You're claiming no rapture verses, but you posted the passage when the Lord descends and catches his body up in the clouds.
There will be no Rapture!!!
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You're claiming no rapture verses, but you posted the passage when the Lord descends and catches his body up in the clouds.
Well, in my post I never mentioned "the jewish wedding"... I only referred to the wording as found in Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel,) where the TEXT ITSELF SAYS, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN "the MEAL [G347; used also in Mt8:11]"
... and then I asked, WHY DOES IT SAY THIS?
= )
I propose to you that,
1) the "BUT"-conjunction is CONNECTING what v.22b HAD JUST SAID (re: the "FUTURE [tense]" SHALL BE MADE ALIVE--that is, those who are "IN CHRIST" [i.e. BELIEVERS THEMSELVES, here in this verse ("firstfruit Christ"--NO definite article 'the')... not speaking of Christ Himself here, of Whom v.20 had already spoken, re: Resurrection]); and
2) search out my posts explaining the DISTINCTION between the Greek words Paul uses (in vv.23 here and 24):
--"EPeita" (v.23 here; translated "afterward" in the kjv; but meaning, "UPON-then" [similar to our English wording "there-upon"])
-- and "eita" (v.24a "THEN the end"; a SEQUENCE-word ONLY, with NO TIME-ELEMENT attached to it)
And I'm pointing out what you seem to have overlooked in this particular passage (grammar-wise). = )
You're claiming no rapture verses, but you posted the passage when the Lord descends and catches his body up in the clouds.
Yeah, but he is suggesting that the "alive AND REMAIN" means "remain/s TO THE END OF THE TRIB YRS" time-slot (but it does not mean that--it is his pre-supposition [of a POST-trib Rapture event] that demands such a meaning
).[I believe people often MISS the fact that 1Th4:13-17 is in the CONTEXT OF 1Th3:13--the "destination-location" we'll be TAKEN TO, immediately upon "our Rapture" event]
[well, first of all... not ALL of the people who will come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" when they find themselves IN the Trib yrs will [100% of them] BE MARTYRED; no, SOME will survive CLEAR TO THE END, and will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies--For example: Dan12:12 "BLESSED is he that WAITETH and COMETH TO the 1335 days"... which corresponds with about 8 or so other "BLESSED" verses speaking to this SAME matter!]
But to your main point (that Scripture supposedly "never talks about" this), I believe you are mistaken on that notion:
--Paul, in his TWO CHPTS in 2Th (chpts 1 & 2), in two BOOKENDED comments, refers to the TWO [OPPOSITE] "beliefs" people WILL BE coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event (what 2:1 speaks of as "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM")--ONE of those "beliefs" being that "God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion SO THAT THEY should BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" [!!]
...I'm going to let you percolate on that for a good while... (instead of spelling it out for you, right now);
--I'll just say one other thing on this point; whenever Scripture uses the [related] terms "the Day of the Lord" (as in 2:2) and "IN THAT DAY" in the SAME CONTEXTS (as they are used here), they always refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD (when used together / in same contexts, throughout Scripture);
Not so! Lk21:36 (not being a "rapture" passage, as many suppose) is precisely "directions" for those IN the Trib so as to "[actively] FLEE-OUT-OF" each and every thing coming upon the earth (IN THE TRIB YRS) and to stand before "the Son of man" (His Second Coming TO THE EARTH designation)
I already supplied the Lk12 passage re: "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (not to mention the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages I mentioned, like Dan12:12!)... but there are TONS MORE PASSAGES speaking to this SAME POINT (i.e. His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, Rev19);
another is the "Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah27:9,12-13" correlating-passages (ALSO NOT "our Rapture"!!) I could point out an abundant number of passages, but I'd rather see a person search these things out for themselves... hardly anyone ever accepts things just because someone "says so"... So I EXPECT people to search it out and see whether these things be so!
Yeah, but he is suggesting that the "alive AND REMAIN" means "remain/s TO THE END OF THE TRIB YRS" time-slot (but it does not mean that--it is his pre-supposition [of a POST-trib Rapture event] that demands such a meaning
[I believe people often MISS the fact that 1Th4:13-17 is in the CONTEXT OF 1Th3:13--the "destination-location" we'll be TAKEN TO, immediately upon "our Rapture" event]
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
God's Wrath is poured out on Sinners now and you're not effected by any of it.
Tossing and turning...I guess you have never been in a boat during a real storm to understand all of the shaking, bouncing around, drama they would have endured riding swells and surviving massive currents. It was a tribulation for them.
Nowhere in Revelation is the Church mentioned as Raptured. Only the 7 Churches John is to fix is mentioned and they have nothing to do with Revelation.
Two things:
CONSIDER -
1) "the one restraining at present will restrain UNTIL out of the midst he become [/come to be], AND THEN [kai tote]..." (2Th2:7-8a) IS VERY SIMILAR LANGUAGE to that of Lam2:3-4 "he hath DRAWN BACK [/withdrawn] his right hand FROM BEFORE THE ENEMY [i.e LIFTING his restraint]" (essentially saying to the enemy, "have at 'em!").
