Two Natures???

[posthuman]

Well, the passage says the beasts will teach you, the birds of the air will tell you, the earth will teach you and the fish of the sea will explain to you, but NOT that they know the Lord and wait for Him. I think the NT corollary might be Romans 1:20, which says that creation manifests God's power and nature, so humans have no excuse for not knowing God and waiting for Him. I will connect those dots in my margin notes. Thanks!

It says who among them doesn't know?

and the question is clearly rhetorical - in ancient times, before humanism, it was obvious that the other living souls knew God, but man was obstinately vain.

not so much, today

 

[posthuman]

the passage says the beasts will teach you, the birds of the air will tell you, the earth will teach you and the fish of the sea will explain to you,

uh huh tell you and teach you and explain to you WHAT that you oh man, don't know, don't understand, and do not comprehend, yet they do?



... but you still gonna call them ignorant and lost and think yourself better? even after you read the scripture?

*sigh*

 

[Magenta]

you mean exactly like Scripture says?

Romans 7:18-20​

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will [to do,] I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do,] that I practice. Now if I do what I will not [to do,] it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​

​

why is that a problem?
that's salvation through the cross, not of works but by grace.

Romans 7 verses 18-24a ~ I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Magenta]

Job 12:7-10
But now ask the beasts, and they will teach you; And the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
Or speak to the earth, and it will teach you; And the fish of the sea will explain to you. Who
among all these does not know That the hand of the LORD has done this, In whose hand [is]
the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind?

Psalm 150 v 6 plus Job 12 v 7-10 - Let everything that has breath praise the Lord

 

[Aussie52]

you mean exactly like Scripture says?

Romans 7:18-20​

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will [to do,] I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do,] that I practice. Now if I do what I will not [to do,] it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​

​

why is that a problem?
that's salvation through the cross, not of works but by grace.

I believe that the person described in the latter part of Romans 7 is the unregenerate Saul, trying to keep the Law, and coming into bondage to sin. The description of being 'carnal ' & 'in bondage to sin' vv14, is an unregenerate man not a believer, see Rom 6.

 

[Blain]

Psalm 150 v 6 plus Job 12 v 7-10 - Let everything that has breath praise the Lord

oooh this one is pretty it caught my attention almost instantly

 

[Blade]

Its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me. We hear people say were sinners yet if you ask Him how He sees you.. you are in right standing with GOD aka righteousness. That, regarding your previous way of life, you put off your old self [completely discard your former nature], which is being corrupted through deceitful desires/lusts..........and put on the new self [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [godlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth [living in a way that expresses to God your gratitude for your salvation].

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Does the Christian have two natures, one sinful and the other divine?
Or does the Christian have one nature, the 'new creation'?
Your thoughts with appropriate Scripture.

Sorry I’ll try to make sense . You know how people talk about the “ fall of man ?

Think about your question for a moment and then read these

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then , They partake of the knowledge of good and evil as gods commanded them not to doand so what happened as a result of thier transgression was …

“And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22-24‬ ‭NIV‬‬

we have a duel nature because we have the knowledge of both good and evil in and all around us in the world. But we aren’t supposed to . Because we don’t have the judgement to manage the knowledge of good and evil and always do good .

We weren’t made knowing good and evil by the lord it’s a result of transgression. we were actually not supposed to know good and evil . Instead we were meant to just listen to what god told us was good and was evil and accept his judgements And walk in them being made in his image and likeness having dominion upon earth and fellowship with god never knowing evil


rather than becoming “inherantly evil “ and “ dead spiritually “at the fall of mankind . we became conflicted between good and evil which caused the duality of our nature and structure

“So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The conflicting knowledge….. caused a conflict in man’s structure and makeup our whole being is conflicted against itself because of the knowledge of good and evil

“For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit,

and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.

They are in conflict with each other, so that you cannot always do what you want.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Paul’s describing the duality of our nature and the conflict the two are in . since they sinned and ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil

We need redemption in Christ by the gospel he can renew our minds to the truth of god which is our life

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes I do find it odd that some believe they can be without sin and that one can lose their salvation due to sin, the blood of Christ must not be enough.
I knew one who believed as such and he even wanted me to try things his way you know to never sin and such but the more I tried things his way the more I found myslef to be lacking in every way and a darkness filled my soul a deep darkness until I was saved from that darkness by remembering what it was like to simply love God and be loved by him.

