TONGUES false teaching.

[Scribe]

The scripture you provided does not say that the women spoke in tongues. If does say that at a future time Jewish women will prophecy and Jewish men will see visions. This will be at the fulfillment of Joel 2 and will include wonders in the earth and in heaven. Signs that were not present at Pentecost.

You cry hermeneutics yet take no care to actually read what is written in the scripture. You have a predetermined conclusion that you will cite even if the scriptures teach the direct opposite.

Good luck with that theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Peter said THIS IS THAT .... what they were seeing and hearing.... THIS IS THAT... Peter understood that they were in the Last Days right then..

Peter spoke about being in the Last Days in his other writings, as did Paul and others. The Last Days begin when Jesus Came and we are still in the last days.

Hermeneutically it is impossible to say that Peter said "in the future.... Joels prophesy will be fulfilled....but not today... " He clearly said THIS IS THAT which Joel spoke... And therefore you are trying to change what Peter said to something else and it is obvious to everyone that you are doing it. Why would you pretend you are not?

THIS IS THAT ...Joel spoke about their daughters and handmaidens prophesying that now LOOK THIS IS THAT ....

We all understand it. You can't make it say something different no matter how much you try. The women spoke in tongues, Peter considered it the same as prophesying and pointed it out and said THIS IS THAT....

Eazy Peazy... only a false teacher can mess that up.

 

[SophieT]

Well our Pentecostal friends are to be likened to the seeds that were sown and fell in among the thorns. They are not able to grow to fruition because of the thorns that encumber the ground in which they are planted.

Show forth the truth because there are many who look into the forums that never participate. They may be open to the truth of Gods word even if those who claim to know it will not.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Scattering nonsense again? Not everyone who speaks in tongues is Pentecostal and for that matter, the believing Jews weren't either

I don't think you have any Pentecostal friends though to tell the truth.

 

[breno785au]

Roger......I have been on several Christian forums in my journey. I was invited to join this one by one of the members here.

Now maybe it is just me, and maybe it is because it is that I am new "here", but from what I have seen, I am amazed at the lack of Bible understanding I have seen exhibited here so far.

I am grateful that you have shown yourself to be a Bible believing Christian and I hope that you will stay here and help those who need to hear BIBLE DOCTRINE!

As for me.......It is to soon to tell!

It must be very frustrating for you to be amongst us.
I can see it in your posts.

 

[fredoheaven]

Nonsense. Nothing says they didn't. Since the passage says EVERYONE received the Holy Spirit with tongues, you cannot say otherwise.

The Holy Spirit at Pentecost
(Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; John 16:5-16; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Do you have that missing in your Bible?

Does the word 'all' mean something different to you then it does to everyone else in the world?

Understand that the entire world can read that whether or not they even believe in God and each one will understand that every person spoke in tongues.

How is it that a supposed Christian man does not see that? The reason is because said Christian man has his own idea about women and it is not biblical. YOU desire women to be silent. God does not.

Don't point to a specific occasion in the Corinthian church wherein Paul addressed unlearned women and told them not to call out but rather refer to their husbands at home. That is not a blanket statement for all women for all time. It could not be when women gave prophecies and did speak in tongues as Acts 2 plainly describes.

You have a problem it would seem. Actually two. You have a problem with women and a problem with God because of the first problem

The breakdown of those who speak with other tongues were seen in verse 6 and 8. True men and women were all filled but not all speak at that moment.

 

[SophieT]

From my understanding, Major is correct on some things he believes, and dead wrong on others.

The "upper room" is where the apostles "abode" (Acts 1:13). They lived there. In that culture, women would not be permitted into the living quarters of men they were not related to. Also, houses in Jerusalem were small. The upper room would not have been large enough for 120 people to congregate. The place where they "all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women" (Acts 1:14) would have been the Temple (Luke 24:53).

Likewise, on the day of Pentecost, the place where "they were all with one accord in one place" (Acts 2:1) would have been the Temple. That is where people met and prayed. The "they" in that verse refers back to Acts 1:26: "..he [Matthias] was numbered with the eleven apostles". So the twelve were with one accord in the Temple. The sound from heaven of a rushing mighty wind filled all the house (the Temple) where they (the twelve) were sitting (Acts 2:2). Everyone would have heard the sound. The cloven tongues as of fire appeared to them (the twelve) and sat upon each of them (the twelve) (Acts 2:3). And they (the twelve) were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues (Acts 2:4). At the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit, only the twelve received, and only the twelve spoke in tongues. Major's comments in an earlier post about all the ones who spoke were Galilean was correct. The twelve were from Galilee.