This is what Jesus Himself (UP THERE) will be DOING when He will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6) by means of His opening SEAL #1 (at the START of the "in quickness [noun]" time-period we commonly call the 7-yr Trib), AKA the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 / Matt24:4-Mk13:5 "tis - G5100 - 'A CERTAIN ONE' (bringing deception)]"); and
2)
Literal Standard Version
Because you kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you from the hour of the trial that is about to come on all the world, to try those dwelling on the earth.
Berean Literal Bible
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
Young's Literal Translation
'Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
Smith's Literal Translation
For thou didst keep the word of my patience, and I will keep thee from the hour of temptation, about to come upon the whole habitable globe, to try them dwelling upon the earth.
Literal Emphasis Translation
Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you from out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world to try those residing upon the earth.
King James Bible
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
A Faithful Version
Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you from the time of temptation which is about to come upon the whole world to try those who dwell on the earth.
English Revised Version
Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Webster's Bible Translation
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Geneva Bible of 1587
Because thou hast kept the woorde of my patience, therefore I wil deliuer thee from the houre of tentation, which will come vpon all the world, to trie them that dwell vpon the earth.
(I'm convinced not many grasp what the words in BOLD refer to--as it pertains to the present Subject under discussion)
Sure (
) , if you want to IGNORE (what I'd put in My Post #1862):
The Restrainer won't be leaving until the 2 Witnesses are finished. They are here for the entire first half of Tribulation. It's why I believe Pre-Wrath because when the Restrainer leaves all Hell will break loose.
You skipped over the descriptor for the tribulation. Distracting away from that over to this current age before the tribulation is not at all a comparison:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The entire seven years is tribulation, which becomes progressively worse going into the second half, yes, but about 2 Billion still die on the earth in the first four seals, with just as many dying in the second half designated as "great tribulation."
NEVER has that level of wrath been poured out onto the earth by the Lord Himself since the flood. So, tribulation at the hands of men verses tribulation at the hands of the Lord at the opening of the first seal at the beginning of that 70th heptad, it's no comparison.
MM
It can also be said that nowhere is the Church even mentioned as being on this earth throughout the entirety of the tribulation from chapters 6 through 21, although "saints" are mentioned as being on this earth all the way to the very end of the tribulation, but NOT the Church. Those who claim that the saints ARE the Church are going to have to switch over to be post-tribulation, because saints, like I said, are mentioned as being in the trbulation to the utter end of that horror.
So, if you're going to build your case upon the lack of mention tactic, then you're creating more problems that you're solving.
So, are you NOW a post-tribber?
MM
How do you know they were suffering that greatly? Yes, there obviously would have been some movement, but to go to the extreme of a tribulation? Come on! You have no basis for knowing anything about what they experienced or didn't experience! None of us can say for sure.
MM
I disagree that THEIR "1260 days" is contained in "the first half"...
I am convinced that MID-trib takes place a the "FIFTH Trumpet / 1st WOE unto the earth"... but the "2W" do not ascend up to Heaven (at the end of their 1260 days) until the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" is completed... Therefore their "1260 days" STRADDLES the two halves (albeit somewhat lopsidedly, not equally).
Again, Paul addresses the "WHEN" of the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" (i.e the 7-yr / TRIB portion) when he says it will arrive "EXACTLY LIKE [hosper] the INITIAL "birth PANG" (Jesus spoke of those!) that comes upon a woman (ITh5:1-3)... NOT well-after those have commenced!
(The FIRST "birth PANG [singular]" IS "SEAL #1". That means, the rider on the wht horse WITH A "BOW" [often meaning "DECEPTION" in Scripture] CORRESPONDS with the FIRST "BIRTH PANG" JESUS MENTIONED: "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100]" bringing deception Mt24:4/Mk13:5! Same person that 2Th2:4a / Dan11:36 speaks to!! [...and 2Th2:8a/9a/Dan9:27a,26b/1Jn2:18/etc... and who Irenaeus adds: Jn5:43, with which I agree]).
That PERSON ^ *IS* the judgment BEING UNLEASHED!
[and no, I do not agree that "peace" will CHARACTERIZE the entire FIRST HALF; Seal #2 peace is taken from the earth (the Seal 2 "WARS"), and that is EARLY IN THE TRIB!]
Gospel of John we read that Jesus knew His HOUR would come and within 24 hours He was betrayed, Tried, Crucified, Buried.
We are told we will escape our HOUR of Temptation.
Our Hour of Temptation (24 hours) doesn't take place until the revelation of the AC and War on the Saints.
Our HOUR and Jesus HOUR in the Greek equal same time length.
No ONE is tempted until Mid-Tribulation.
Pre-Wrath because of:
Gospel of John we read that Jesus knew His HOUR would come and within 24 hours He was betrayed, Tried, Crucified, Buried.
We are told we will escape our HOUR of Temptation.
Our Hour of Temptation (24 hours) doesn't take place until the revelation of the AC and War on the Saints.
Our HOUR and Jesus HOUR in the Greek equal same time length.
No ONE is tempted until Mid-Tribulation.
The Death of humanity would have ended quickly but Noah still rode the through the torrential rain 40 days. Life ended in at worse 1 to 5 days but Noah had to endure the storm for 40 days before then waiting for the water to evaporate.
The 144k follow the the Death and resurrection of the 2 Witnesses and the 144k are mentioned throughout 2nd half of Tribulation. That only leaves first half for the 2 Witnesses to be here for 3 1/2 years.
You truly have to ignore these truths to commit to your reasoning.