Then I was suddenly filled with life and joy but wow to live in that kind of death trying to not sin and be sinless it truly is death

“Yes I do find it odd that some believe they can be without sin and that one can lose their salvation due to sin, the blood of Christ must not be enough.”

I think rather some here don’t erase what god said because Jesus shed his blood for them …. instead they believe what he said and can be saved because Jesus shed his blood .

They are still able to accept this part

“If we willfully keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:2

They understand that’s true and one can mistreat the blood of gods son and be destroyed in judgement even after they accept the truth of they continue sinning willfully

Maybe they just read more of the Bible than others also a good possibility there’s quite a bit in there and it’s all very relevant and edifying

“and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It’s hard to go on sinning guilt free when we’re spending time in his word ….being called to learn to live upright by the lord and living with guilt in Christ is a weight terrible to bear repentance is a beautiful thing from the lord

 

[Aussie52]

Sorry I’ll try to make sense . You know how people talk about the “ fall of man ?

Think about your question for a moment and then read these

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then , They partake of the knowledge of good and evil as gods commanded them not to doand so what happened as a result of thier transgression was …

“And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22-24‬ ‭NIV‬‬

we have a duel nature because we have the knowledge of both good and evil in and all around us in the world. But we aren’t supposed to . Because we don’t have the judgement to manage the knowledge of good and evil and always do good .

We weren’t made knowing good and evil by the lord it’s a result of transgression. we were actually not supposed to know good and evil . Instead we were meant to just listen to what god told us was good and was evil and accept his judgements And walk in them being made in his image and likeness having dominion upon earth and fellowship with god never knowing evil


rather than becoming “inherantly evil “ and “ dead spiritually “at the fall of mankind . we became conflicted between good and evil which caused the duality of our nature and structure

“So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The conflicting knowledge….. caused a conflict in man’s structure and makeup our whole being is conflicted against itself because of the knowledge of good and evil

“For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit,

and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.

They are in conflict with each other, so that you cannot always do what you want.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Paul’s describing the duality of our nature and the conflict the two are in . since they sinned and ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil

We need redemption in Christ by the gospel he can renew our minds to the truth of god which is our life

My reading of Gal 5 is a conflict between the Holy Spirit and the flesh. I find no duality of nature in this passage.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My reading of Gal 5 is a conflict between the Holy Spirit and the flesh. I find no duality of nature in this passage.

I see ok we’ll I tried to offer an opinion god bless

 

[posthuman]

I believe that the person described in the latter part of Romans 7 is the unregenerate Saul, trying to keep the Law, and coming into bondage to sin. The description of being 'carnal ' & 'in bondage to sin' vv14, is an unregenerate man not a believer, see Rom 6.

why is it all in present tense?
does Paul typically speak about the past as though it is here and now?

Romans 7:22​

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.​

is this unregenerate man, delighting in the law of God? willing to do what is right, and not willing to do what is wrong, hating sin? ((7:15-16,18-20))

he identifies in present tense his 'self' with his mind, a non-physical thing, and sin with the desires of his flesh, being in present tense contrary to the will of his mind - - is that the unregenerate man?

and then he says:

Romans 8:6-7​

For to be carnally minded [is] death, but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.​

​

in chapter 7 he describes himself as spiritually minded, at enmity with the carnal flesh, constantly at war with it ((7:23)) - - is that the state of the unregenerate?

 

[posthuman]

My reading of Gal 5 is a conflict between the Holy Spirit and the flesh. I find no duality of nature in this passage.

Galatians 5:16​

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.​

​

there are four parties in this statement:

1. the one speaking
2. the one hearing
3. the Spirit
4. the flesh

since the one hearing is being encouraged to choose between the Spirit and the flesh, that person has in themselves both the will of the Spirit and the will of the flesh, and is able to follow either - otherwise what sense does it make to give such instruction at all?

if there was no desire in our flesh to do what is wrong, it would be completely unnecessary to encourage one another not to do those things.


what i see described both here and in Romans 6-8, and in other places, is a duality of substance that makes up our existence: a spiritual mind and a physical body.
before we were renewed in salvation in our minds, the two agreed with each other - in the unregenerate man, the mind is spiritually as dead as the flesh is.

now, in us our mind - which is spiritual - has tasted the Spirit of Life and is in disagreement with our body, and should bring that body into subjection.

