Understanding God’s election

[cv5]

Wow man, you're quite a venomous fellow huh? EVERYTHING you attack with applies just as much to you, if not more. You remind me of a democrat in the way you accuse others of everything you're doing in the same moment. To be honest I guess I'm doing the same thing in a way, by calling you out for it, but I just don't see this disagreement in theological perspective to be equal in level to the way you're speaking to them about it. I could be wrong, but I feel a straight up hatred for anything Calvin from you, not only anything Calvin, but anything you feel is "Calvinistic". It's like you believe you can label anything you want this way and that's the end of the conversation. To be honest I think you fight the imagined ghost of Calvin created in your mind more often than the actual people in the thread you're replying to.

I just don't understand why the need to come off so rudely dismissive is necessary. I never see you having an honest and in good faith conversation about these issues. Just a venomous (looking down your nose type) argument with absolutely NO substance, just machine gun proof text that can easily support both views. I don't know man I get straight shooting and not compromising our beliefs, both are admirable traits, but this just seems a bit beyond that, and does so pretty consistently from my point of view. Which I imagine means very little to you.

It hurts to be right. Yes it does.

And no, negotiating and meeting in the middle is not advisable as regards devastating heresies.

 

[homwardbound]

Nowhere in scripture is anyone who is lost chosen to be saved or chosen to be not saved from their sins.

Just chosen by God, that's all folks
Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psalm 100:4
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

God did for us, it is done for us to either believe it or not, thanks

Then the new begins in love to all over the few people only choose according to their work of
God loves us all y'all
Believe God, receive from God and be new in love true love (1 Cor 13:4-7) to all as called, listening with two ears over one mouth to God's lead daily.
Noting: what Jesus did daily before starting that day. He went out by himself to pray to Father for the instructions for that day. One day, the disciples went out after him to find him. were excited about yesterdays events. Wanted to go back there to continue in. What did Jesus say?
"Paraphrased" you go wherever you want, I have my instructions for the day. I am going over there.
Are we getting it y'all. God directs us each and lets us choose to do as God has said to do or not, yet still loves us anyway, if we refuse. Amazing grace is what has changed my attitude to just love all as Son does and did on that cross first for us all

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in

 

[John146]

Yes, those who believe in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ are saved and attain to life ever after. I see no evidence of this that can be applied to Adam and Eve. I looked up the question also, and the number of sites and videos spinning takes and tales fashioned of their fantastical leaps abounded. Yet it is absent from Scripture. They were like popes going on and on and on about Mary. I prefer to stick with what is actually said. We know what happens otherwise.

Agreed, I have not found such a thing. But this...Adam covered his transgressions with fig leaves and hiding from God.

Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I've given the passage that supports,"defends" what I said yet you appear to constantly reject it.

I am confused. You said no one can elect I said we do then you said not all.
Which is it. Can you please answer

1Corinthians 2:14

If we cannot understand the things of God in our natural minded state because they are spiritually discerned how do we understand the Gospel in our naturally minded state and choose to accept Christ?

So is god powerless to help us understand so we have no excuse and he is glorified?

We are told all through the New Testament we do not choose to save ourselves.

We can not save ourselves. It would not matter if we chose to try to save ourselves or not

I am not talking about saving myself. I am talking about choosing to have god save me

Huge difference

Romans 8
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

And this includes, Ephesians 2:8-9

Yes they go together
we have been saved by grace THROUGH FAITH

And god chose to save us based on his knowledge of this fact

 

[PaulThomson]

First, you don't know what God has planned. Second, the desire to pray may well have been placed in your heart by God.

Necessary and inevitable are not the same thing. God decreeing X, does not mean X was necessary. If an exhaustive divine decree were a thing, God could have converted person Y with or without Z's prayers.

 

[cv5]

Wow man, you're quite a venomous fellow huh? EVERYTHING you attack with applies just as much to you, if not more. You remind me of a democrat in the way you accuse others of everything you're doing in the same moment. To be honest I guess I'm doing the same thing in a way, by calling you out for it, but I just don't see this disagreement in theological perspective to be equal in level to the way you're speaking to them about it. I could be wrong, but I feel a straight up hatred for anything Calvin from you, not only anything Calvin, but anything you feel is "Calvinistic". It's like you believe you can label anything you want this way and that's the end of the conversation. To be honest I think you fight the imagined ghost of Calvin created in your mind more often than the actual people in the thread you're replying to.

