature, or like I say, "we are slaves of sin, or slaves if Him".
So none of these verses contridict what we're saying. No not one.
But that's not the point. No one is arguing that we don't have will/choice/agency. This is where the biggest misunderstanding is, and to be honest only those who are born again in truth can even understand what this truly means. What we are saying is what the Bible teaches, our "will" is NEVER "free". It is ALWAYS a slave to our nature. If we have the fallen nature we are born to, the flesh, we are born cut off from God, spiritually dead. Being born a sinner doesn't mean we come out guilty of every sin, it means we are born cut off from our God, because of Adam, we are born of the flesh, there is no way for this to happen any different, and there is no way we can fix it. Every human being born was born this way save 1. Jesus. Why is that? He was not born of Adam, He was not born of the flesh. This is why the virgin birth was 10000% necessary, and such a perfect and genius example of His awesomeness. Mary was made pregnant by the Spirit, not of the flesh. Jesus is not born of the flesh, but of the Spirit.
Back to the main point, when we are born we are born of the flesh, we are born sinners. All who sin are slaves of sin. We are born enslaved to sin. But you say (general question not "you") "we can be freed of sin through Jesus", then we have free will for sure right? Well Paul says in Romans, "Do you not know that when you continually offer yourselves to someone to do his will, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey, eitherof sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness".
What???? Am I trying to say when we are born again that just means we are trading masters? Yep. At least that's what I understand the Bible to be saying with His Spirit guiding me to all truth. However this guidance has caused me to change my view on quite a few things so far in about 12 years of following Him, so I can never say I have it all right and He can't open my eyes to things I'm missing even now, but this is where I'm at now.
I do believe we have choice and it matters what we choose. His word is very clear on that as well, but when we say there is no "free" will, we are just saying that our "will" is always enslaved to our nature, or like I say, "we are slaves of sin, or slaves if Him".
So none of these verses contridict what we're saying. No not one.
Re "No one is arguing that we don't have will/choice/agency.":
Well, TULIPists argue that the nonelect have no choice/chance to be saved by believing in the U & L.
“That they were Christians and followed Him was because they truly believed that He alone was God, Lord, Savior, and King. But just mimicking His actions, of itself, would not make anyone into a Christian (if that is your point). “
ummm no lol my point is not that we shouldn’t believe Jesus is Christ and mimick him ….
The misunderstanding lies with the Calvinists and their well worn rubrics.But that's not the point. No one is arguing that we don't have will/choice/agency. This is where the biggest misunderstanding is, and to be honest only those who are born again in truth can even understand what this truly means. What we are saying is what the Bible teaches, our "will" is NEVER "free". It is ALWAYS a slave to our nature. If we have the fallen nature we are born to, the flesh, we are born cut off from God, spiritually dead. Being born a sinner doesn't mean we come out guilty of every sin, it means we are born cut off from our God, because of Adam, we are born of the flesh, there is no way for this to happen any different, and there is no way we can fix it. Every human being born was born this way save 1. Jesus. Why is that? He was not born of Adam, He was not born of the flesh. This is why the virgin birth was 10000% necessary, and such a perfect and genius example of His awesomeness. Mary was made pregnant by the Spirit, not of the flesh. Jesus is not born of the flesh, but of the Spirit.
Back to the main point, when we are born we are born of the flesh, we are born sinners. All who sin are slaves of sin. We are born enslaved to sin. But you say (general question not "you") "we can be freed of sin through Jesus", then we have free will for sure right? Well Paul says in Romans, "Do you not know that when you continually offer yourselves to someone to do his will, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey, eitherof sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness".
What???? Am I trying to say when we are born again that just means we are trading masters? Yep. At least that's what I understand the Bible to be saying with His Spirit guiding me to all truth. However this guidance has caused me to change my view on quite a few things so far in about 12 years of following Him, so I can never say I have it all right and He can't open my eyes to things I'm missing even now, but this is where I'm at now.
I do believe we have choice and it matters what we choose. His word is very clear on that as well, but when we say there is no "free" will, we are just saying that our "will" is always enslaved to our nature, or like I say, "we are slaves of sin, or slaves if Him".
So none of these verses contridict what we're saying. No not one.
God's call to choose Him and seek His face and seek His righteousness and seize the offer of salvation and choose to enter the covenant of life and peace is supersaturated in the Word. Rahab and the Gibeonites are exhibit #1.
In fact, that is the fundamental message: choose Him and live, reject Him and die.
