Understanding God’s election

[Everlasting-Grace]

You don't understand my answers so I'll keep it simple for you per the Bible scriptures you prefer to ignore that state the same thing in contextual detail.

Yes.

But they do not, and your wrong.

It doesn't appear so. See above and below.

Still being devisive I see and not explaining what the bible actually says..

Not true.
Proverbs 16:9.

sorry bud. I already explained this verse. it does not say God refuses to allow everyone to believe him,l and give them the opportunity.

Not true. Thinking to not take God's message in context because scripture harmonizes in the full message is error on your part.

Oh i agree, it harmonizes.. Thats another reason calvinism is in error. The calvinist message and the bible does nto harmonize.. Granted. you can take parts of the word and harmonize. but when you take the whole. it falls apart.

You can make any belief system believe to be biblical by pulling a few verses out of the word..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'll leave you to call scripture false. I can't change that mindset.

But you are the one doing this.

Notice what scripture sdays

eph 1: 13 - 14 -
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Notice the series of events.

1. They heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation.
2. They trusted or believed (had faith vs having mere belief) in those words
3. They were THEN sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

and my friend. That last comment. I would hold back the rhetoric. Your pride is showing here. and it is not welcome. it destroys your message. and stops all forms of conversation.

Plus, it is a strawman, Because the same could be said of you.

Your question was,is vague. What are you asking specifically about?

You said

I think the New Testament is repeat with proof God chooses whom he will save.

Besides Jesus preaching the same thing in his earthly ministry as the father made flesh,there is the reason why we can't elect to understand and therefore believe the Gospel. 1 Corinthians 2.:14

Ie, We can not chose to understand and believe

I stated we do it all the time

you then came back and said not everyone

You did not even defend what your originally said, then flip flopped and changed what you said to not everyone. then still falsely accuse me.

Can you show me where I erred in what you said in your first post about no one being able to chose to believe?

God is Sovereign. And Omniscient. All things are according to his will and plan.

Yes he is, He elected or chose to do his will in that everyone who sees and believes will have eternal life. and be resurrected on the last day. and non would be lost (john 6)

His sovereignty is intact. His omniscience is perfect. and still everyone has free will to chose to say yes Lord. apply your gift to me. or no lord I reject your gift.

Would you rephrase?

You said

This is why Jesus answered his Disciples who asked why he taught the Gospel in parables.
To you it was given to understand but to them it was not given.

My response.

To you it was fogiven.. these men were already part of Gods family,. already saved by faith

but to them it is hidden - These people already rejected christ, and were already lost. so he hid things from them.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Where are we told that Adam repented? Either we were told that he repented or we were not told.

Does it really matter? Did Adam repent or did he not. is he in hades now or in paradise?

Jesus shed His blood for the whole world. Has the whole world repented?

No. and the whole world will not be saved, Is adam going to hell or heaven?

Seems to me not everyone will be saved unless the universalists are right.

I am not worried at this point about the world. we are talking about adam.

Do you think Jesus would have done what he did and continued a relationship with adam if adam had not repented?

I do not

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Not so.

Genesis 26:5

There was not written law until Moses.

Please try to keep up.

there was no law except for Adam when God said do not eat or you will die..

the next law that said prety much this same thing was given on Mt Sinia

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And GN 2:16-17, from the beginning God has revealed His will/law/word to man. BTW, PS 119 provides these and numerous other synonyms in each verse.

But Paul said God passed over the sins, because there was no law that said if you do not do this. or if you do this, you are cursed.

A government can not charge you with a crime unless the crime is written down, and a law is made.

they can warn you. They can make up a law after you do it.l But they can not charge you.

Think of God as that judge, Only God is the perfect judge..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

One thing I hate about this chatroom is the small time to edit your post.. Most chatrooms you can edit at any time.

Sometimes we do not find errors until it is too late.

@MeowFlower I will try to correct error in formatting above so you can understand

Your question was,is vague. What are you asking specifically about?

You said

MeowFlower said:

I think the New Testament is repeat with proof God chooses whom he will save.

Besides Jesus preaching the same thing in his earthly ministry as the father made flesh,there is the reason why we can't elect to understand and therefore believe the Gospel. 1 Corinthians 2.:14

Ie, We can not chose to understand and believe

I stated we do it all the time

you then came back and said not everyone

You did not even defend what your originally said, then flip flopped and changed what you said to not everyone. then still falsely accuse me.

Can you show me where I erred in what you said in your first post about no one being able to chose to believe?


Then you said

God is Sovereign. And Omniscient. All things are according to his will and plan.

Yes he is, He elected or chose to do his will in that everyone who sees and believes will have eternal life. and be resurrected on the last day. and non would be lost (john 6)

His sovereignty is intact. His omniscience is perfect. and still everyone has free will to chose to say yes Lord. apply your gift to me. or no lord I reject your gift.


finally you said

Would you rephrase?

