This came to my attention recently -----is it Faith IN Jesus or Faith OF Jesus

homwardbound · Sep 18, 2024

The only one Son of God in flesh and blood given us to see his done work in trust to Father only. Who did the perfect work needed for anyone in belief to he is risen for them to walk new will do as led over many mistakes made at first. Then see you, I or no one else can do what is done by Son for us to get given the new life offered in God's Spirit and Truth for them to simply love all as Son did going to that cross once for us all Hebrews 10:10
Unless one, anyone settles this in themselves, by God through Son Jesus they are presently and forever forgiven in that last shedding of blood of Son Jesus
the people in any doubt of this cause a mess even unto themselves in selfishness as in Luke 18:9-14 tells me about it.
There is a before the cross (Under Law) even in the New Testament of what Jesus did before the cross in his love walk, in trust to Father to lead only, the Holy Spirit.
Now in the risen Christ is given this to us to be new in humility, pride and quilt leave, thanks to Son for me and everyone else in belief too. Father and Son free us in love and mercy given us, once seen by us we do the very same as is done for us by God in Son to us, at least me
Jesus is One with Father, yet are two as like in a marriage the two become one, and I am not speaking of this physically, this is Spiritually from God for use all to us all by Son. The only one that could willingly die once for us all to give us new life in his risen Life once anyone truly believes between God and themselves eventually see, provided one does not give up, once see in agreement between God and you, then one sees no one, not anyone can ever snatch you out of God's Right arm for you to remain humble in, thank you

Nehemiah6 · Sep 18, 2024

studentoftheword said:

Of course it is our faith in Christ and His perfect finished work on the cross, as well as His glorious resurrection. Jesus Himself said "He that believeth in me..."

It is not the faith "of Christ" for the simple reason that there is no need for Christ to have faith in Himself. So how does a person arrive at saving faith? "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17). The Word of God here is actually the Gospel. See 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. To believe the Gospel is to believe on Christ and what He has done. And all should hear the Gospel, and all should repent and obey the Gospel.

Adino · Sep 18, 2024

homwardbound said:

How is that relevant to what I posted?

??? So we're discussing your personal opinion of a logical necessity? The choice offered in the op's inquiry is an either/or choice - one or the other only - when the the scriptural and logical response should be "The two are not mutually exclusive of one another and the question is, therefore, a false dichotomy."

I find the Robin Smit article flawed but don't want to digress from the opto discuss Smit (especially since Smit is not here to advocate or defend her article). The question of "Is it faith in Christ or faith of Christ?" can be answered without an appeal to the Law. This is particularly germane, and particularly odd, because the Smit article is supposed to be an article pertaining to hermeneutics but it is very bad exegesis to take one verse and think it speaks definitively on a given subject. The Bible has a lot to say about "faith in..." and "faith of..." Simply put, Galatians 2:16 should never have been proof-texted. Everything built on that flaw is, likewise, flawed. The appeal to the Greek was wise but, given the diversity found in our English translations it proves inconclusive and, therefore, a bit of a red herring. The next best would be to examine other similar scriptures NOT a sudden leap from Galatians 2 to Ephesians 4..... especially since Galatians 2 is written about justification and Ephesians 4 is not. No sound hermeneutic asserts or approves of that kind of incorrect exegesis.

What is "it"?

The faith found in Galatians 2:16 is simply and solely couched in justification. Nothing else. Nothing more. Christians screw this up quite often. Even notable teachers in our faith (no pun intended

). Paul's (and James') writings about the Law (mostly) pertain to the Law as a means of achieving righteousness and justification. It is a premise Paul soundly rejects and rejects unequivocally. The rejection, however, is not a rejection of the Law (or Tanakh) as a whole. Paul (and James), soundly rejecting the Law as a means of obtaining righteousness and justification..... nonetheless repeatedly quoted, referenced, and applied the Law to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ. ALL of the NT writers did so. Galatians 2:16 applies to both Jews and Gentiles. Paul couched verse 16 in his admonition of Peter's hypocrisy and need for correction. Gentiles also know they are not justified by the Law, the also know they are justified through faith in/of Christ. It's not a Jew-only thing.

So.... 1) Smits erred, 2) it is a mistake to over-generalize Galatians 2:16 beyond its stated context(s), and 3) wantonly copy-and-paste disparate scriptures together as if they are all written about the exact same matter in the exact same context.

It's also unnecessary because my original point is simple and true: The question the opening post asks is built on a false dichotomy. Faith in Christ cannot be different than the faith of Christ. Can we imagine God gifts a faith to His adopted sons and daughters that is different than His incarnate Son? If that is what is being suggested in this op, or in Post 21 then that requires a justifying explanation. Otherwise, the faith in Christ is one consistent with the faith of Christ.

Magenta · Sep 18, 2024

Adino said:

Galatians 2:16 A man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

studentoftheword · Sep 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

My view
Faith was there in God from the very beginning --God the Father created the World by Speaking His Faith Words -----who is Jesus who is the one who created everything ----Jesus is the Word of Faith -----Faith is already in Him and it was there from the Beginning

Hebrews 11:3

Berean Literal Bible
By faith we understand the universe to have been formed by the word of God, so that the things being seen have not been made from the things being visible.

Your Quote here ----
no need for Christ to have faith in Himself----

I say ------He didn't have to have Faith in Himself ---He is the Author and finisher of Faith ----and He Imparts His Faith to us when we read the Word ---

that is just how I see it

Hebrews 12:2

So in your view these Translations have it Wrong and the others have it right ------

Here is how I see it ----Faith In Christ -----and---- Faith Of Christ ----say different things ---Only one is right ----and the other is not right ----so I guess it come down to the person picking the Scripture they think is right and running with that -----which is fine by me ----

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-16.ht

King James Bible
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because we know that a man is not justified by works of The Written Law, but by the faith of Yeshua The Messiah, we also believe in Yeshua The Messiah, that we should be made right by the faith of The Messiah, and not by the works of The Written Law, because no one is made right by the works of The Written Law.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Young's Literal Translation
having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

Nehemiah6 · Sep 18, 2024

studentoftheword said:

You are little or no recognition to the Gospel for generating saving faith. So please read the entire 10th chapter of Romans.

As to the creation account, those were not "faith" words. They were creative words. And it is by faith that WE understand that the worlds were frame by the Word of God. The creative words mentioned again.

So how is Christ the Author of our faith? By Him giving us the Gospel and being the Gospel Himself. And how is He the Finisher of our faith? By keeping us believing that what He accomplished in His death, burial, and resurrection is what opens the door to God's grace and the gift of eternal life.

Dino246 · Sep 18, 2024

studentoftheword said:

Unfortunately you just engaged in eisegesis. There is nothing whatsoever in the text that speaks of “the faith of Jesus” or “His faith”. I would suggest you take off your preconception glasses and read it again.

fredoheaven · Sep 18, 2024

studentoftheword said:

Faith In -- or Faith Of

This seems important to understand ------this changes the perspective on Faith ------

Most Translations say ---Faith In Jesus Christ

took this from Bible hub ---you can check it out for yourselves ---

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-16.htm

Galatians 2:16

New International Version

know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

New Living Translation

Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”

English Standard Version

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Only a few translations say Faith OF JESUS Christ ------

King James Bible
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because we know that a man is not justified by works of The Written Law, but by the faith of Yeshua The Messiah, we also believe in Yeshua The Messiah, that we should be made right by the faith of The Messiah, and not by the works of The Written Law, because no one is made right by the works of The Written Law.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Young's Literal Translation
having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

So which is it -----is it our faith in Christ -that we strive to obtain --or is it the Faith of Christ that we possess by His Grace and not of any works by us ----

Could some of the translators ---translated this wrongly from the Greek

---it will change the faith role ----if it is Faith OF Jesus ---------it is His Faith we have in us ---it is not our Faith that we work to get

I say ----

If we think that we are suppose to have faith in Jesus ----we are always striving ---working--- to have more Faith ----we say I don't have enough faith yet for this or that ----when it is not about our Faith in Jesus --it is about Jesus Faith that is already there for us to access -----

Mark 4 ---Jesus is asleep when the storm comes and He says -----

“Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

The Greek word for Have is echō (----to have, i.e. to hold

to have (hold) in the hand -----to have i.e. own, posses

They already possessed His Faith they just didn't know it ------they didn't have to work for the Faith ---they possessed already ----faith is a free Gift from God ----we can't work to get God's faith ----and so many are striving to get enough faith --

Interesting Read all --I just posted this section

https://itisfinished.blog/2021/08/10/hermeneutics-faith-in-jesus-or-faith-of-jesus/#:~:text=Ephesians 4:5 tells us,the works of the Law.

The phrase is consistently rendered in English translations as “faith in Jesus Christ.” The Greek, however, says, “Pistis Iesou Christou,” which means the faith of Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ’s faith.

Both of the nouns, faith and Jesus Christ, are genitive possessive. Remember, genitive possession denotes ownership, meaning Jesus owns the faith.

But translating it as “in” makes it sound like we need to put OUR faith IN Jesus, and we miss the importance of understanding that the faith belongs to Jesus — it is His!

Romans 3:22 is an important verse to correctly understand how God’s righteousness comes to us.

Is it by Jesus’ faith or putting our faith in Jesus that we are made righteous?

The NLT (New Living Translation) says, “We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ.” The ESV (English Standard Version) says, “The righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.” And the CEV (Contemporary English Version) says, “He (God) accepts people only because they have faith in Jesus Christ.” That’s only three translations, but MOST translations say something similar. I found only a few that say faith OF Jesus Christ, the KJV, Douay-Rheims Bible, Darby Bible Translation, and Young’s Literal Translation.

Why is an understanding of the words OF or IN critical?

Why is an understanding of the words OF or IN critical?

Because the faith OF Jesus Christ says that it’s a free gift, a FINISHED work!

But faith IN Jesus Christ makes it something we need to do to become righteous or that God ONLY accepts people BECAUSE of their faith in Jesus. And that’s just not true. That makes it about OUR works, instead of His FINISHED works.

Here is an another article on this

https://rtkendallministries.com/the-faith-of-christ

Hi, this might help you understand the phrase "faith of"

https://www.anabaptistwiki.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Faith_of_Jesus_Christ_(in_Galatians)

studentoftheword · Sep 18, 2024

Nehemiah6 said:

Scripture says there is only one Faith -----So who's Faith is it -----that is the Big Question here ----if people want to believe as we have been taught in Church and in most Bibles that it is our Faith in Jesus that saves us then that is fine by me -----

I really don't care what people want to believe ---

But that doesn't help that some scripture is saying ---Faith In Christ and some say Faith OF Christ so the translators are the ones who have made an error in their translation from the Greek to the English ----

My Stance now is that the Faith of Christ is the right one ---and the Faith In Christ is the wrong translation of this ----and that is my Stance on that -----your is different ----

Romans 10 is no exception for me --it is Christ's Faith that saves us not our Faith in Christ that saves us --Salvation came by way of God's Grace ----Grace come through Jesus's faith -----no our faith in Him ----we did nothing to get this faith ----Faith is a gift from God -----it is His Faith that He has gifted to us freely

That is how I view it ----

studentoftheword · Sep 18, 2024

fredoheaven said:

Thanks for the link I will read it ----

studentoftheword · Sep 18, 2024

fredoheaven -----

Read it---- very interesting reading --and informative -Thanks for posting ----- Appreciate it ----

reposting the link ---incase others what to read it ----

https://www.anabaptistwiki.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Faith_of_Jesus_Christ_(in_Galatians)

Genez · Sep 18, 2024

studentoftheword said:

Faith In -- or Faith Of

This seems important to understand ------this changes the perspective on Faith ------

Most Translations say ---Faith In Jesus Christ

took this from Bible hub ---you can check it out for yourselves ---

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-16.htm

Galatians 2:16

New International Version

know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

New Living Translation

Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”

English Standard Version

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Only a few translations say Faith OF JESUS Christ ------

King James Bible
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because we know that a man is not justified by works of The Written Law, but by the faith of Yeshua The Messiah, we also believe in Yeshua The Messiah, that we should be made right by the faith of The Messiah, and not by the works of The Written Law, because no one is made right by the works of The Written Law.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Young's Literal Translation
having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

So which is it -----is it our faith in Christ -that we strive to obtain --or is it the Faith of Christ that we possess by His Grace and not of any works by us ----

Could some of the translators ---translated this wrongly from the Greek

---it will change the faith role ----if it is Faith OF Jesus ---------it is His Faith we have in us ---it is not our Faith that we work to get

I say ----

If we think that we are suppose to have faith in Jesus ----we are always striving ---working--- to have more Faith ----we say I don't have enough faith yet for this or that ----when it is not about our Faith in Jesus --it is about Jesus Faith that is already there for us to access -----

Mark 4 ---Jesus is asleep when the storm comes and He says -----

“Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

The Greek word for Have is echō (----to have, i.e. to hold

to have (hold) in the hand -----to have i.e. own, posses

They already possessed His Faith they just didn't know it ------they didn't have to work for the Faith ---they possessed already ----faith is a free Gift from God ----we can't work to get God's faith ----and so many are striving to get enough faith --

Interesting Read all --I just posted this section

https://itisfinished.blog/2021/08/10/hermeneutics-faith-in-jesus-or-faith-of-jesus/#:~:text=Ephesians 4:5 tells us,the works of the Law.

The phrase is consistently rendered in English translations as “faith in Jesus Christ.” The Greek, however, says, “Pistis Iesou Christou,” which means the faith of Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ’s faith.

