This question is for Pretribulational advocates but anybody can chime in.
- Thread starter bluto
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What kind? 
-
2
- Show all
So, I think that a pre-tribber could say this is a preterist verse. "Man of Lawlessness" =/= Antichrist: the MoL was a Zealot-Priest or something in 66-70 AD, and the temple in this verse refers to the Herodian temple.... OR spiritualize it and say the temple is the human body and satan is dwelling in the non-believers. Then say something like "God wouldn't make the church go through all that!".
I tend to agree with the idea that it's before the bowl judgements. Doesn't really matter to me exactly when it is though.
I tend to agree with the idea that it's before the bowl judgements. Doesn't really matter to me exactly when it is though.
It helps to remember that when this was written, the temple still stood. Titus destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The soldiers looted it, defiling the temple as well as destroying it. Roman emperors from Julius Caeser onwards claimed to be God and were officially awarded that status by Rome's senate.
"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour" 1 John 2:18
To come to a conclusion is not possible by reading one verse. The following link is to an article that supports the pretrib view.
https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1117&context=pretrib_arch
"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour" 1 John 2:18
To come to a conclusion is not possible by reading one verse. The following link is to an article that supports the pretrib view.
https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1117&context=pretrib_arch
Anyone who believes in a Middle or Post Trib Rapture ----
Please give me the scripture that talks about any kind of a resurrection taking place during that time ----where Jesus calls the dead Saints to be caught up with Him in the cloud --------
Middle Trib Rapture believers -----Resurrection of the dead Saints meeting Jesus in the air on a cloud ---Provide scripture ---
Post Trib Rapture believers -------Resurrection of the Dead Saints meeting Jesus in the air on a cloud ---Provide Scripture -----
I say ------The people who disbelieve in a Pre--Trib Rapture will disregard any scripture evidence that is given to show that there just might be a Pre --Trib Rapture because they have already made their mind up and are closed to even entertaining any other scripture that is given to support the Pre--Trib Rapture
And the same applies to the Pre--Trib believers -----they will disregard the Middle -Trib Rapture and Post Trib Rapture scripture Presented because they believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and believe Scripture supports that -----
My View -------------So really discussing this subject is futile -----as minds are made up already and nothing said will change the mind of the person ------so asking for proof of scripture to prove your stance on this subject is again Futile ----as no positive results will be accomplished ----Division Prevails ------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But here it goes ------Article with scripture
Interesting Article ------read all for yourselves if interested ------I am just posting this much of the Article ------read 10 more proofs of Pre--Trib Rapture I just posted 6 ----Will the proofs change your Stance on this subject --------NO----
http://storage.cloversites.com/maki...documents/16 Proofs of a Pre-Trib Rapture.pdf
BIBLE PROPHECY 16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture www.makinglifecount.net Our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the Rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as trying to avoid all trouble and persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation. We believe the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation because more Scriptures support a pre-tribulation Rapture over the Amillennial, Post-millennial, and Post-tribulation theories.
We can't be dogmatic about something that hasn't occurred yet. Whenever He comes back is His will, which should be sufficient for whatever position you hold. In the meantime,
God has given us Scriptures to examine. The following list of Scriptures indicate the Rapture will be Pre-Tribulation.
16 Proofs for a Pre-Trib Rapture -----
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection. The Rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the Second Coming of Christ, does not mention a resurrection? The Rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention of it here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The Rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection. This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted. In the Old Testament, two different pictures are painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these Scriptures, we can see that they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King. In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call the Rapture and the Second Coming.
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1) The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the Rapture
(see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out.
This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the Second Coming
Please give me the scripture that talks about any kind of a resurrection taking place during that time ----where Jesus calls the dead Saints to be caught up with Him in the cloud --------
Middle Trib Rapture believers -----Resurrection of the dead Saints meeting Jesus in the air on a cloud ---Provide scripture ---
Post Trib Rapture believers -------Resurrection of the Dead Saints meeting Jesus in the air on a cloud ---Provide Scripture -----
I say ------The people who disbelieve in a Pre--Trib Rapture will disregard any scripture evidence that is given to show that there just might be a Pre --Trib Rapture because they have already made their mind up and are closed to even entertaining any other scripture that is given to support the Pre--Trib Rapture
And the same applies to the Pre--Trib believers -----they will disregard the Middle -Trib Rapture and Post Trib Rapture scripture Presented because they believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and believe Scripture supports that -----
My View -------------So really discussing this subject is futile -----as minds are made up already and nothing said will change the mind of the person ------so asking for proof of scripture to prove your stance on this subject is again Futile ----as no positive results will be accomplished ----Division Prevails ------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But here it goes ------Article with scripture
Interesting Article ------read all for yourselves if interested ------I am just posting this much of the Article ------read 10 more proofs of Pre--Trib Rapture I just posted 6 ----Will the proofs change your Stance on this subject --------NO----
http://storage.cloversites.com/maki...documents/16 Proofs of a Pre-Trib Rapture.pdf
BIBLE PROPHECY 16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture www.makinglifecount.net Our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the Rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as trying to avoid all trouble and persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation. We believe the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation because more Scriptures support a pre-tribulation Rapture over the Amillennial, Post-millennial, and Post-tribulation theories.