In Acts 2, there is not any information as to whether anyone else spoke in tongues or not. We do know that 3000 people believed after hearing Peter's sermon (Acts 2:41), but the Bible simply does not say whether they spoke in tongues or not.

So I do agree with Major that only the twelve received the initial ourpouring of the gift of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and that only the twelve initially spoke in tongues.

But I COMPLETELY disagree with him in his understanding of 1 Cor 12-14, with his belief that the "sign gifts" ceased when we "got the completed Bible", and his belief that women were not permitted to speak in tongues. God wants ALL Christians to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5, 37, 39). The manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY Christian (1 Cor 12:7).

I think that earlier in this thread someone asked why we should speak in tongues, what is it good for.

1) God wants us to do it. (1 Cor 14:5)
2) It edifies you. (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20)
3) When spoken aloud in the church and interpreted, it edifies the church. (1 Cor 14:5)
4) You are speaking to God divine secrets. (1 Cor 14:2)
5) It is prayer in the Spirit. (1 Cor 14:14-15)
6) When you speak in tongues, you are giving thanks well. (1 Cor 14:17)

I speak in tongues, and will continue to do so until I die or until Jesus Christ returns, whichever comes first

smh

 

[SophieT]

The breakdown of those who speak with other tongues were seen in verse 6 and 8. True men and women were all filled but not all speak at that moment.

smh

 

[VARob]

Well our Pentecostal friends are to be likened to the seeds that were sown and fell in among the thorns. They are not able to grow to fruition because of the thorns that encumber the ground in which they are planted.

You're an ignorant man, Roger, who thinks he isn't. Not a good combination.

 

[VARob]

smh

Shake your head if you must. But I would be interested to hear your reasons why you disagree.

 

[Scribe]

Well our Pentecostal friends are to be likened to the seeds that were sown and fell in among the thorns. They are not able to grow to fruition because of the thorns that encumber the ground in which they are planted.

Show forth the truth because there are many who look into the forums that never participate. They may be open to the truth of Gods word even if those who claim to know it will not.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We get along with non pentecostals. Our honest brothers and sisters who differ in interpretations are tolerated on both sides. However bad hermeneutics will always be pointed out. Most nonpentecostals who do not believe that the gift of tongues are for the church today would tell you that they believe that the women among the 120 did speak in tongues and that Peter pointed it out as a sign that the prophesy of Joel was being fulfilled. They don't resort to bad heremeneutics to support their positions. The simply understand that what happened at that time does not apply to today. No we can discuss the reasons why they feel that way and get along just fine.

Your being corrected not because you are not a pentecostal. But because you are saying that the 120 did not speak in tongues and the women among them did not. This is what you are being taken to task on and you are going to loose that debate where ever you take it even to a reformed site. Or whatever non pentecostal evangelical group you pick.
Name a respected Evangelical Bible Believing Theological University NonPentecostral and I challenge you to find one professor that will agree with the heremeneutic that only the 12 spoke in tongues.

Dallas Theological University does not allow Pentecostal or Charismatic believing professors to teach there. And yet I will guess that any of their current professors will disagree with your interpretation that the women did not speak in tongues on the day of Pentecost.

Your interpretation cannot be supported from the text but the text does support that the women were present, that all spoke in tongues, and that Peter pointed out that the women spoke in tongues and he was using it as a reason why it was the beginning of the fulfilment of Joel's prophesy even though there is more to that prophesy to come.

Now you can say you reject the professors at DTS but you cannot say they do not know the bible. You can reject the majority of Greek scholars that disagree with your interpretation on whether the women were included but you cannot say they do not know the scriptures. All you can say is that you are going to stick to your views even if it is rejected by the vast majority of scholars and commentaries that have ever been written in the history of the church but you can't say everyone else was ignorant and your were not. You are going to lose this debate on whether women spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost.

 

[Lisamn]

it actually says if there is none given that person is to speak quietly to themselves. It does not say IF there is not interpretation must be. Remember those who speak are to pray that they Interpret 1cor 14 says.