You said

This is why Jesus answered his Disciples who asked why he taught the Gospel in parables.
To you it was given to understand but to them it was not given.

My response.

To you it was forgiven.. these men were already part of Gods family,. already saved by faith

but to them it is hidden - These people already rejected christ, and were already lost. so he hid things from them.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Historically I'm reminded of the debates between Augustine and Pelagius, or later between Calvin and Arminius. These discussions on predestination and free will have shaped Christian thought for centuries. The position outlined here seems to align closely with Calvinist doctrine, particularly the concepts of total depravity and unconditional election.

Psychologically I'm fascinated by how such beliefs might impact an individual's sense of agency and responsibility. On one hand, the idea of being "chosen" could provide immense comfort and security. On the other, it might lead to questions about the nature of love and relationship if choice is removed from the equation.

The impact is a weak, passive and powerless church that defaults on its responsibility to live a righteous, godly life because in the calvignostic mind believers are totally incapable of doing good due to evil flesh, so God has to do everything through them. Consequently, nothing of eternal value gets accomplished. Instead the walk becomes a pathetic wallowing around in a pigsty of total inability while singing praises to God for doing his righteous works through them, sock puppets who have no agency.

God has given us the ability through the holy spirit to overcome sin and walk righteously. But this is anathema to the calvignostic mind poisoned by the insidious and pernicious gnostic belief that all matter is evil, which became transformed into the doctrines of man's total depravity and total inability through the theology of Calvin, who derived his theology from Augustine, a former Manichaen gnostic.

 

[cv5]

Please quote the scripture where it is.

Famous last words....

 

[cv5]

The impact is a weak, passive and powerless church that defaults on its responsibility to live a righteous, godly life because in the calvignostic mind believers are totally incapable of doing good due to evil flesh, so God has to do everything through them. Consequently, nothing of eternal value gets accomplished. Instead the walk becomes a pathetic wallowing around in a pigsty of total inability while singing praises to God for doing his righteous works through them, sock puppets who have no agency.

God has given us the ability through the holy spirit to overcome sin and walk righteously. But this is anathema to the calvignostic mind poisoned by the insidious and pernicious gnostic belief that all matter is evil, which became transformed into the doctrines of man's total depravity and total inability through the theology of Calvin and Luther, who both derived their theology from Augustine, a former Manichaen gnostic.

I think that you are on to something......

 

[GWH]

But Paul said God passed over the sins, because there was no law that said if you do not do this. or if you do this, you are cursed.

A government can not charge you with a crime unless the crime is written down, and a law is made.

they can warn you. They can make up a law after you do it.l But they can not charge you.

Think of God as that judge, Only God is the perfect judge..

Exactly, which is why I posit that the Parable of the Talents teaches that God judges souls justly on the basis of the revelation they had the opportunity to learn, which for those without the OT & NT is limited to C&C (creation and conscience) per RM 1:20 & 2:14-16.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Exactly, which is why I posit that the Parable of the Talents teaches that God judges souls justly on the basis of the revelation they had the opportunity to learn, which for those without the OT & NT is limited to C&C (creation and conscience) per RM 1:20 & 2:14-16.

Yes.
but in the end. Those who do not believe are condemned

The sin issue was taken care of on the cross.

 

[HeIsHere]

The impact is a weak, passive and powerless church that defaults on its responsibility to live a righteous, godly life because in the calvignostic mind believers are totally incapable of doing good due to evil flesh, so God has to do everything through them. Consequently, nothing of eternal value gets accomplished. Instead the walk becomes a pathetic wallowing around in a pigsty of total inability while singing praises to God for doing his righteous works through them, sock puppets who have no agency.

God has given us the ability through the holy spirit to overcome sin and walk righteously. But this is anathema to the calvignostic mind poisoned by the insidious and pernicious gnostic belief that all matter is evil, which became transformed into the doctrines of man's total depravity and total inability through the theology of Calvin, who derived his theology from Augustine, a former Manichaen gnostic.

Powerful!
Amen

 

[HeIsHere]

Two things,

"chosen" could provide immense comfort and security.

Yes but it tends to manifest outwardly to the world, by many of them, as very prideful.

more synergistic view of divine and human action in salvation.

Calvinists will always always default to the "sovereignty" of God (the prime most important character of God as the puppet master) so this is heresy to them.

I myself do think synergy is probably not a good view, but that there is a condition to the gift of salvation.... and that is belief/trust in/faith on a personal level in the completed work of Christ Jesus on our behalf.

It is really not that complicated, only Calvinists feel compelled to put up barriers.

 

[MeowFlower]

One thing I hate about this chatroom is the small time to edit your post.. Most chatrooms you can edit at any time.

Sometimes we do not find errors until it is too late.

@MeowFlower I will try to correct error in formatting above so you can understand



You said




Ie, We can not chose to understand and believe

I stated we do it all the time

you then came back and said not everyone

You did not even defend what your originally said, then flip flopped and changed what you said to not everyone. then still falsely accuse me.