We can't be dogmatic about something that hasn't occurred yet. Whenever He comes back is His will, which should be sufficient for whatever position you hold. In the meantime,
God has given us Scriptures to examine. The following list of Scriptures indicate the Rapture will be Pre-Tribulation.
16 Proofs for a Pre-Trib Rapture -----
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection. The Rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the Second Coming of Christ, does not mention a resurrection? The Rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention of it here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The Rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection. This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted. In the Old Testament, two different pictures are painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these Scriptures, we can see that they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King. In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call the Rapture and the Second Coming.
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1) The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the Rapture
(see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out.
This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the Second Coming
I have no idea why you brought up John 14? I suggest you read my #1 post again. My question is simple and to the point. At vs3 the disciples ask Jesus when will the temple be torn down and what is the sign or your coming. and the end of the age/world? Jesus explains all about the things that will happen before His coming and the end of the world from verses 4-14.
Then at vs15 as far as I'm concerned is a "tip off" of His coming. "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand). Jesus then tells them you had better get out of Dodge by fleeing.
Now, at vs 29, Jesus says, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will darken etc. Then at vs30 He says the sign of the Son of Man will appear etc. As far as I'm concerned, this is the second coming, verses 30-31. Since you believe you are going to raptured, please give me the verses as proof that the rapture is before the antichrist appears? And like I also stated the Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus stated. Others here seem to understand my question, why not you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Then at vs15 as far as I'm concerned is a "tip off" of His coming. "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand). Jesus then tells them you had better get out of Dodge by fleeing.
Now, at vs 29, Jesus says, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will darken etc. Then at vs30 He says the sign of the Son of Man will appear etc. As far as I'm concerned, this is the second coming, verses 30-31. Since you believe you are going to raptured, please give me the verses as proof that the rapture is before the antichrist appears? And like I also stated the Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus stated. Others here seem to understand my question, why not you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
What's clear? Obviously your telling me these verses prove that the rapture will occur before the antichrist is revealed who will also be standing in the holy place telling everyone that he is God. To that I say, "Horse Hockey." And here are the reasons why? I will use the very verses you quoted me.
Look at Romans 5:8-9, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Vs9, Much more then having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved/delivered from the wrath of God through Him." Now please think! These verses are talking about salvation proper as in getting saved so you "WILL NOT" face the wrath of God.
Now, do you want to know what's even more interesting? You quoting 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Please pay attention to the context. Oh yea, and before I forget this verse is the "go to" verse pretribulationist always go to prove the rapture because God does not destine us to wrath.
Vs1, "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. Vs2, For (or because) you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. Vs3, While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (Escape what?)
Vs4, But you, brethren are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief; (why?) vs5, for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; Vs6, so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. Vs7, For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. Vs8, But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
(Now for the kicker). For (0r because) God has not destined us for wrath, but for OBTAINING SALVATION through our Lord Jesus Christ. , vs10, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." Now I purposefully quoted all these verses to show you the force of what they are teaching.
We are not children of the night because we are saved through Him and according to John 1:4, "In Him was life, AND HE IS THE LIGHT OF MEN." We are not children of wrath because were saved, that is the context. The wrath for them is rejecting Jesus Christ. Please compare 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10. Also 1 Thessalonians 2:16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. Btu WRATH has come upon them to the utmost." One more, Ephesians 2:3. Does all of this make sense?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Look at Romans 5:8-9, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Vs9, Much more then having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved/delivered from the wrath of God through Him." Now please think! These verses are talking about salvation proper as in getting saved so you "WILL NOT" face the wrath of God.
Now, do you want to know what's even more interesting? You quoting 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Please pay attention to the context. Oh yea, and before I forget this verse is the "go to" verse pretribulationist always go to prove the rapture because God does not destine us to wrath.
Vs1, "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. Vs2, For (or because) you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. Vs3, While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (Escape what?)
Vs4, But you, brethren are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief; (why?) vs5, for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; Vs6, so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. Vs7, For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. Vs8, But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
(Now for the kicker). For (0r because) God has not destined us for wrath, but for OBTAINING SALVATION through our Lord Jesus Christ. , vs10, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." Now I purposefully quoted all these verses to show you the force of what they are teaching.
We are not children of the night because we are saved through Him and according to John 1:4, "In Him was life, AND HE IS THE LIGHT OF MEN." We are not children of wrath because were saved, that is the context. The wrath for them is rejecting Jesus Christ. Please compare 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10. Also 1 Thessalonians 2:16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. Btu WRATH has come upon them to the utmost." One more, Ephesians 2:3. Does all of this make sense?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto