This question is for Pretribulational advocates but anybody can chime in.

[selahsays]

I need a story.

What kind?

 

[Cameron143]

What kind?

Romans, Gary and bluto all have similar stories. I thought maybe I should get one.

 

[Romans34]

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

Do you see anything here about the Antichrist or the Holy Place? This is the primary revelation of the Rapture and the very words of Christ. Enough said.

This Scripture explains that He is coming, but please note this doesn't answer the WHEN:

Please provide scriptural proof that it is BEFORE the appearance of the antichrist ...

 

[Cameron143]

What kind?

Romans, Gary and bluto all have similar stories. I thought maybe I should get one.

 

[SomeDisciple]

The Apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 backs up Jesus' statement. "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, vs2, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Vs3, Let no one in any way deceive you, for (or because) it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, vs4, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

So, I think that a pre-tribber could say this is a preterist verse. "Man of Lawlessness" =/= Antichrist: the MoL was a Zealot-Priest or something in 66-70 AD, and the temple in this verse refers to the Herodian temple.... OR spiritualize it and say the temple is the human body and satan is dwelling in the non-believers. Then say something like "God wouldn't make the church go through all that!".

I tend to agree with the idea that it's before the bowl judgements. Doesn't really matter to me exactly when it is though.

 

[Gideon300]

Jesus responds to q question by His disciples at Matthew 24:3. "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying. "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age/world." Jesus then explains from verses 4-14 the things that will be taking place, which by the way are happening in a big way as of the writing of this post.

Jesus then gives what I will call a "tip off" of what to look for at Matthew 24:15, "Therefore (therefore is defined as "for that reason" referring to what was said in the previous verses) when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),"

The Apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 backs up Jesus' statement. "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, vs2, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Vs3, Let no one in any way deceive you, for (or because) it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, vs4, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

In regards to the above the Apostle Paul made the following comments on this issue at 2 Timothy 2:16-18, "But avoid worldly and empt5y chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, vs17, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection (singular) has already taken place, and thus upset the faith of some."

So here is my question? What verse or verses can you provide proving that the so-called rapture of the Church will happen before the antichrist is revealed, standing in the temple/holy place claiming to be God?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

It helps to remember that when this was written, the temple still stood. Titus destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The soldiers looted it, defiling the temple as well as destroying it. Roman emperors from Julius Caeser onwards claimed to be God and were officially awarded that status by Rome's senate.

"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour" 1 John 2:18

To come to a conclusion is not possible by reading one verse. The following link is to an article that supports the pretrib view.

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1117&context=pretrib_arch

 

[studentoftheword]

Anyone who believes in a Middle or Post Trib Rapture ----

Please give me the scripture that talks about any kind of a resurrection taking place during that time ----where Jesus calls the dead Saints to be caught up with Him in the cloud --------

Middle Trib Rapture believers -----Resurrection of the dead Saints meeting Jesus in the air on a cloud ---Provide scripture ---

Post Trib Rapture believers -------Resurrection of the Dead Saints meeting Jesus in the air on a cloud ---Provide Scripture -----

I say ------The people who disbelieve in a Pre--Trib Rapture will disregard any scripture evidence that is given to show that there just might be a Pre --Trib Rapture because they have already made their mind up and are closed to even entertaining any other scripture that is given to support the Pre--Trib Rapture

And the same applies to the Pre--Trib believers -----they will disregard the Middle -Trib Rapture and Post Trib Rapture scripture Presented because they believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and believe Scripture supports that -----

My View -------------So really discussing this subject is futile -----as minds are made up already and nothing said will change the mind of the person ------so asking for proof of scripture to prove your stance on this subject is again Futile ----as no positive results will be accomplished ----Division Prevails ------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But here it goes ------Article with scripture

Interesting Article ------read all for yourselves if interested ------I am just posting this much of the Article ------read 10 more proofs of Pre--Trib Rapture I just posted 6 ----Will the proofs change your Stance on this subject --------NO----

http://storage.cloversites.com/maki...documents/16 Proofs of a Pre-Trib Rapture.pdf

BIBLE PROPHECY 16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture www.makinglifecount.net Our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the Rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as trying to avoid all trouble and persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation. We believe the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation because more Scriptures support a pre-tribulation Rapture over the Amillennial, Post-millennial, and Post-tribulation theories.
We can't be dogmatic about something that hasn't occurred yet. Whenever He comes back is His will, which should be sufficient for whatever position you hold. In the meantime,

God has given us Scriptures to examine. The following list of Scriptures indicate the Rapture will be Pre-Tribulation.

16 Proofs for a Pre-Trib Rapture -----

Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection. The Rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the Second Coming of Christ, does not mention a resurrection? The Rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention of it here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The Rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection. This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted. In the Old Testament, two different pictures are painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these Scriptures, we can see that they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King. In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call the Rapture and the Second Coming.

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1) The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the Rapture

(see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out.
This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the Second Coming

 

[Nehemiah6]

This Scripture explains that He is coming, but please note this doesn't answer the WHEN:

I already did. There was no mention of the Antichrist in that passage, since it is always IMMINENT. Why are you not satisfied with the explicit words of Christ?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Of course not! Why would I see anything about the antichrist or the Holy Place?

Since you wanted them to be explicitly mentioned, and they were not, should that not be enough? Why do we continue to question the words of Christ in John 14?

 

[Edify]

This is what I've found so far...1Thess. 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Tribulation is all about the judgment on the world & the fallen of the church - wrath. So we're not supposed to be there when it happens.

