Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Yes that is the point we have been trying to help them see.

Laughable. Lying does not help anyone.

 

[cv5]

I think what I have found to be very disturbing is the fact that they cannot preach personal Gospel because that would entail a person believing which the person cannot do, so [INSTEAD] they preach "Christ Jesus and Lord and Saviour" and then God finds [KIDNAPS FOR THE SHOTGUN WEDDING] His preselected "Bride"

Yep. Thats the way I see it.
A false gospel, impotent and useless.

 

[Magenta]

No one believes or disbelieves this until they hear it but I’m not too sure how complex it is

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sinners gotta hear that or they can’t believe it and be saved . It’s not complex it’s about belief “ God sent his son who died for your sins and rose from the dead on your behalf ? It’s not hard to grasp the concept it’s a matter of belief or disbelief because other things have our heart

Yes, I agree that there is simplicity in Christ, but that is not what we were even talking about.

The complexities involved in salvation dialogues is quite something else.

Other things have our hearts, huh?

Gosh you sound like you say that as if it is not at the very core of what I have been talking about all along.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

I believe both. God both elects, and in His coming to an individual woos them to be His bride.

If I am understanding you correctly, then I disagree with you. Yes, God elects, but not individuals. Instead, God has elected or chosen Christ as his means of salvation. Those who are then wooed by God, via the Holy Spirit, to come to Christ, and those who willfully submit to such wooings, are then elected or chosen IN CHRIST. Do you see the difference?

 

[HeIsHere]

No one believes or disbelieves this until they hear it but I’m not too sure how complex it is

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sinners gotta hear that or they can’t believe it and be saved . It’s not complex it’s about belief “ God sent his son who died for your sins and rose from the dead on your behalf ? It’s not hard to grasp the concept it’s a matter of belief or disbelief because other things have our heart

Exactly, there is the personal application of the work of Christ Jesus and YES sinners are able to believe the Gospel when given correctly.

Calvinist position is the Gospel message is insufficient

But then it seems they do not know the Gospel so of course what they teach as the Gospel is insufficient.

So while simple it is a personal message for each person which requires belief and the fall of mankind did not remove his ability to respond to truth, that is just fool hardy.

 

[Magenta]

Those who are then wooed by God, via the Holy Spirit, to come to Christ, and those who willfully
submit to such wooings, are then elected or chosen IN CHRIST. Do you see the difference?

Are you suggesting that some are not wooed?

 

[Cameron143]

If I am understanding you correctly, then I disagree with you. Yes, God elects, but not individuals. Instead, God has elected or chosen Christ as his means of salvation. Those who are then wooed by God, via the Holy Spirit, to come to Christ, and those who willfully submit to such wooings, are then elected or chosen IN CHRIST. Do you see the difference?

I understand your position. Jesus was elected of God to both proclaim and provide salvation, but this isn't the extent of election. God also chose or elected some in Him. Otherwise, you have Jesus being chosen in Himself. It is also stated that this election occurred before creation.
In Christ and in Adam are significant terms. All humanity is in Adam. Not all humanity is in Christ. But those in Christ are spoken of before the creation of Adam.

 

[Magenta]

Calvinist position is the Gospel message is insufficient

But then it seems they do not know the Gospel so of course what they teach as the Gospel is insufficient.

You leave out that the gospel message is foolishness to those who are perishing.

How many times did you hear the gospel message before your free will
was able to over ride your natural state of being incapable of submitting?

And how exactly did your will get free when it was a slave to sin and captive to the will of the devil?

You leave those parts out too.

Oh I know, I've been told I put too much weight on Scripture by actually believing what it actually says.

 

[GWH]

The reason I ask is because if you believe that eternal life was in view, then you must believe that salvation for the Jews was possible through the keeping of the law, and not through faith. Is this so?

I'm glad you made the distinction between choices and freewill. As I understand freewill, it is the ability to make EVERY available choice, free of any constraints. Is this a satisfactory definition for you?

Re Jews: They were saved through faith, like Abraham, although Moses did not emphasize this enough, along with God's love for non-Jews including the Canaanites.

Re definition: AVAILABLE should be in caps, too, and "ability" means there are no constraints that make faith and thus moral accountability impossible, because MFW is the key component of being made in God's image.

No soul has a good “heart” that merits heaven without accepting Christ’s atonement, but the NT does not consider whether a person might have a psychological excuse (such as being abused as a child by an unloving “Christian” father)--the opposite of my childhood, for example, so I would have no excuse for apostasy other than that my Sunday School did not prepare me for dealing with the devil's darts, so I had to figure out Apologetics largely on my own (cf. EPH 6:10-17).

Pondering my Plan A- upbringing compared with those who have more interesting testimonies (yours?) motivated me to search the Scriptures for how God judges folks with various volitional constraints, and I found the Parable of the Talents provides the answer.

 

[Magenta]

I understand your position. Jesus was elected of God to both proclaim and provide salvation, but this isn't the extent of election. God also chose or elected some in Him. Otherwise, you have Jesus being chosen in Himself. It is also stated that this election occurred before creation.
In Christ and in Adam are significant terms. All humanity is in Adam. Not all humanity is in Christ. But those in Christ are spoken of before the creation of Adam.

I wonder what they do with Jacob and Esau.

 

[Rufus]

"Were it true that God wants it offered to everyone, then one's acceptance of the offer would make salvation of their work and they
their own savior, not Christ."

