Total Depravity
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The Bible teaches babies are born without sin. Jesus used little children as an example of purity and told adults that unless we become like them—sinless— we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:14 and Luke 18:16. Psalms 106 says when people kill children they shed “innocent “ blood.
There is no scripture that says or indicates we are born with a sinful nature. That is a man-made idea. If that is true, it makes God responsible for our sins. We could blame God because He made us that way.
Ezekiel 18 proves that no one inherits sin. Sin is not inherited. God says the son shall NOT inherit sin from the father. The soul that sins it shall die. If we die , it will be from our OWN sins.
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This is a very figurative Psalm. You can’t take every word literally. For instant, babies don’t speak lies as soon as they are born—they don’t speak at all! This is an expression, along with the rest of the Psalm, just used to show how wicked some people are. We say some of the same kind of things when we say someone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth . Or, “He was born in the objective case” because he objects to everything. Or we might say, he was born a liar. We don’t mean these things LITERALLY! If your interpretation of a scripture contradicts another scripture (Ezekiel 18) then your interpretation is wrong. The Bible does not contradict itself.
Look up the meanings of the Hebrew prefix B- and the Hebrew "min" often appearing as the prefix M- .
The text says what the LXX says.
3. The wicked are estranged since (B-, apo) the womb: they go astray after [M-, apo] birth, speaking lies.
The Hebrew and LXX say sin begins some time AFTER [apo] birth, not while coming out of [ek] the womb. Obviously no child leaves the womb "speaking lies". That happens some time AFTER leaving the womb.
The KJB translators read their tradition of original sin into the Hebrew text.
[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[Psa 51:5 NIV]5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
[Jer 17:9 NIV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[Rom 7:20 NIV] 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
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What many think the Bible actually says is man-made teaching they have uncritically absorbed from men who told them, "This is what the Bible actually says."
The God of the Bible is personal, relational, loving, living and good. In other words, the God Open Theists worship and trust. Such a God is revealed on every page of scripture. The God of Calvinism, Arminianism and Molinism is immutable and impassible, and is therefore incapable of a relationship: a dynamic where He receives input from humans and responds in different ways depending on the changing circumstances and the persons changing heart. But the God of the Bible is free. He can change His mind and His plans and His dealings with humans according to man's responses to Him. He is described as doing so numerous times in scripture. Open theists believe the description God gives of Himself in the complete Bible. The other Christian isms reject biblical reports of God repenting, changing His mind, regretting and being frustrated. Open theism embraces those revelations of God's character and include those in our dealings with Him.
The God of the Bible is personal, relational, loving, living and good. In other words, the God Open Theists worship and trust. Such a God is revealed on every page of scripture. The God of Calvinism, Arminianism and Molinism is immutable and impassible, and is therefore incapable of a relationship: a dynamic where He receives input from humans and responds in different ways depending on the changing circumstances and the persons changing heart. But the God of the Bible is free. He can change His mind and His plans and His dealings with humans according to man's responses to Him. He is described as doing so numerous times in scripture. Open theists believe the description God gives of Himself in the complete Bible. The other Christian isms reject biblical reports of God repenting, changing His mind, regretting and being frustrated. Open theism embraces those revelations of God's character and include those in our dealings with Him.
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I don't think you can name a theism that describes God.
God is higher and more complicated then, we will ever comprehend.
He knows the beginning from the end.
He can make anything happen and knows what will happen before it happens.
But God will not break His own laws.
Laws including free choice.
God is higher and more complicated then, we will ever comprehend.
He knows the beginning from the end.
He can make anything happen and knows what will happen before it happens.
But God will not break His own laws.
Laws including free choice.
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1Jo 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
A command that no one can ever possibly keep? I think not.
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Jer 18:11
“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”
Jer 18:12
And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”
An exhortation to righteousness that no one can ever possibly keep? I think not. But that is what the Israelites wrongly concluded.
Which of course correlates with this folly:
Mat 25:24
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
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God's goodness and righteousness is never to be tested by men. Never tested.....ONLY TRUSTED!
The same way Adam trusted God for salvation.
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
A command that no one can ever possibly keep? I think not.
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Jer 18:11
“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”
Jer 18:12
And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”
An exhortation to righteousness that no one can ever possibly keep? I think not. But that is what the Israelites wrongly concluded.
Which of course correlates with this folly:
Mat 25:24
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
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God's goodness and righteousness is never to be tested by men. Never tested.....ONLY TRUSTED!
The same way Adam trusted God for salvation.
Absolutely agree.
In fact this is the primordial accusation of Satan. Which was effective on 1/3 of angels and the Woman.
However the Woman repented at her unbelief (at the trial) and rightly accused Satan as a deceiver.
Adam, being in the image and likeness of God, was NOT deceived 1 Tim 2:14.
I believe that Adam could not be deceived by Satan. Ever. And I think Satan made many attempts.
Gen 3:13
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
In fact this is the primordial accusation of Satan. Which was effective on 1/3 of angels and the Woman.
However the Woman repented at her unbelief (at the trial) and rightly accused Satan as a deceiver.
Adam, being in the image and likeness of God, was NOT deceived 1 Tim 2:14.
I believe that Adam could not be deceived by Satan. Ever. And I think Satan made many attempts.
Gen 3:13
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
David also said in that Psalm that God had “ “broken his bones” and that his “bones might rejoice.”; and for God to “ purge him with hyssop.” ; all poetical and figurative language. I might say that a person “has been a liar from birth.” But that does not mean it is so literally. I might believe what you say about total depravity if there were not other scriptures that deny this. But there are other scriptures that show that children are pure and sinless. Psalm 106:38. One thing I know—THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF. If A theology does not harmonize with all other scriptures in the Bible then there is something wrong with that theology.
Isaiah 1:4-5 Alas, O sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children of depravity! They have forsaken the LORD; they have despised the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on Him. Why do you want more beatings? Why do you keep rebelling? Your head has a massive wound, and your whole heart is afflicted.
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Except for the fact that Scripture teaches that the natural man is a child of wrath, a lover of darkness, a slave to sin,
taken captive to the will of the devil. But in your mind that makes them all sunshine and rainbows, hmmm?
Here, I have a unicorn we can throw in there with them... it might brighten them
up a bit for ya in spite of what Scripture EXPLICITLY states, which you deny...
taken captive to the will of the devil. But in your mind that makes them all sunshine and rainbows, hmmm?
Here, I have a unicorn we can throw in there with them... it might brighten them
up a bit for ya in spite of what Scripture EXPLICITLY states, which you deny...
Whaaat, you don't believe the verses I posted say exactly that? What exactly do you understand "they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies", to mean?
I think you missed the point: we aren't sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. We have been made sinners by the Sin that dwells within our spirit due to spiritual inheritance and is that which causes us to sin from birth. The innocent blood of Psalm 106:38 is an innocence of the temporal, earthly/judicial sense, not innocence of the spiritual sense. The Sin that we each inherit from inception, is spiritual. It is by that Sin, that we are all turned into spiritual sinners and liars at birth.
[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I think you missed the point: we aren't sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. We have been made sinners by the Sin that dwells within our spirit due to spiritual inheritance and is that which causes us to sin from birth. The innocent blood of Psalm 106:38 is an innocence of the temporal, earthly/judicial sense, not innocence of the spiritual sense. The Sin that we each inherit from inception, is spiritual. It is by that Sin, that we are all turned into spiritual sinners and liars at birth.
[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.