 

[bluto]

Since you wanted them to be explicitly mentioned, and they were not, should that not be enough? Why do we continue to question the words of Christ in John 14?

I have no idea why you brought up John 14? I suggest you read my #1 post again. My question is simple and to the point. At vs3 the disciples ask Jesus when will the temple be torn down and what is the sign or your coming. and the end of the age/world? Jesus explains all about the things that will happen before His coming and the end of the world from verses 4-14.

Then at vs15 as far as I'm concerned is a "tip off" of His coming. "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand). Jesus then tells them you had better get out of Dodge by fleeing.

Now, at vs 29, Jesus says, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will darken etc. Then at vs30 He says the sign of the Son of Man will appear etc. As far as I'm concerned, this is the second coming, verses 30-31. Since you believe you are going to raptured, please give me the verses as proof that the rapture is before the antichrist appears? And like I also stated the Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus stated. Others here seem to understand my question, why not you?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I'm asking for proof of how you know the so-called rapture of the church is before the antichrist is revealed?

2 Thes 2:7 covers it.

 

[selahsays]

2 Thes 2:7 covers it.

Could you explain how? Thanks.

 

[Romans34]

I already did. There was no mention of the Antichrist in that passage, since it is always IMMINENT. Why are you not satisfied with the explicit words of Christ?

Where in John 14:1-3 do you find IMMINENT? This is an assumption that is made by the pre-trib rapture position. I know. I believed and said that myself for over 30 years until I realized for myself that the Scripture doesn't teach that His return is IMMENENT.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Could you explain how? Thanks.

It's the Holy Spirit/Church that stands against the enemy and the tribulation. When that's taken out, the antichrist and his system can move in.

 

[ewq1938]

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

Do you see anything here about the Antichrist or the Holy Place? This is the primary revelation of the Rapture and the very words of Christ. Enough said.

lol...he speaks of returning and receiving people, and they all stay there which is the Earth. Don't you understand where he ends up when he says, "I will come again"? There is no taking people to heaven in the verse. Pre-tribs misread that verse as they do so many scriptures.

 

[Karlon]

Jesus responds to q question by His disciples at Matthew 24:3. "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying. "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age/world." Jesus then explains from verses 4-14 the things that will be taking place, which by the way are happening in a big way as of the writing of this post.

Jesus then gives what I will call a "tip off" of what to look for at Matthew 24:15, "Therefore (therefore is defined as "for that reason" referring to what was said in the previous verses) when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),"

The Apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 backs up Jesus' statement. "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, vs2, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Vs3, Let no one in any way deceive you, for (or because) it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, vs4, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

In regards to the above the Apostle Paul made the following comments on this issue at 2 Timothy 2:16-18, "But avoid worldly and empt5y chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, vs17, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection (singular) has already taken place, and thus upset the faith of some."

So here is my question? What verse or verses can you provide proving that the so-called rapture of the Church will happen before the antichrist is revealed, standing in the temple/holy place claiming to be God?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

it is very clear in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13-18. add in Romans 5:8,9 & 1st Thessalonians 5:9.

 

[Cameron143]

Where in John 14:1-3 do you find IMMINENT? This is an assumption that is made by the pre-trib rapture position. I know. I believed and said that myself for over 30 years until I realized for myself that the Scripture doesn't teach that His return is IMMENENT.

Two things:
1. Other than Snoopy, coolest avatar ever. Oh, and Magenta's avatar...that was close.
2. How can you spell the same word two different ways in the same post?

 

[bluto]

it is very clear in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13-18. add in Romans 5:8,9 & 1st Thessalonians 5:9.

What's clear? Obviously your telling me these verses prove that the rapture will occur before the antichrist is revealed who will also be standing in the holy place telling everyone that he is God. To that I say, "Horse Hockey." And here are the reasons why? I will use the very verses you quoted me.

Look at Romans 5:8-9, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Vs9, Much more then having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved/delivered from the wrath of God through Him." Now please think! These verses are talking about salvation proper as in getting saved so you "WILL NOT" face the wrath of God.

Now, do you want to know what's even more interesting? You quoting 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Please pay attention to the context. Oh yea, and before I forget this verse is the "go to" verse pretribulationist always go to prove the rapture because God does not destine us to wrath.

Vs1, "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. Vs2, For (or because) you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. Vs3, While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (Escape what?)

Vs4, But you, brethren are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief; (why?) vs5, for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; Vs6, so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. Vs7, For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. Vs8, But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

(Now for the kicker). For (0r because) God has not destined us for wrath, but for OBTAINING SALVATION through our Lord Jesus Christ. , vs10, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." Now I purposefully quoted all these verses to show you the force of what they are teaching.

We are not children of the night because we are saved through Him and according to John 1:4, "In Him was life, AND HE IS THE LIGHT OF MEN." We are not children of wrath because were saved, that is the context. The wrath for them is rejecting Jesus Christ. Please compare 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10. Also 1 Thessalonians 2:16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. Btu WRATH has come upon them to the utmost." One more, Ephesians 2:3. Does all of this make sense?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Romans34]

Two things:
1. Other than Snoopy, coolest avatar ever. Oh, and Magenta's avatar...that was close.
2. How can you spell the same word two different ways in the same post?

1. Thanks!
2. A very good question indeed. I could use some lame excuse that my fingers just don't always obey me, but the reality is I probably wasn't looking at the first word when I typed it (as though I needed to). Will that fly? Also could be I didn't use the Preview.