I just don't understand why the need to come off so rudely dismissive is necessary. I never see you having an honest and in good faith conversation about these issues. Just a venomous (looking down your nose type) argument with absolutely NO substance, just machine gun proof text that can easily support both views. I don't know man I get straight shooting and not compromising our beliefs, both are admirable traits, but this just seems a bit beyond that, and does so pretty consistently from my point of view. Which I imagine means very little to you.

You know, come to think of it, the Calvinistas and Wiley E. Coyote have much in common:
Gluttons for punishment and a ceaseless string of epic and painful failures. And they never quit with their vain and foolish pursuits.

However, there is one advantage that Wiley E. Coyote has that the Calvinistas DO NOT have.
Reading comprehension skills. Even Wiley E. Coyote can easily comprehend the Acme instruction manual.

The Calvinistas? Not so much.

Beep beep!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm up to date.

Please don't try to defend error as correct.

You stated earlier there was no law till after the flood. You didn't state,written law.

If it's not written it doesn't exist?

You were wrong.

lol show me a law before mosaic where god said cursed you will be if you do not obey
show me in the where god or anyone else said that a person needs saved because they did not obey some other law

You cant

So your study is not up to date. You assume Much

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's obvious to me that my whole post went over your head. Luckily, my posts are for everyone. I suggest for your sake that you get off your debate mode and turn to contemplate mode and pray for enlightenment.

In other words
you can’t counter what I said so turn it back to me

Turn your pride down dude if I misunderstood you explain. Knock off your smarter than me mode

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It matters that people claim something that is nowhere written as if it were.


So your logic does not hold. Get it? We are not told where Adam is now.


We are talking about what happened when A and E were fashioned skins to cover them.

I am more concerned about what Scripture says. Where is this continuing relationship with Adam portrayed?

ok. I will atop
I am sorry you think God did all those things for Adam after the fall. Yet you think Adam may be lost. This makes no sense but so be it

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes and can you state what unbelievers are condemned to?

Unbelievers are condemned to eternal death. Unless they repent in this lifetime

 

[Magenta]

ok. I will atop
I am sorry you think God did all those things for Adam after the fall. Yet you think Adam may be lost. This makes no sense but so be it

Your logic still does not hold... because God has done much for EVERYone yet not everyone will be saved.

So what I say makes perfect sense, but simply does not align with your thinking which is illogical.

The point is that Scripture does not say one way or another. Think what you want.

Though I did make reference to Hebrews 11 earlier in this general convo. The very long list of saints named starts with Abel.

Off to work... have a great day!

 

[Cameron143]

I am confused. You said no one can elect I said we do then you said not all.
Which is it. Can you please answer

So is god powerless to help us understand so we have no excuse and he is glorified?


We can not save ourselves. It would not matter if we chose to try to save ourselves or not

I am not talking about saving myself. I am talking about choosing to have god save me

Huge difference

Yes they go together
we have been saved by grace THROUGH FAITH

And god chose to save us based on his knowledge of this fact

In Matthew 16, Jesus asks His disciples who He was. Peter answers that He is the Christ; the Messiah. To this Jesus pronounces that Peter is blessed because he didn't come to this belief through his own device, but that God Himself revealed this. Jesus goes on to say that it will be this same revelation of the Father that He will employ to grow His church.
What relationship do you make, if any, to faith...the vehicle by which Paul says one enters the church...in Ephesians 2?

 

[Cameron143]

Necessary and inevitable are not the same thing. God decreeing X, does not mean X was necessary. If an exhaustive divine decree were a thing, God could have converted person Y with or without Z's prayers.

I never said otherwise. But the master doesn't tell his servants his plans, but he does tell his his children.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your logic still does not hold... because God has done much for EVERYone yet not everyone will be saved.

It holds fine

he who does not believe is condemned already.

Unless it is your contention that Adam did nto repent and believe. I see no evidence of this to be the case.

So what I say makes perfect sense, but simply does not align with your thinking which is illogical.

Actually, it may make sense to you. But it makes no sense when I look at adam, what he did what God did and the relationship they had.

The point is that Scripture does not say one way or another. Think what you want.

It does not have to.

Though I did make reference to Hebrews 11 earlier in this general convo. The very long list of saints named starts with Abel.

Off to work... have a great day!

Considering what happened to abel, I can see why he is the first.

it does not mean adam is not saved.

