Total Depravity

[TMS]

One thing I know—THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF. If A theology does not harmonize with all other scriptures in the Bible then there is something wrong with that theology.

The Bible does not contradict itself. AMEN.

There are a few different interpretations all different from the others.

I believe the bible teaches that we are born with corrupted natures but not as sinners.
We are not guilty of sin until we choose to sin. We are not born with the guilt of Adam's sin.
But because we are fallen or because we inherit a nature that is sinfully inclined, selfish by nature, we all end up sinning.

We are not guilty of sin but inclined to sin when we are born.

JESUS came to save us from sin.
To save us from....
Sins we choose = justification
Sinful inclinations = sanctification
All sin s for ever = glorification

Total salvation.

 

[Beckworth]

Except for the fact that Scripture teaches that the natural man is a child of wrath, a lover of darkness, a slave to sin,
taken captive to the will of the devil. But in your mind that makes them all sunshine and rainbows, hmmm?

Here, I have a unicorn we can throw in there with them... it might brighten them
up a bit for ya in spite of what Scripture EXPLICITLY states, which you deny...

View attachment 267118

I see you did not mention or explain Ezekiel 18, or the fact that babies can’t “speak lies.” So you are going to take the parts of this Psalm that support your doctrine as literal; and ignore the parts that you know CAN’T be literal.

 

[rogerg]

I see you did not mention or explain Ezekiel 18, or the fact that babies can’t “speak lies.” So you are going to take the parts of this Psalm that support your doctrine as literal; and ignore the parts that you know CAN’T be literal.

You are aware of course that God knows whether someone is lying, even after immediately after birth, even if they're not directly verbalizing it to another person with the words that man speaks so that they can't be heard and understood - that while not discernable to man, yet they are so to God? You do realize that, right?

[Isa 48:8 KJV] 8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Ezekiel 18 refers to the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant, God's blessings to His chosen are unconditional. It seems you don't recognize the significant differences between the two covenants, which has resulted in a misinterpretation by you of their correct application.

 

[Magenta]

I see you did not mention or explain Ezekiel 18, or the fact that babies can’t “speak lies.” So you are going to take the parts of this Psalm that support your doctrine as literal; and ignore the parts that you know CAN’T be literal.

I have noticed quite a few times when you ignore what is said to you. Like every time you have said you know people were saved who have lost their salvation and then you claim only God can know who is saved. After mocking others who say they can know who is saved. Mocking! And then you do the very same thing! Claim you know. Yeah. You lie and you twist and shout about things until you are shown your contradictions or that you are wrong and then what happens? You go silent. You ignore being called to account, and you ignore Scripture again and again when it does not suit you. You want to pit one or two Scriptures against a plethora that say something quite different, all the while telling us we must believe and do what the Scriptures say. Then when you don't like what they say, you claim we can't take this one or that one literally. There is no end to it. Perhaps you should stop falsely accusing people.

 

[Magenta]

I see you did not mention or explain

I am pretty sure I have posted these numerous times on this very thread (as well as others). How many times have you attempted to explain them? Please do so now and stop being such a hypocrite. Or carry on being a hypocrite and ignoring Scriptures you don't like. Your choice.

Man's depravity vs God's Grace

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Total depravity... the first point that calvanists believe.

Please prove from the word the difference and which is correct,
Between....
We are born without sin, sinless.

We are born with sinful tendency but not sin.

We are born as one that has already sinned.

We are born WITH A HUMAN NATURE, which includes "Lusts" (strong personal desires if all sorts). (James 1:14)

WE are born SINLESS having not PERSONALLY SINNED, nor having inherited SIN from anybody else. (Deut 24:16)

WE WILL SIN at some point, and fall short of God's glory, becoming a sinner in need of Cleansing, WHICH ONLY COMES by FAITH is Jesus' SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) on the cross. (Eph 2:8,9)

 

[PaulThomson]

Whaaat, you don't believe the verses I posted say exactly that? What exactly do you understand "they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies", to mean?
I think you missed the point: we aren't sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. We have been made sinners by the Sin that dwells within our spirit due to spiritual inheritance and is that which causes us to sin from birth. The innocent blood of Psalm 106:38 is an innocence of the temporal, earthly/judicial sense, not innocence of the spiritual sense. The Sin that we each inherit from inception, is spiritual. It is by that Sin, that we are all turned into spiritual sinners and liars at birth.

