Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
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Yes, I agree that there is simplicity in Christ, but that is not what we were even talking about.
The complexities involved in salvation dialogues is quite something else.
Other things have our hearts, huh?
Gosh you sound like you say that as if it is not at the very core of what I have been talking about all along.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
If I am understanding you correctly, then I disagree with you. Yes, God elects, but not individuals. Instead, God has elected or chosen Christ as his means of salvation. Those who are then wooed by God, via the Holy Spirit, to come to Christ, and those who willfully submit to such wooings, are then elected or chosen IN CHRIST. Do you see the difference?
Exactly, there is the personal application of the work of Christ Jesus and YES sinners are able to believe the Gospel when given correctly.
Calvinist position is the Gospel message is insufficient
But then it seems they do not know the Gospel so of course what they teach as the Gospel is insufficient.
So while simple it is a personal message for each person which requires belief and the fall of mankind did not remove his ability to respond to truth, that is just fool hardy.
I understand your position. Jesus was elected of God to both proclaim and provide salvation, but this isn't the extent of election. God also chose or elected some in Him. Otherwise, you have Jesus being chosen in Himself. It is also stated that this election occurred before creation.
In Christ and in Adam are significant terms. All humanity is in Adam. Not all humanity is in Christ. But those in Christ are spoken of before the creation of Adam.
You leave out that the gospel message is foolishness to those who are perishing.
How many times did you hear the gospel message before your free will
was able to over ride your natural state of being incapable of submitting?
And how exactly did your will get free when it was a slave to sin and captive to the will of the devil?
You leave those parts out too.
Oh I know, I've been told I put too much weight on Scripture by actually believing what it actually says.
Re Jews: They were saved through faith, like Abraham, although Moses did not emphasize this enough, along with God's love for non-Jews including the Canaanites.
Re definition: AVAILABLE should be in caps, too, and "ability" means there are no constraints that make faith and thus moral accountability impossible, because MFW is the key component of being made in God's image.
No soul has a good “heart” that merits heaven without accepting Christ’s atonement, but the NT does not consider whether a person might have a psychological excuse (such as being abused as a child by an unloving “Christian” father)--the opposite of my childhood, for example, so I would have no excuse for apostasy other than that my Sunday School did not prepare me for dealing with the devil's darts, so I had to figure out Apologetics largely on my own (cf. EPH 6:10-17).
Pondering my Plan A- upbringing compared with those who have more interesting testimonies (yours?) motivated me to search the Scriptures for how God judges folks with various volitional constraints, and I found the Parable of the Talents provides the answer.
Re "And how exactly did your will get free when it was a slave to sin and captive to the will of the devil?": The same way yours did, hopefully.
For the Calvinist it is an internal work first......
even though scripture teaches that external truths, internal conscience, the power inherent in God's word and work of the Holy Spirit externally, the Gospel message itself are sufficient to come to personal belief.
.....to the Calvinist man is unable to respond positively because all those listed above are insufficient since man is an immobilized corpse with a heart of stone thinking of evil, morning noon and night!
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
No, and that is why I mentioned those who willfully submit to such wooings. In other words, there will also be those who willfully do not submit to such wooings. I believe that God is not willing that any should perish, and, therefore, he strives with everybody via the Holy Spirit in order to hopefully woo them to Christ.
This is absolutely POSITIVELY the way that God is actually working to save men!
BTW, I was going to post something similar (eventually) and use the term "WOOING" because it is a beautiful fit.
Looks like we are on the same wavelength and are resonating LOL.
And wonderful insights thank you.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
Believe me, I know exactly how Calvinists think because I have gone head to head with many of them over the years. In other words, as much as I genuinely appreciate your input, you are basically preaching to the choir.
You call it wooing, I call it God drawing us with loving kindness. What about those who believe it is worthy of mocking and scoffing to believe that people have personal experience with God? That God actually keeps His promise to reveal Himself to those who diligently seek Him garners derision from some here. They claim personal revelation is not necessary. Even unfair of God. How do we know God if not personally?
The Calvinites say that man is born EVIL. And God Himself created him that way.
Yes, the Calvintes say that Holy God CREATES THINGS EVIL. On purpose.
And then they try to rationalize/apologize for it.
And that is EXACTLY what Satan says about his condition!
Do word salads much?
What does that even mean...that grace "guarantees freedom to believe"? So God gives the gift of faith to believers after they believe? Also, Jesus said all that the Father gives to him WILL COME to Him! He didn't say that God makes it merely possible for them to come -- but that they will [in fact] come!