I think so too.

 

[SophieT]

Shake your head if you must. But I would be interested to hear your reasons why you disagree.

see post 649 for one

 

[notuptome]

You're an ignorant man, Roger, who thinks he isn't. Not a good combination.

You are judging and will be so judged as you judge others. Judge righteous judgements and judge according to the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Lisamn]

Paul taught the need for interpreting speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14:27-28. The Corinthians were likely not following this order, but Paul does not correct them for being attention-seekers, but rather for being childish in their understanding. They misunderstood how these spiritual gifts should operate.

I would like to suggest that you be careful about judging other people's motives. Some people come from church traditions where it feels like it is a sin to make the sound of a pin dropping while the service is going on. Any deviations from hymns-prayer-offering-prayer-sermon-communion-prayer-hymns seems like sacrilege to them. They think 'Let all things be done decently and in order' refers to this type of church meeting they grew up with, rather than the type of meeting Paul describes in the chapter where that quote comes from, I Corinthians 14.

In I Corinthians 14:26, Paul writes, 'How is it then brethren, when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." Paul wrote a lot about spiritual gifts. The church meeting is where 'regular believers' can speak, using their gift to edify others. Paul pointed out that 'every one of you' had these things to share in church. His restriction on it was 'let all things be done unto edifying.' Then he specified how members of the congregation could speak in tongues, interpret, and prophesy in an orderly manner.

No where in scripture does it speak of one pastor offering one sermon in the meeting. Paul did, on one occasion before leaving the next day, teach the disciples all night. The word for teach is the word from whence we get the English 'dialogue', and it is possible he taught by means of discussion.

Some Pentecostal and Charismatic churches allow at least some aspect of this type of meeting in allowing for prophecies and tongues and interpretation. In my experience, too many of them are still bound to the pulpit-centered, sermon-centered tradition of church, but there is still room for some forms of mutual edification in these churches beyond the congregational hymn singing, joint scripture reading and confessing of 'amen' of Protestant churches.

One should be careful not to judge the motives of those who seek to use their gifts to edify others as 'attention-seeking'. And Paul's approach to those who misused tongues was to consider them childish in their understanding, not to accuse them of fake tongues or even attention-seeking.

If I don’t judge the right or wrong of it against the Bible...if they are in error..I will also be in error If I follow the teaching. So I must be a good berean and check the scriptures. We know that Jesus says that false teachers and prophets will come and to be on the alert for them..so its only good to make sure you’re not following falsely.

Why would the 'point' be any different than in the first century?

Most Americans speak English...would we then need to hear people speaking in tongues in church in that case?

 

[notuptome]

We get along with non pentecostals. Our honest brothers and sisters who differ in interpretations are tolerated on both sides. However bad hermeneutics will always be pointed out. Most nonpentecostals who do not believe that the gift of tongues are for the church today would tell you that they believe that the women among the 120 did speak in tongues and that Peter pointed it out as a sign that the prophesy of Joel was being fulfilled. They don't resort to bad heremeneutics to support their positions. The simply understand that what happened at that time does not apply to today. No we can discuss the reasons why they feel that way and get along just fine.

Your being corrected not because you are not a pentecostal. But because you are saying that the 120 did not speak in tongues and the women among them did not. This is what you are being taken to task on and you are going to loose that debate where ever you take it even to a reformed site. Or whatever non pentecostal evangelical group you pick.
Name a respected Evangelical Bible Believing Theological University NonPentecostral and I challenge you to find one professor that will agree with the heremeneutic that only the 12 spoke in tongues.

Dallas Theological University does not allow Pentecostal or Charismatic believing professors to teach there. And yet I will guess that any of their current professors will disagree with your interpretation that the women did not speak in tongues on the day of Pentecost.

Your interpretation cannot be supported from the text but the text does support that the women were present, that all spoke in tongues, and that Peter pointed out that the women spoke in tongues and he was using it as a reason why it was the beginning of the fulfilment of Joel's prophesy even though there is more to that prophesy to come.