I will throw this in the discussion, maybe it's already been posted, but here goes...
Mathew
22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them [a]spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, [b]take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Psalm 76:8-9
You caused judgment to be heard from heaven;
The earth feared and was still
When God arose to judgment,
To save all the humble of the earth. Selah.
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-As-Judge
Isaiah 66:2
“For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.
“But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-And-The-Humble
Mathew
22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them [a]spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, [b]take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Psalm 76:8-9
You caused judgment to be heard from heaven;
The earth feared and was still
When God arose to judgment,
To save all the humble of the earth. Selah.
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-As-Judge
Isaiah 66:2
“For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.
“But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-And-The-Humble
"Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, That we should be called children of God!"
Your very own signature line proclaims what those of the reformed faith believe. Bestowed: to present as a gift; give; confer (usually followed by on or upon ): The trophy was bestowed upon the winner. Synonyms: accord, award, vouchsafe, grant.
Perhaps you are reformed and don't want to admit it!
As if your "thelogians and scholars" don't have their personal agendas? They're as lily white and pure as the driven snow, heh?
Hmmm, a couple I consider the interpretation they give comes from the Dallas Theological Seminary which is predominantly BAPTIST.... you know....REFORMED!!
And they still disagree with your hand picked sites.
Beautifully stated, Jim. The fact that man is born with a will bent away from God, and a mind inherently hostile to Him, and a heart that needs replacing, seems an impossible thing for some to admit even though these things are explicitly stated in Scripture, along with the fact that it is not according to the effort, desire, or will of man, but the mercy, desire, and will of God. With the heart one believes. Man is corrupt, his heart is wicked beyond cure, he cannot change himself, that bad tree cannot produce the good fruit of faith... but they will say it can! Their claim amounts to the heart of the natural man, that stony ground, is good enough to accept the Seed of the Word of God even though Scripture explicitly states that the natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. The gospel message is foolishness to such a person, but in the theology of free willers, the natural man makes a moral decision to use his imaginary free will to believe that which he is opposed to, while he is yet captive to the will of the devil, a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, incapable of submitting to God's law, and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.But that's not the point. No one is arguing that we don't have will/choice/agency. This is where the biggest misunderstanding is, and to be honest only those who are born again in truth can even understand what this truly means. What we are saying is what the Bible teaches, our "will" is NEVER "free". It is ALWAYS a slave to our nature. If we have the fallen nature we are born to, the flesh, we are born cut off from God, spiritually dead. Being born a sinner doesn't mean we come out guilty of every sin, it means we are born cut off from our God, because of Adam, we are born of the flesh, there is no way for this to happen any different, and there is no way we can fix it. Every human being born was born this way save 1. Jesus. Why is that? He was not born of Adam, He was not born of the flesh. This is why the virgin birth was 10000% necessary, and such a perfect and genius example of His awesomeness. Mary was made pregnant by the Spirit, not of the flesh. Jesus is not born of the flesh, but of the Spirit.
Back to the main point, when we are born we are born of the flesh, we are born sinners. All who sin are slaves of sin. We are born enslaved to sin. But you say (general question not "you") "we can be freed of sin through Jesus", then we have free will for sure right? Well Paul says in Romans, "Do you not know that when you continually offer yourselves to someone to do his will, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey, eitherof sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness".
What???? Am I trying to say when we are born again that just means we are trading masters? Yep. At least that's what I understand the Bible to be saying with His Spirit guiding me to all truth. However this guidance has caused me to change my view on quite a few things so far in about 12 years of following Him, so I can never say I have it all right and He can't open my eyes to things I'm missing even now, but this is where I'm at now.
I do believe we have choice and it matters what we choose. His word is very clear on that as well, but when we say there is no "free" will, we are just saying that our "will" is always enslaved to our nature, or like I say, "we are slaves of sin, or slaves if Him".
So none of these verses contradict what we're saying. No not one.
Exactly right, since every moral agent's will (including God's!) is governed by his nature. If man had the power to overcome his nature, then statistically after all these millennia and billions upon billions of people later, at least a few perfectly righteous mere mortals would have emerged on the world stage by now. But the fact that man cannot not sin proves conclusively that man has no such power to overcome what he is in his own essence. For that matter...neither can God overrule his nature!
Jeremiah 17 verse 9 plus John 3 verses 19-20 ~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? This is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.
Of course they "disagree". When did DTS become reformed? And the vast majority of Baptists are not reformed, for your info!