Romans 8:23​

we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.​

the body of flesh is not yet renewed, but it is still part of us. in the resurrection it will be changed, and cleansed, without sin, and there will be in us no more clash of will

 

[John146]

I tend to agree with your position. According to Rom 6:6, Our 'old man', all that we are in Adam, was crucified with Christ. This means that we do not have a 'sinful nature'. Temptation to sin is external. The 'flesh' is not a sinful nature as such but our human nature under the control of sin.
The problem with the two nature idea is that it makes the individual a spectator and not the initiator of sin or obedience.
Also, the 'sinful nature' idea tends to make sin to be almost a physical 'thing' inside me, when sin is an attitude of self pleasing.

The old man was in Adam. The new man is in Christ. Our inner man has been circumcised from the body of flesh, but we must deal with the flesh daily. Scripture commands us over and over to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Walk as children of light and not the desires of the flesh.

Yes, the inner man is a new creature in Christ. Our flesh does not reflect being in Christ. Our flesh is still in Adam. Our flesh is dead. At the future redemption, our bodies will match our redeemed inner man.

 

[Blain]

“Yes I do find it odd that some believe they can be without sin and that one can lose their salvation due to sin, the blood of Christ must not be enough.”

I think rather some here don’t erase what god said because Jesus shed his blood for them …. instead they believe what he said and can be saved because Jesus shed his blood .

They are still able to accept this part

“If we willfully keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:2

They understand that’s true and one can mistreat the blood of gods son and be destroyed in judgement even after they accept the truth of they continue sinning willfully

Maybe they just read more of the Bible than others also a good possibility there’s quite a bit in there and it’s all very relevant and edifying

“and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It’s hard to go on sinning guilt free when we’re spending time in his word ….being called to learn to live upright by the lord and living with guilt in Christ is a weight terrible to bear repentance is a beautiful thing from the lord

Yes willfully sinning is certainly not a good thing but to think one can be without sin contradicts what the scriptures say and even Paul himself still struggled with the flesh

 

[ResidentAlien]

Our bodies are a new creation in Christ also:

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!" 1 Corinthians 6:15

So are our bodies members of Christ and members of Adam at the same time? Not according to this passage.

 

[ResidentAlien]

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it." 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

Unfortunately a strong gnostic influence has crept into Christ's ekklesia; that is, the idea that our spirit and soul are saved, but our bodies are evil and are only a receptacle for the spirit and soul. This leads to a "Devil made me do it" mentality. Oh well, my body made me do it, what can you do.

"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power." 1 Timothy 3:1-5

 

[posthuman]

Our bodies are a new creation in Christ also:

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!" 1 Corinthians 6:15

So are our bodies members of Christ and members of Adam at the same time? Not according to this passage.

Adam is saved, but the body of flesh is not yet redeemed.

that redemption is exactly the hope of our faith, that we wait for, that will be realized in the resurrection

 

[posthuman]

Unfortunately a strong gnostic influence has crept into Christ's ekklesia; that is, the idea that our spirit and soul are saved, but our bodies are evil and are only a receptacle for the spirit and soul. This leads to a "Devil made me do it" mentality. Oh well, my body made me do it, what can you do.

what is gnostic heresy is not that the flesh wars against the spirit ((which is entirely scriptural and orthodox)) but the idea that the resurrection is not physical.

the gnostics in the early church claimed that we will not be bodily resurrected, only spiritually, along with a whole host of crazy demigod theology.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes willfully sinning is certainly not a good thing but to think one can be without sin contradicts what the scriptures say and even Paul himself still struggled with the flesh

Yes agreed . If you think about it if I’m willfully sinning I wouldn’t be doing this when I became aware

when we realize we have sinned

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if sin is willful the person wouldnt care they sinned there would be no recognition they messed up . No room for repentance and confession .What I was meaning is the more of the stuff we don’t want to hear sinks in it changes how we perceive sin .