You have a great day too sis

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

In Matthew 16, Jesus asks His disciples who He was. Peter answers that He is the Christ; the Messiah. To this Jesus pronounces that Peter is blessed because he didn't come to this belief through his own device, but that God Himself revealed this. Jesus goes on to say that it will be this same revelation of the Father that He will employ to grow His church.

yes. But this does not mean God made Pet4er born again so he could understand this..

What relationship do you make, if any, to faith...the vehicle by which Paul says one enters the church...in Ephesians 2?

I think it goes all the way back to chapter 1

eph 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

so we see here a view.

1. we are blessed with everything
2. We were chosen to be conformed to his image
3. We are redeemed and accepted
4. The wisdon God gave us and prudence (understanding) was more than enough, it was abounded (in great abundance)
5. That those who trust in christ have been predestined according to his purpose and grace.
6. The process.
We hear the word. which is in abundance and gives us wison. He then trust that word. (the gospel. not just any old doctrine) and having believed in this word. we were then sealed by the spirit.

continuing in chapter 2

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

prety much the same concept

1. We are made alive, although once we were dead,
2. This making alive is based on Gods grace.
3. That it is this grace which we have been saved (made alive) through faith. which again in chapter 1. comes after hearing, and before the HS is given
4. And this is not by our deeds (here God seperates faith as a deed. and he also makes it known it is not faith that saves us, it is Grace, but it is only through faith it is recieved.. ie we must make a decision.

 

[PaulThomson]

I never said otherwise. But the master doesn't tell his servants his plans, but he does tell his his children.

Abraham told his servant His plan to get a wife for Isaac from beyond Canaan.

 

[Magenta]

It holds fine

he who does not believe is condemned already.

Unless it is your contention that Adam did nto repent and believe. I see no evidence of this to be the case.

Actually, it may make sense to you. But it makes no sense when I look at adam, what he did what God did and the relationship they had.

It does not have to.

Considering what happened to abel, I can see why he is the first.

it does not mean adam is not saved.

You have a great day too sis

There is 0 evidence in Scripture that Adam repented. And considering how little is said of Adam's relationship with God following their expulsion from the garden, I'm not sure what you're talking about or what you are basing your conclusions on. We are not told whether he repented or whether he is saved or whether he's in heaven... so you can believe all those things if you want but I'm saying it is not in Scripture.

 

[Cameron143]

yes. But this does not mean God made Pet4er born again so he could understand this..


I think it goes all the way back to chapter 1

eph 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

so we see here a view.

1. we are blessed with everything
2. We were chosen to be conformed to his image
3. We are redeemed and accepted
4. The wisdon God gave us and prudence (understanding) was more than enough, it was abounded (in great abundance)
5. That those who trust in christ have been predestined according to his purpose and grace.
6. The process.
We hear the word. which is in abundance and gives us wison. He then trust that word. (the gospel. not just any old doctrine) and having believed in this word. we were then sealed by the spirit.

continuing in chapter 2

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

prety much the same concept

1. We are made alive, although once we were dead,
2. This making alive is based on Gods grace.
3. That it is this grace which we have been saved (made alive) through faith. which again in chapter 1. comes after hearing, and before the HS is given
4. And this is not by our deeds (here God seperates faith as a deed. and he also makes it known it is not faith that saves us, it is Grace, but it is only through faith it is recieved.. ie we must make a decision.

I quite imagine that the revelation of Christ as Redeemer is part of what is revealed. I also imagine that the revelation of sin, the penalty for sin, and the fear of God is conveyed. But my point was that the church isn't built by a bunch of individuals exercising faith disconnected to the activity of God. The opposite is true. God is the One initiating the salvation through revelation. This is so because faith of necessity must have an object, and the object of saving faith is Christ. So it makes sense that in saving individuals, God would reveal Christ to that individual as Savior.
This is how the grace of God in revelation employs the vehicle of faith to produce salvation. And this is how we become the triumphs of His grace.

 

[Cameron143]

Abraham told his servant His plan to get a wife for Isaac from beyond Canaan.

And friends. God called him a servant. Abraham evidently considered him a friend.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

There is 0 evidence in Scripture that Adam repented. And considering how little is said of Adam's relationship with God following their expulsion from the garden, I'm not sure what you're talking about or what you are basing your conclusions on. We are not told whether he repented or whether he is saved or whether he's in heaven... so you can believe all those things if you want but I'm saying it is not in Scripture.

again I disagree.

we know by their fruits.

Sis, I am not going to continue this, if you do not think he did. then don;t. I think he did and wqe have plenty of evidence.

but am willing to agree to disagree. not worth fighting over.