There will be no Rapture!!!

[TheDivineWatermark]

13 in order that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

αμην = Angels.

That matches Matthew 24 to a T!

No it doesn't. Matthew 24's passage is about those who'd been judicially SCATTERED now being gathered from thence TO ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH ("to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"); none of that is true of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/us.



Again, Matthew 24:29-31 = Isaiah 27:9,12-13 which correlates with Romans 11:27 (about Israel's FUTURE) and Daniel 9:24's time-prophecy (about Israel... and "thy [Daniel's] holy city")...




____________

1Th4:17 / 3:13 IS about the Church which is His body:

13 in order that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before [emprosthen G1715 - 'in the presence of'] our God and Father, at [/in] the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

... similar wording as 1Th2:19 [G1715], note!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No it doesn't. Matthew 24's passage is about those who'd been judicially SCATTERED now being gathered from thence TO ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH ("to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"); none of that is true of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/us.



Again, Matthew 24:29-31 = Isaiah 27:9,12-13 which correlates with Romans 11:27 (about Israel's FUTURE) and Daniel 9:24's time-prophecy (about Israel... and "thy [Daniel's] holy city")...




____________

1Th4:17 / 3:13 IS about the Church which is His body:

... similar wording as 1Th2:19 [G1715], note!

19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing, are not even you before our Lord Jesus at his coming?

You are high!

Holy Ones = Angels
Matthew 24 Jesus said Son of Man comes with His Angels

and 1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing, are not even you before our Lord Jesus at his coming?

^ That says nothing about anyone coming with Jesus. Just talks about Jesus' coming.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1Th 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints [G40].



Rom 16:15
Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints [G40] which are with them.

[I suppose those were "angels" too, in this latter text, lol]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

and 1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing, are not even you before our Lord Jesus at his coming?

^ That says nothing about anyone coming with Jesus. Just talks about Jesus' coming.

I was pointing out the "IN THE PRESENCE OF [G1715]" word (in both passages... but which you want to ignore in 3:13 [1Th4:17's CONTEXT]).




["before [G1715] our Lord Jesus in His coming/parousia" MEANS "IN HIS PRESENCE"]

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I was pointing out the "IN THE PRESENCE OF [G1715]" word (in both passages... but which you want to ignore in 3:13 [1Th4:17's CONTEXT]).




["before [G1715] our Lord Jesus in His coming/parousia" MEANS "IN HIS PRESENCE"]

You are adding words not even there.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Why are trying to make the presence of God into a Body of Believers?
Angels are in His Presence when He comes.
And why are you using the Strongs which is specifically made only for the kjv when it's modern day Greek not Koine?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are adding words not even there.

You're missing my point.

Where 2:19 says "BEFORE [G1715] our Lord Jesus Christ in the coming / parousia of Him/Jesus," THIS MEANS we will be "IN HIS PRESENCE" (IN JESUS' PRESENCE);

Where 3:13 says "[your...] ... BEFORE [G1715] the God and Father of us in the coming / parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with / accompanied-with all the saints [or, even 'angels' (makes no difference here!)] of Him"... THIS MEANS "IN HIS PRESENCE"... IN GOD'S PRESENCE... (you... blameless)





[and this is what Rev4-5 is showing (UP THERE)... when the 24 elders are shown to sing "a NEW song" ; not to mention, "that where I am, there ye may be also" - Jn14:3b-4... and the wording "SO shall we ever be WITH [G4862 -UNIONed-with] the Lord"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Col3:4 - "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [to go along with that last verse I posted] Many people mistakenly believe that where Rev19:7 says, "the marriage CAME" and "His Bride/Wife PREPARED," that this means that it only just now took place at the Rev19 time-slot / His Second Coming to the earth point in time; but this is not the case. The text is set in contradistinction to the (v.9) "INVITATION" (to the MK age / wedding FEAST) having taken place all throughout the 7 Trib yrs ON THE EARTH ("having been INVITED" [not pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [singular]"]); the text is not making the point either, that the wedding FEAST has taken place by this point, NO!




I saw someone elsewhere post this [faulty] idea:

[quoting]

“If pretribulationists are right, we would expect the wedding and the feast to commence at the beginning of the tribulation, not after the tribulation as Revelation 19 plainly indicates. If Jesus was referring to heaven as the seven years in the “Chuppah” in John 14:1-3, the bride should have “made herself ready” before the pretribulation rapture (around Rev. 4). And the “marriage of the Lamb” should have occurred at the beginning of the tribulation, and not at its extreme end. The pretribulation scenario has Jesus being intimate with the Bride in the “Chuppah” for seven years before Revelation 19 indicates the wedding occurs!”