[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

No, they don't. You quoted the Not Inspired Version (NIV) which badly paraphrases the actual texts.

Scripture says innocent blood. You explain it away in typical Calvinist fashion; you invent two kinds of innocence: temporal innocence and spiritual innocence.

How old was Paul when he said, "20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that IS DWELLING in me"?
How can you logically deduce from this statement from a grown man, that therefore sin must have been in him at birth?

 

[TMS]

We are born WITH A HUMAN NATURE, which includes "Lusts" (strong personal desires if all sorts). (James 1:14)

WE are born SINLESS having not PERSONALLY SINNED, nor having inherited SIN from anybody else. (Deut 24:16)

WE WILL SIN at some point, and fall short of God's glory, becoming a sinner in need of Cleansing, WHICH ONLY COMES by FAITH is Jesus' SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) on the cross. (Eph 2:8,9)

I agree
Born with the flesh that is selfish but that does not make us guilty of sin until we choose. We all sin because we all fall short.

Our only hope is Jesus.

 

[rogerg]

No, they don't. You quoted the Not Inspired Version (NIV) which badly paraphrases the actual texts.

Scripture says innocent blood. You explain it away in typical Calvinist fashion; you invent two kinds of innocence: temporal innocence and spiritual innocence.

How old was Paul when he said, "20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that IS DWELLING in me"?
How can you logically deduce from this statement from a grown man, that therefore sin must have been in him at birth?

How/when then did Sin indwell Paul? How did he go from being born sinless (as you seem to be saying), then obtain Sin?
We sin because we are sinners; we aren't sinners because we sin

BTW I did not quote the NIV, I quoted the KJV.

[Rom 3:9 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

[Psa 51:5 KJV]
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[Isa 48:8 KJV]
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Not NIV
[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Not NIV
[Rom 7:20 ESV] 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

The innocence of Psalm 106:38 is temporal/earthly, because in the spiritual, the concept of innocent blood does not exist.
Therefore, when the verse tells us of "innocent blood", it can only mean it from an earthly perspective. As is documented above, we are all born under Sin, by which we commit sin, with no exceptions to it besides Christ, and thereby is no one innocent.

 

[PaulThomson]

How/when then did Sin indwell Paul? How did he go from being born sinless (as you seem to be saying), then obtain Sin?
We sin because we are sinners; we aren't sinners because we sin

BTW I did not quote the NIV, I quoted the KJV.

[Rom 3:9 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

[Psa 51:5 KJV]
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[Isa 48:8 KJV]
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Not NIV
[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Not NIV
[Rom 7:20 ESV] 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

The innocence of Psalm 106:38 is temporal/earthly, because in the spiritual, the concept of innocent blood does not exist.
Therefore, when the verse tells us of "innocent blood", it can only mean it from an earthly perspective. As is documented above, we are all born under Sin, by which we commit sin, with no exceptions to it besides Christ, and thereby is no one innocent.

rogerg said:
[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[Psa 51:5 NIV]5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
[Jer 17:9 NIV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[Rom 7:20 NIV] 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Your highlighted texts, the translations you are relying on, are NIV.

How did Adam and Eve go from being created sinless, then obtain sin? Did they sin because they were created sinners? They became sinners by sinning. Saul of Tarsus became a sinner by sinning.

 

[Cameron143]

rogerg said:
[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[Psa 51:5 NIV]5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
[Jer 17:9 NIV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[Rom 7:20 NIV] 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Your highlighted texts, the translations you are relying on, are NIV.