Now you can say you reject the professors at DTS but you cannot say they do not know the bible. You can reject the majority of Greek scholars that disagree with your interpretation on whether the women were included but you cannot say they do not know the scriptures. All you can say is that you are going to stick to your views even if it is rejected by the vast majority of scholars and commentaries that have ever been written in the history of the church but you can't say everyone else was ignorant and your were not. You are going to lose this debate on whether women spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost.

I did not comment on women speaking in tongues at Pentecost. I do not have any respect for DTS.

If we read Joel 2 we see that there are additional signs that were not present at Pentecost. Those signs will be fulfilled at a future date. They will also be specific to the Jews which in my mind makes them during the tribulation after the rapture of the church.

In any case that does not make provision for the chaos of tongues in the modern church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SophieT]

Shake your head if you must. But I would be interested to hear your reasons why you disagree.

For another, the upper room was not a bedroom. It would have been the large room on the roof of a house. This was already a place where people went to pray and ask God to move. Guests were also staying in that room as well when they would visit.

At the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit, only the twelve received, and only the twelve spoke in tongues. Major's comments in an earlier post about all the ones who spoke were Galilean was correct. The twelve were from Galilee.

This may be your understanding, but it is not correct. The upper room is not what you assumed it was.

 

[Lisamn]

Why don't you go speak to the pastor's wife? Ask her why she speaks in tongues out loud in the church congregation when 1 Cor 14:28 tells us to speak in tongues silently to God under the scenario you described in your Posts #281 and #287.





It is the Spirit which gives utterance. So, in effect, what you are saying is that when the Spirit gives utterance, the believer is to refuse the utterance because ... ???

I already tried to find out about it with her and she just smiled at me and didn’t give me any other info on why she was doing it.

If it really is the spirit giving utterance...and I think if that were the case then someone should be able to interpret what she is saying. I never got any indication that anyone knew what she said but she kept talking in that language anyway. So, then if no one knows what she is saying..isn’t it wrong?

 

[SophieT]

Most Americans speak English...would we then need to hear people speaking in tongues in church in that case?

That again? pffft

 

[Lisamn]

That again? pffft

What’s the problem with that?

 

[SophieT]

@VARob

Further Jesus and the disciples had the 'Last Supper' in an upper room. The gospels are not specific as to exactly where though

On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?” So he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him, and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks, Where is my guestroom where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.” So the disciples set out and went to the city, and found everything as he had told them; and they prepared the Passover meal. When it was evening, he came with the twelve. (Mark 14:12-17)​

 

[Scribe]

It might be the 108 were not identified speakers as Luke said in verse 14 "But Peter, standing up with the eleven" + the testimony of those "devout men verse 5 and how they heard "every man" v. 6 and 8 excluding the women. The Joel prophecy in Acts 2 is at it's own beginning and this not justify women speaking in the other tongues (Language).

The number given was 120
14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)


1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(If you're on a desert island alone with only the bible and no religious teaching, history, or other books to reference would you interpret 1-5 as including everyone in the room?)


And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The devout men heard every man in our out tongue is the KJV way of saying "each of us" and not meaning "we only hear males"

New International Version
Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

New Living Translation
and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages!

English Standard Version
And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

Berean Study Bible
How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language?

Berean Literal Bible
And how do we each hear our own language in which we were born?

King James Bible
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The every man means "each one of us"

When Peter stands up with the eleven (they stood up with him) The speaking in tongues was over. Peter addressed them in the common language. Probably Aramaic.

Peter says that THIS IS THAT the Daughters are prophesying.. Dont you See!!! The Handmaidens are Prophesying!!!! THIS IS THAT.

17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

We know that there is more to be fulfilled, the very last of the last days as seen in Revelation concerning the sun turned into darkness. As in many other prophecies about Jesus first coming and second coming together in the same passage.

We have the beginning of this prophesy starting here and it will culminate with the sun and moon details in the future but the Outpouring of the Spirit part started then and the ALL FLESH included gentiles but they did not know it until Cornelius house, what they did discover on this day is that it included WOMEN.

Y'all need to catch up with the program. It has been going on for 2000 years. Women are also called to minister in the power of the Holy Ghost. And many of them have been doing so since that day.

The good news is that God empowers women with His spirit, they speak in tongues, interpret, prophesy, and preach and teach the Bible and there is nothing those with bad hermeneutics can do about it. Absolutely nothing.

And they still have to love these women and accept them as sisters in the Lord or they are walking in darkness.