[end quoting; underline mine]



This person has CONFLATED the MARRIAGE with that of the wedding FEAST / SUPPER, and has incorrectly ASSUMED that "the MARRIAGE" is ONLY JUST NOW HAPPENING at the Rev19 time-slot. NO!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You're missing my point.

Where 2:19 says "BEFORE [G1715] our Lord Jesus Christ in the coming / parousia of Him/Jesus," THIS MEANS we will be "IN HIS PRESENCE" (IN JESUS' PRESENCE);

Where 3:13 says "[your...] ... BEFORE [G1715] the God and Father of us in the coming / parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with / accompanied-with all the saints [or, even 'angels' (makes no difference here!)] of Him"... THIS MEANS "IN HIS PRESENCE"... IN GOD'S PRESENCE... (you... blameless)





[and this is what Rev4-5 is showing (UP THERE)... when the 24 elders are shown to sing "a NEW song" ; not to mention, "that where I am, there ye may be also" - Jn14:3b-4... and the wording "SO shall we ever be WITH [G4862 -UNIONed-with] the Lord"]

I understand what you are trying to input but show me the verse that says after we're gathered we go to Heaven?

Because we only go to the air then in a twinkling of an eye changed and go back down.

I researched this Angela that the other poster mentioned and She knows Her Greek.

She went to actual Bible University and sat under an actual Theologian.

I agree with Her.

So to convince me present the verse that claims we go past just being in the clouds or in the air but directly to Heaven.

Because we are in Jesus PRESENCE in the clouds and air.

And we return for Armageddon.

So show me the verse that says we go to Heaven because that is what pre-trib theology is about?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because we only go to the air then in a twinkling of an eye changed and go back down.

This (in the bold) is only an ASSUMPTION (if you're saying "immediately we go back down"). And I'm saying this because of what 3:13a (its CONTEXT) is saying (not even counting v.13b, necessarily).




[I agree we return WITH Him... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (Lk12:36-37,38,40 and its parallel)... THEN "the meal [G347]"!! (aka the MK age / wedding FEAST)]




Col3:4 - "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
What about Daniel's... ?

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." - Daniel 7:13

Good question but it could be same reference and it matches Matthew 24:30

Wait. Are you saying the Daniel 7:13 passage is showing Jesus coming "with clouds" while coming UP, or while coming DOWN (to the earth)?


Because, in Matthew 24:30, He's coming DOWN (to the earth)






[and, if I may ask... who/what do you believe is the "they" of this Dan7:13 verse?]

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

This (in the bold) is only an ASSUMPTION (if you're saying "immediately we go back down"). And I'm saying this because of what 3:13a (its CONTEXT) is saying (not even counting v.13b, necessarily).




[I agree we return WITH Him... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (Lk12:36-37,38,40 and its parallel)... THEN "the meal [G347]"!! (aka the MK age / wedding FEAST)]




Col3:4 - "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

We are changed as we are gathered in a twinkling of an eye so we are in glory.

Present your verse that shows all the way to Heaven.

You see, I was taught the Hebrew so I know you cannot fool me there.

Angela was taught the Greek so I am using her knowledge and so far you haven't proved we go to Heaven yet.

I know we go to the clouds and the air.

Show me Heaven in those verses?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Wait. Are you saying the Daniel 7:13 passage is showing Jesus coming "with clouds" while coming UP, or while coming DOWN (to the earth)?






[and, if I may ask... who/what do you believe is the "they" of this Dan7:13 verse?]

From His Resurrection where He met the Father and Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom ...matches Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Interesting that Daniel 7:13 ("IN THE NIGHT visions") is SET in the CONTEXT of the [far-]future time period in which the antichrist (see vv.20b,21 [comp. Rev13:5-7], v.25c "and they shall be given into his hand until...") will exist on the earth doing all he is slated to do during those 7 years (the Trib).




____________

Back to that other thought:

[I agree we return WITH Him... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (Lk12:36-37,38,40 and its parallel)... THEN "the meal [G347]"!! (aka the MK age / wedding FEAST)]




Col3:4 - "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] him in glory."


[these two passages ^ agree... and also correspond to the distinctions between Rev19:7 [^] and 19:9!]