How did Adam and Eve go from being created sinless, then obtain sin? Did they sin because they were created sinners? They became sinners by sinning. Saul of Tarsus became a sinner by sinning.

How do you understand Romans 7:5?

 

[Jimbone]

Total depravity... the first point that calvanists believe.

Please prove from the word the difference and which is correct,
Between....
We are born without sin, sinless.

We are born with sinful tendency but not sin.

We are born as one that has already sinned.

We do not come out of the womb having sinned, but we are born 100% broken and 100% spiritually disconnected from our Creator. Total Depravity, and this not coming from a professing "Calvinist", is just describing this condition we are born to. 100% disconnected from God and 100% unable to do anything in and of ourselves to "fix" it. That's it, as far as my understanding of it goes. Not much more to it than describing our natural born condition, that is 100% true to reality as well. Not sure why it upsets some so much to be honest, or why some believe it means we are all just as wicked as we can possibly be.

It just means we're born disconnected from God and lack ANY ability to fix it outside of Gods grace and Jesus sacrifice.

 

[CS1]

I agree that we are unable without God.
But with the provision made we can follow Jesus. By faith we can be set free.

But are we guilty of sin when we are born? No if we have not chosen to disobey God, we are not guilty. But we do, so all have sinned.

I can't find one verse of Jesus saying, children are an issue. Jesus never told a child to stop committing adultery, murder or to have faith. it has been those who knew better, Yet Jesus liked faith to that of a Child.

 

[rogerg]

How did Adam and Eve go from being created sinless, then obtain sin? Did they sin because they were created sinners? They became sinners by sinning. Saul of Tarsus became a sinner by sinning.

I don't understand your post - I relied on the KJV not the NIV. Anyway, you don't get to pass judgment on
which versions are acceptable, and which are not.

Sin causes sinning, not the reverse. It is Sin that entered into the world. Everyone who comes into this world comes into it with Sin within them by which they become sinners.

[Rom 3:9 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

[Rom 8:2 KJV
] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[Rom 7:14 KJV]
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

[Gal 3:22 KJV]
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[Rom 5:12 KJV]
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

Total depravity... the first point that calvanists believe.

Please prove from the word the difference and which is correct,
Between....
We are born without sin, sinless.

We are born with sinful tendency but not sin.

We are born as one that has already sinned.

Ephesians 2:1-3 says that we are born dead to God, spiritually stillborn. Sin is the essential self-centeredness of humans. If you want to see it illustrated, watch the great movie Amadeus, which I watched last night on my 82nd birthday. It shows two people, Mozart and Salieri, who basically cause their own deaths, Salieri of his mind and Mozart of his body, by letting self-centeredness control them. Total depravity means what I call "pervasive depravity," that is, that sin pervades every area of human life, not that we are as bad as we could possibly be.

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

But are we guilty of sin when we are born? No if we have not chosen to disobey God, we are not guilty. But we do, so all have sinned.

I believe that we are not guilty of sin at birth, as a newborn is incapable of sinning. However, due to the Fall, all humanity stands guilty before God. Adam and Eve were initially in a perfect, innocent, and sinless state. They walked in the garden without realizing their nakedness. But after eating from the forbidden tree, which God had commanded them not to eat from, they lost their innocence. Before this act, they were spiritually alive and connected to God. Afterward, they became spiritually dead and severed from God
Adam and Eve were created with a perfect nature, but their disobedience in eating from the forbidden tree resulted in a fundamental change. This act introduced a flawed nature into humanity, often referred to as the 'sinful nature.' Consequently, every human born thereafter inherited this inherent flaw, a spiritual separation from God, regardless of their innocence at birth.