Both of the nouns, faith and Jesus Christ, are genitive possessive. Remember, genitive possession denotes ownership, meaning Jesus owns the faith.

But translating it as “in” makes it sound like we need to put OUR faith IN Jesus, and we miss the importance of understanding that the faith belongs to Jesus — it is His!

Romans 3:22 is an important verse to correctly understand how God’s righteousness comes to us.

Is it by Jesus’ faith or putting our faith in Jesus that we are made righteous?

The NLT (New Living Translation) says, “We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ.” The ESV (English Standard Version) says, “The righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.” And the CEV (Contemporary English Version) says, “He (God) accepts people only because they have faith in Jesus Christ.” That’s only three translations, but MOST translations say something similar. I found only a few that say faith OF Jesus Christ, the KJV, Douay-Rheims Bible, Darby Bible Translation, and Young’s Literal Translation.

Why is an understanding of the words OF or IN critical?

Why is an understanding of the words OF or IN critical?

Because the faith OF Jesus Christ says that it’s a free gift, a FINISHED work!

But faith IN Jesus Christ makes it something we need to do to become righteous or that God ONLY accepts people BECAUSE of their faith in Jesus. And that’s just not true. That makes it about OUR works, instead of His FINISHED works.

Here is an another article on this

https://rtkendallministries.com/the-faith-of-christ

Initially.. We were saved by faith in Jesus Christ....

After we are saved?
After we have regeneration?

We are then at that point to become saved from evil by implementing the faith OF Jesus Christ!
The faith that He pioneered and perfected while being as a man, in his overcoming all evil.

Hebrews 12:1-2

Therefore, since we also have such a large cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us lay

aside every weight and the sin that so easily ensnares us. Let us run with endurance the

race that lies before us, keeping our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith,

who for the joy that lay before Him endured a cross and despised the shame and has sat

down at the right hand of God’s throne.

Hebrews 4:15-16

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses,

but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then

with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find

grace to help in time of need.

In all his temptations, He was innovating and pioneering ways of integrity by thinking Truth of God's Word.
Comiling Bible Doctrines as to overcome whatever evil that was attempting to ensnare Him.

In turn... He now (spiritually) gives us His proven faith for us to walk in to share in His victory over evil.

That is why we are first saved by faith in Him

After salvation? Saved by his faith. The faith he perfected for himself and for His Bride.

We are then to become progressively sanctified by overcoming more and more evil by means of His
pioneered faith that He first tested and proved, by imparting it to us by our desire to learn sound doctrine
more and more, while walking in the filling of the Spirit!

grace and peace ......

Dino246 · Sep 18, 2024

John146 said:

Which should result in EVERYONE being saved... but it doesn't, so either Jesus' faith is insufficient, or your interpretation is incorrect.

Magenta · Sep 18, 2024

studentoftheword said:

fredoheaven -----

Read it---- very interesting reading --and informative -Thanks for posting ----- Appreciate it ----

reposting the link ---incase others what to read it ----

https://www.anabaptistwiki.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Faith_of_Jesus_Christ_(in_Galatians)

@fredoheaven

Dino246 · Sep 18, 2024

studentoftheword said:

It is also possible (and even likely) that the issue is not one of erroneous translation, but of erroneous assumption.

Readers of the KJV typically (and understandably) assume that words and phrases mean the same today as they did in 1611, despite glaring examples to the contrary ("Suffer the children to come unto Me"). While I would have to do a fair bit of research to confirm it, and don't have the resources at hand, I suspect that "faith of Jesus Christ" from 1611 means exactly what "faith in Jesus Christ" means today. If I'm correct, that would mean that there is no contradiction at all, and the problem is in the modern interpretation of "of".

John146 · Sep 18, 2024

Dino246 said:

The faith of Christ is sufficient. Our faith is not. Everyone is not saved because everyone has not believed. The evidence of Christ's faith is his obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

John146 · Sep 18, 2024

Dino246 said:

What? We have believed in Jesus Christ in order to be justified by faith in Christ. Makes no sense...

ESV Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Cameron143 · Sep 18, 2024

John146 said:

It's a better translation to say we believe not in Christ, but into Christ.

Dino246 · Sep 18, 2024

John146 said:

Are we justified by the works of the law? No. Are we justified by faith in Christ? Yes.

We believe in order to be justified. While I agree that the ESV wording is awkward, it's consistent with the rest of Scripture.

Dino246 · Sep 18, 2024

John146 said:

Applying your reasoning, it is our belief in Christ, and not "the faith of Christ", that results in justification.

This came to my attention recently -----is it Faith IN Jesus or Faith OF Jesus

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