And that, dear friends, is Calvinite nuttery on display.
Oh....and its utterly unbiblical too.

Since when is a bride accepting the offer of marriage provided by the groom a "work"?
Does ANY SANE PERSON in the universe think that accepting an offer of marriage is a "work"?

No. Only the truly insane believe this.
Which of course is another reason why I am not a Calvinite.

You see, choosing is not a "work". Choosing is an aspect of simply BEING ALIVE. As God defines life.

Which no one is until God spiritually raises his people up from the dead. You should listen to yourself.

 

[GWH]

You leave out that the gospel message is foolishness to those who are perishing.

How many times did you hear the gospel message before your free will
was able to over ride your natural state of being incapable of submitting?

And how exactly did your will get free when it was a slave to sin and captive to the will of the devil?

You leave those parts out too.

Re "And how exactly did your will get free when it was a slave to sin and captive to the will of the devil?": The same way yours did, hopefully.

 

[HeIsHere]

If I am understanding you correctly, then I disagree with you. Yes, God elects, but not individuals. Instead, God has elected or chosen Christ as his means of salvation. Those who are then wooed by God, via the Holy Spirit, to come to Christ, and those who willfully submit to such wooings, are then elected or chosen IN CHRIST. Do you see the difference?

For the Calvinist it is an internal work first......

even though scripture teaches that external truths, internal conscience, the power inherent in God's word and work of the Holy Spirit externally, the Gospel message itself are sufficient to come to personal belief.

.....to the Calvinist man is unable to respond positively because all those listed above are insufficient since man is an immobilized corpse with a heart of stone thinking of evil, morning noon and night!

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Are you suggesting that some are not wooed?

No, and that is why I mentioned those who willfully submit to such wooings. In other words, there will also be those who willfully do not submit to such wooings. I believe that God is not willing that any should perish, and, therefore, he strives with everybody via the Holy Spirit in order to hopefully woo them to Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Re "And how exactly did your will get free when it was a slave to sin and captive to the will of the devil?": The same way yours did, hopefully.

Well, that is what she disagrees with, so you fail to understand once again.

 

[cv5]

If I am understanding you correctly, then I disagree with you. Yes, God elects, but not individuals. Instead, God has elected or chosen Christ as his means of salvation. Those who are then wooed by God, via the Holy Spirit, to come to Christ, and those who willfully submit to such wooings, are then elected or chosen IN CHRIST. Do you see the difference?

This is absolutely POSITIVELY the way that God is actually working to save men!

BTW, I was going to post something similar (eventually) and use the term "WOOING" because it is a beautiful fit.
Looks like we are on the same wavelength and are resonating LOL.

And wonderful insights thank you.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

For the Calvinist it is an internal work first......

even though scripture teaches that external truths, internal conscience, the power inherent in God's word and work of the Holy Spirit externally, the Gospel message itself are sufficient to come to personal belief.

.....to the Calvinist man is unable to respond positively because all those listed above are insufficient since man is an immobilized corpse with a heart of stone thinking of evil, morning noon and night!

Believe me, I know exactly how Calvinists think because I have gone head to head with many of them over the years. In other words, as much as I genuinely appreciate your input, you are basically preaching to the choir.

 

[Magenta]

No, and that is why I mentioned those who willfully submit to such wooings. In other words, there will also be those who willfully do not submit to such wooings. I believe that God is not willing that any should perish, and, therefore, he strives with everybody via the Holy Spirit in order to hopefully woo them to Christ.

You call it wooing, I call it God drawing us with loving kindness. What about those who believe it is worthy of mocking and scoffing to believe that people have personal experience with God? That God actually keeps His promise to reveal Himself to those who diligently seek Him garners derision from some here. They claim personal revelation is not necessary. Even unfair of God. How do we know God if not personally?

 

[cv5]

.....to the Calvinist man is unable to respond positively because all those listed above are insufficient since man is an immobilized corpse with a heart of stone thinking of evil, morning noon and night!

The Calvinites say that man is born EVIL. And God Himself created him that way.
Yes, the Calvintes say that Holy God CREATES THINGS EVIL. On purpose.
And then they try to rationalize/apologize for it.

And that is EXACTLY what Satan says about his condition!

 

[Rufus]

Irresistible grace (the one which I just described) does not guarantee one will believe.
Such grace only guarantees an individual the freedom to believe, if he wishes to.
While the person is being drawn, God will impose the grace needed.
Calvinists insist God's drawing will guarantee belief.
It only guarantees the freedom to believe. That is why all who reject are to be without excuse.

Irresistible grace only guarantees the freedom to believe after one had been successfully drawn by God to the point of passing God's requirement. Then God will materialize the invisible one by means of presenting Jesus Christ to them.

Men can and do fall away from God's drawing them before they will be presented Jesus.
But, they could not resist being drawn while the drawing process was taking place in their lives as God determined.

As Romans 1:18-21, reveals... God made those who reject Him to first have known He is real.

They were brought to a state of knowing God is real.
Knowing while still in their unregenerate state!
That is when they suppressed the truth with lies that they preferred to think with.
God gives up on drawing that kind of unbeliever at that stage of drawing a man.

Romans 1:18-21


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what
has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks
to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.


............

Do word salads much? What does that even mean...that grace "guarantees freedom to believe"? So God gives the gift of faith to believers after they believe? Also, Jesus said all that the Father gives to him WILL COME to Him! He didn't say that God makes it merely possible for them to come -- but that they will [in fact] come!