Can you show me where I erred in what you said in your first post about no one being able to chose to believe?


Then you said


Yes he is, He elected or chose to do his will in that everyone who sees and believes will have eternal life. and be resurrected on the last day. and non would be lost (john 6)

His sovereignty is intact. His omniscience is perfect. and still everyone has free will to chose to say yes Lord. apply your gift to me. or no lord I reject your gift.


finally you said



You said

This is why Jesus answered his Disciples who asked why he taught the Gospel in parables.
To you it was given to understand but to them it was not given.

My response.

To you it was forgiven.. these men were already part of Gods family,. already saved by faith

but to them it is hidden - These people already rejected christ, and were already lost. so he hid things from them.

I've given the passage that supports,"defends" what I said yet you appear to constantly reject it.

1Corinthians 2:14

If we cannot understand the things of God in our natural minded state because they are spiritually discerned how do we understand the Gospel in our naturally minded state and choose to accept Christ?

We are told all through the New Testament we do not choose to save ourselves.

Romans 8
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

And this includes, Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[MeowFlower]

There was not written law until Moses.

Please try to keep up.

there was no law except for Adam when God said do not eat or you will die..

the next law that said prety much this same thing was given on Mt Sinia

I'm up to date.

Please don't try to defend error as correct.

You stated earlier there was no law till after the flood. You didn't state,written law.

If it's not written it doesn't exist?

You were wrong.

 

[decipher]

Well here is your first mistake. There was no law until long after the flood

correct once the law came it confined that all have sinned. And it is so that all could be restored. The law said the sacrifice was for everyone. Not just a few people

What makes us sin is the hole left in our heart when we were alienated from God. We were created for god to fill that need. As a lost person we are doing everything we can to fill that whole. The problem is nothing can fill
It but God so we are on a lifelong journey to fill that whole that’s why Gid can draw us by the people who are his and his light shining through. They see hope that can be theirs also if only they would believe

Wow there is alot here. Looks like you have 4 or 5 gospels at once

Can you share with me the prices of being born again?

It's obvious to me that my whole post went over your head. Luckily, my posts are for everyone. I suggest for your sake that you get off your debate mode and turn to contemplate mode and pray for enlightenment.

 

[Magenta]

Does it really matter? Did Adam repent or did he not. is he in hades now or in paradise?

It matters that people claim something that is nowhere written as if it were.

No. and the whole world will not be saved, Is adam going to hell or heaven?

So your logic does not hold. Get it? We are not told where Adam is now.

I am not worried at this point about the world. we are talking about adam.

We are talking about what happened when A and E were fashioned skins to cover them.

Do you think Jesus would have done what he did and continued a relationship with adam if adam had not repented?

I do not

I am more concerned about what Scripture says. Where is this continuing relationship with Adam portrayed?

 

[GWH]

Yes.
but in the end. Those who do not believe are condemned

The sin issue was taken care of on the cross.

Yes and can you state what unbelievers are condemned to?

 

[Jimbone]

Why commit to an disjunctive syllogism aka false exclusionary disjunct?
When there is OBVIOUSLY no disparity. Zero.

Frankly I find it incredible that anyone in their right mind would think so.
People are just pretty dumb. Thats the problem.

Wow man, you're quite a venomous fellow huh? EVERYTHING you attack with applies just as much to you, if not more. You remind me of a democrat in the way you accuse others of everything you're doing in the same moment. To be honest I guess I'm doing the same thing in a way, by calling you out for it, but I just don't see this disagreement in theological perspective to be equal in level to the way you're speaking to them about it. I could be wrong, but I feel a straight up hatred for anything Calvin from you, not only anything Calvin, but anything you feel is "Calvinistic". It's like you believe you can label anything you want this way and that's the end of the conversation. To be honest I think you fight the imagined ghost of Calvin created in your mind more often than the actual people in the thread you're replying to.

I just don't understand why the need to come off so rudely dismissive is necessary. I never see you having an honest and in good faith conversation about these issues. Just a venomous (looking down your nose type) argument with absolutely NO substance, just machine gun proof text that can easily support both views. I don't know man I get straight shooting and not compromising our beliefs, both are admirable traits, but this just seems a bit beyond that, and does so pretty consistently from my point of view. Which I imagine means very little to you.

 

[Magenta]

Universally, the Lord died for everyone. Universally, not everyone has believed the gospel.

Obviously, the “specially” are the ones out of the whole who have believed.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Yes, those who believe in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ are saved and attain to life ever after. I see no evidence of this that can be applied to Adam and Eve. I looked up the question also, and the number of sites and videos spinning takes and tales fashioned of their fantastical leaps abounded. Yet it is absent from Scripture. They were like popes going on and on and on about Mary. I prefer to stick with what is actually said. We know what happens otherwise.