So as a result of seeing nature, men see their sinful estate, recognize their sin is offensive before God, recognize their need for a Savior, and call upon the name of the Lord? Or...they recognize the existence of God?
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
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What?
How is ANYTHING "apart from Christ"? This is impossible.
In fact Christ Jesus in in the midst of everything, all of the (cough cough) "time", and is the ultimate Observer.
Which is why anything exists to begin with.
Deuteronomy 21
18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.
Gobbeldegoop's version: God-loving parents is the beginning of wisdom.
I believe since it was God who made Himself known to them, not that they somehow were looking for Him, but He made Himself known to them that He is working on their minds and hearts drawing them to Him after they see His manifestation.
You are conflating the evidence from nature as to the existence of God, and the necessary intimate interaction with God necessary for the salvation of one's soul. There is a great difference in knowing that God exists and knowing Him personally.
And not one calvie can produce a verse that says," Mankind cannot believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation."
Paul, " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved....."
Calvies," You can't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."
And you act like God is limited to how He is able to draw people to Him, even to the point of them yielding to Him.
What a ridiculous misrepresentation.
But not to worry. We have seen it before.
You are hardly original.
God made it abundantly clear that He draws ALL men to Himself.
And God made it abundantly clear that WHOSEVER believes in the Lord Jesus shall be saved.
Equal privilege , equal opportunity for ALL.
The calvies deter unbelievers from salvation.
The armies deter believers from advancing in their ETERNAL salvation.
Knowing God exists through the work of His hands (creation) is a far cry from understanding the gospel.
The natural man knows God exists through creation, which proclaims His glory.
Still, the natural man cannot comprehend the spiritual things of God.
He can not even receive them.
I wonder what it is about those Biblical truths that get people so riled up.
Things like the natural man being hostile in his mind toward God.
Free willers absolutely hate that Bible truth.
Being taken captive to the will of the devil, being a lover of darkness and a slave of sin, supressing the truth in unrighteousness, unable to obey... yeah, the list goes on and on and can get quite long but free willers contradict all of them.
You still cannot produce ONE verse that says," Mankind cannot believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation."
I don't keep up with what Calvinists do, but I do know that to be saved one must be born from above. So until God spiritually births a person they won't know Him.
God manifesting Himself to draw men by His creation could lead someone to church and preaching where they hear the Gospel.
But I see how connecting the dots would be improbable considering how many limit God but yet scream Sovereignty.
I'm not acting. Until God not only draws a person, but also converts and inhabits an individual, they aren't saved.
I can see how you connect the dots but what you do not see and fail to connect is that the natural man
listening to the gospel hears foolishness. That is a Bible truth and yet you wish to ignore it. Why?
“And he ( Jesus ) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-
He suffered and died for our sins and then sent out witnesses to everyone that’s how he draws all men to himself
By the truth of the gospel
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
John 12:32-33
Well, I have never made such a claim, and you repeatedly pretending I have simply proves what I have
said all along about you ~ You misrepresent what others believe. You have been doing that since you
entered these convos late last year claiming that people were not misrepresenting what others believe,
and you continue doing it because you refuse correction. You simply are not interested in the truth, and
that is sad. You are in love with your lies.