This separation, as described in the Bible, remained unbridged until the arrival of Jesus, referred to as the Son of Man, was born of a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit, and thus, was not subject to the inherited sinful nature passed down from Adam. As the second Adam, Christ came from heaven and lived a sinless life, which qualified Him as the only perfect sacrifice. His purpose was to restore the broken relationship between humanity and God. Through faith in Jesus, individuals can experience a spiritual rebirth, becoming 'born again,' and reestablish their connection with God.
It’s a subject of much debate, but there’s a perspective within Christianity which I hold to is that, due to Christ’s redemptive work, all infants are encompassed by His grace. This belief posits that if an infant were to pass away, they would be received into heaven, covered by the sacrificial act of Jesus. This view emphasizes the all-encompassing nature of Christ’s atonement as an automatic provision of grace, particularly for those unable to make a conscious decision for Christ.[/QUOTE]

My two great-grandsons, however, show that they love to be the center of attention. Sin is self-centeredness, with which we born. Therefore, your assumption that newborns cannot sin doesn't fit my experience or the Scriptures like Ephesians 3:1-3.

 

[PaulThomson]

How do you understand Romans 7:5?

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

In the flesh means motivated by instinctive fight or flight responses. Sins occur when someone transgresses what a known law mandates. Instinctive fight or flight responses often conflict with legal mandates and relying on instinct often produces transgression of mandates and moral condemnation. Also, being given legal demands with implicit punishments threatens us and so tends to arouse in us instinctive fight or flight reactions to the demands themselves so that we flee from or fight against those legal demands.

Since sin is knowingly transgressing of a known moral imperative, sin does not begin to happen in a person's life until they knowingly transgress a moral imperative. This first compliance with instinct in a case where we thereby transgress the known moral imperative allows a habit of transgression/sin to begin in us. It allows sin into the flesh, so that the person who was previously innocent becomes a sinner.

Jesus releases us from trying to keep the written law out of a fear of the explicit threats made against those who transgress., i.e. in the oldness of the letter. Our motivation for our behaviour can be thankfulness and love towards God and Christ for revealing their love for us in the incarnation and the cross. This is called serving in the newness of spirit.

 

[Cameron143]

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

In the flesh means motivated by instinctive fight or flight responses. Sins occur when someone transgresses what a known law mandates. Instinctive fight or flight responses often conflict with legal mandates and relying on instinct often produces transgression of mandates and moral condemnation. Also, being given legal demands with implicit punishments threatens us and so tends to arouse in us instinctive fight or flight reactions to the demands themselves so that we flee from or fight against those legal demands.

Since sin is knowingly transgressing of a known moral imperative, sin does not begin to happen in a person's life until they knowingly transgress a moral imperative. This first compliance with instinct in a case where we thereby transgress the known moral imperative allows a habit of transgression/sin to begin in us. It allows sin into the flesh, so that the person who was previously innocent becomes a sinner.

Jesus releases us from trying to keep the written law out of a fear of the explicit threats made against those who transgress., i.e. in the oldness of the letter. Our motivation for our behaviour can be thankfulness and love towards God and Christ for revealing their love for us in the incarnation and the cross. This is called serving in the newness of spirit.

What are the motions of sin?

 

[PaulThomson]

Sin causes sinning, not the reverse. It is Sin that entered into the world. Everyone who comes into this world comes into it with Sin within them by which they become sinners.

If sin causes sinning, as you claim, then Adam and Eve must have been created sinners. Is that what you believe?

 

[PaulThomson]

What are the motions of sin?

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins (ta pathEmata tOn hamartiOn), which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

pathEma means suffering or travailing, in this case the travailing is equated to labour pains of sins about to be born/performed.

When we are married to the law, the law impregnates our flesh with the letter that ultimately kills. The letter engenders lusts which grow, until the labour pains of the sins travailing in our flesh bring forth children/works that are worthy of death. This is contrasted with our being widows of the law who have remarried to the risen Christ, who impregnates our spirits with God's Spirit The Holy Spirit generates the invisible fruit of the Spirit which grows until we labour to bring forth works worthy of God.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.