 

[Musicmaster]

Paul revealed to those alive they would see their dead loved ones again is all he did.

To make what he said into a secret rapture is the same as taking Matthew 28:19 and Baptizing in the name of buffalos.

How do the Jews get from Earth to Heaven?

They are Raptured.

Wait a minute...please stop speaking in generalities and quote in here what text you're talking about. Let's be specific and consistent.

MM

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because we only go to the air then in a twinkling of an eye changed and go back down.

I researched this Angela that the other poster mentioned and She knows Her Greek.

She went to actual Bible University and sat under an actual Theologian.

I agree with Her.

The Greek word "G529 - apantesis" is used in the LXX / Septuagint something like 34 times.




The following verse is one such time... (show me where THIS WORD *means* [both] "to meet AND RETURN," like she says):


"21 When David came to the two hundred men who had been too exhausted to follow him from the Brook of Besor, they came out to meet him and the troops with him. As David approached the men, he greeted them," - 1 Samuel 30:21

-- https://biblehub.com/bsb/1_samuel/30.htm




There is NO sense of "to meet AND RETURN" being conveyed in this text, just "to meet"... that's it!






The CONTEXT (where used) would determine the WHERE NEXT of things, not simply this word alone (as though this word itself carries the additional idea of also RETURNing... it doesn't).










Here's the LIST of those 34x this Greek word is used in the LXX -

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g529/kjv/lxx/0-1/

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

That they made movies doesn't prove anything against any part of that not being the truth for the future. Any of us Israelites living in Jerusalem and the surrounding region who flee into the mountains will be cared for by Yah for the last half of the tribulation. All others will be at the mercy of the wrath of the Lamb and the ensuing persecutions. There is not one promise made that the Gentile believers will be protected, contrary to the claims of some.

MM

In 66AD the roman army penetrated the walls of jerusalem and just as their victory seemed certain, Cestius Gallus, the roman legate of syria ordered retreat of the twelfth legion leaving the Judeans to assume God had delivered them however…

Christians living in Jerusalem and Judea, did not share in any rejoicing. They recalled what Jesus Christ had foretold: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her.”—Luke 21:20, 21.

Traditional sources indicate that the Christians heeded Jesus’ prophetic command and forsook Jerusalem and Judea at that time. Ecclesiastical historian Eusebius of the third and fourth centuries C.E. writes: “The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella.” Epiphanius of the same general period states that ‘the Christians who dwelt in Jerusalem, being forewarned by Christ of the approaching siege, removed to Pella.’

The land that was promised to Abraham as it stands today is occupied by the children of Esau and as is prophecied in Obidiah and Malachi , the land will be cleansed with fire and brimstone, Jesus Christ upon slaying the remnant of Edom ; will gather the house of israel and the house of judah to himself returning them to the land that is rightfully theirs to rule over the nations.

Many prophecies i’ve realized seemingly have partial fulfillment leaving a future fulfillment according to the will of the Father, there is room for discussion concerning how prophecy may unfold but there are also certain prophecies that can not be twisted by the will of man.

Edom is especially set for destruction as know from the womb Yahweh declared “jacob i have loved, esau i have hated “ and the saga is foretold in the prophets until the end which i believe we are at the precipice.

Ishmael as well, the islamic nations of the world, the “mixed multitudes (arabs)” will also be decimated and every nation that stands against the King of Kings will be slayed

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @MikeIsraelite72 ,

The Luke 21:12-24a passage (to which you refer) was indeed fulfilled in the events surrounding 70ad... "BEFORE ALL" of the beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 had just spelled out;


However, Matthew 24:4-8 STARTS OUT with the beginning of birth pangs (which ARE the Seals in the far-future "IN QUICKNESS" time period leading up to His RETURN to the earth); and Matthew 24:4-8's BEGINNING of birth pangs" is THEN IS FOLLOWED BY what is spelled out NEXT in that text, verses 9-14 and vv.15-21 (including that DISTINCT "SEE-then-FLEE" instruction!), etc etc...




IOW, there are TWO DISTINCT "SEE-then-FLEE" points in the overall chronology:

1) the one in 70ad (Lk21:23,20) was "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs (v.12 informs);

2) the one that's future (Matt24:15,21) FOLLOWS the beginning of birth pangs


[they CANNOT be the SAME!]



And they have COMPLETELY OPPOSITE outcomes / ends

 

[Iconoclast]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

The rapture happens on the last day