There will be no Rapture!!!

[The_Watchers_2017]

This seems to argue that the Church is still in the world during the Tribulation. Am I correct?

it coincides with the account Irenaeus, who was Disciple of Polycarp, who was Disciple of the Apostle John, who was Disciple of Jesus.

According to Irenaeus, the CHURCH, will be here when the AC is Revealed, and will be here when the MARK of the Beast is being enforced.
According to Irenaeus [Polycarp-Apostle John-JESUS], this is when Jesus returns and Gathers us like Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.
Which oddly enough, PAUL, claims Jesus instructed Paul what to write, preach, etc.
Which means, ALL accounts here [Irenaeus-Polycarp-Apostle John-Apostle Paul], are coming from the SAME SOURCE, JESUS!

 

[Musicmaster]

it coincides with the account Irenaeus, who was Disciple of Polycarp, who was Disciple of the Apostle John, who was Disciple of Jesus.

According to Irenaeus, the CHURCH, will be here when the AC is Revealed, and will be here when the MARK of the Beast is being enforced.
According to Irenaeus [Polycarp-Apostle John-JESUS], this is when Jesus returns and Gathers us like Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.
Which oddly enough, PAUL, claims Jesus instructed Paul what to write, preach, etc.
Which means, ALL accounts here [Irenaeus-Polycarp-Apostle John-Apostle Paul], are coming from the SAME SOURCE, JESUS!

Yes, and that's still a departure away from what many in the first century Church believed in the time of the apostles, and soon afterward. There's no surprise in the fact that some, if not most, of the ante-Nicene fathers departed from the historic beliefs of the first century church. Anti-Semitic sentiments had already crept into the thinking of the religious at very early stages, with Augustine not being an exception, and many others. As an Israelite, I'm fairly well acquainted with being on the brunt end of anti-Semitism.

MM

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Yes, and that's still a departure away from what many in the first century Church believed in the time of the apostles, and soon afterward. There's no surprise in the fact that some, if not most, of the ante-Nicene fathers departed from the historic beliefs of the first century church. Anti-Semitic sentiments had already crept into the thinking of the religious at very early stages, with Augustine not being an exception, and many others. As an Israelite, I'm fairly well acquainted with being on the brunt end of anti-Semitism.

MM

I am from a Sephardic Family, myself.
I tell those, in my family, who deny Christ, it won't be long until the Gentile Reign [Paul's Words (Jesus' Words)] ends and then it opens the way for them.

Obviously, I encourage them to believe NOW, not wait for the AC to deceive them and make War against them.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Yes, and that's still a departure away from what many in the first century Church believed in the time of the apostles, and soon afterward.

When we look at Papias, Hippo, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Polycarp, ALL DISCIPLES of the Apostle John, who was Disciple of Jesus, they are First Century and ALL remain the same as Irenaeus account.

So, if anyone else disagrees, they [[DID NOT]] get their info from the Apostles of Jesus!

Clearly, they did not get it from Paul, Peter, John, any of them, especially when Paul, flat out writes: AFTER AC is Revealed, Jesus Returns, WE are Gathered to Him.

 

[Musicmaster]

When we look at Papias, Hippo, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Polycarp, ALL DISCIPLES of the Apostle John, who was Disciple of Jesus, they are First Century and ALL remain the same as Irenaeus account.

So, if anyone else disagrees, they [[DID NOT]] get their info from the Apostles of Jesus!

Clearly, they did not get it from Paul, Peter, John, any of them, especially when Paul, flat out writes: AFTER AC is Revealed, Jesus Returns, WE are Gathered to Him.

I'm somewhat surprised at the level of timing extreme for the literal that you have taken on this, but that's ok. This is not a foundational, doctrinal tenet within the Bible.

MM

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

most of Paul's own Disciples like Timothy and the other 8 mentioned have accounts in the Bible, but not outside of the Bible, and their accounts have nothing to do with End Time Tribulation.

But the Apostle John, he has 5 who ALL give account.

So whoever the CATHOLICS place as Church Fathers, outside of the Apostle's own Disciples, those people HAVE NO direct relationship to the Apostles whatsoever at all.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I think only one [[TRUE]] Catholic Church Father is before 100 AD, but he had NO CONTACT with John, who was the ONLY APOSTLE left ALIVE by then.

Paul, the Other Apostles [that were Disciples of Jesus], + Paul's Disciples, were mostly all DEAD before 70 AD.

That leaves John and his Disciples all the way into at least 110 AD.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Luke and Mark [Disciple of Peter] were all Dead + James and Jude [half brothers of Jesus].


so, whatever accounts COME AFTER 135-150 AD [Irenaeus], they are not direct/person to person contact [first hand knowledge] what the Apostles of Jesus preached concerning when Jesus' Returns and Gathers us.

 

[selahsays]

Paul does not want the brethren to be ignorant concerning the bodily resurrection. Those who have died will be caught up with them along with those who are alive and remain. It is the gathering up of all things in Christ.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The subject

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

basically, what i am saying here, everything AFTER the Irenaeus Account [when Jesus Returns and we are Gathered to Him], is CATHOLIC DOGMA, and their own people from the Catholic Church they deemed as Church Fathers.

And to the Accounts of those Catholics, I would not accept that if my life depended upon it.

here's an example of Catholic Church Fathers: Tertullian:

by ALL accounts, the only thing we take from what Tertullian wrote was about the Trinity.

So, everything else he wrote we don't care about. why? Catholic Dogma.

and, if we did not believe in the Trinity, then Tertullian, is a waste of time to even study about.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

and, if we did not believe in the Trinity, then Tertullian, is a waste of time to even study about.

that is, unless we rejoice he LEFT the Catholic baloney and joined a group of Tongue Speakers.

Well, that is, if you are a continuist and not a cessationist.

but, in the 300 books Tertullian wrote about, Catholic Dogma, we only care about the possibility of 2 topics he mentions or is involved with.


Like I said, WE DO HAVE FIRST HAND ACCOUNT from Irenaeus that Jesus Returns after the AC is Revealed!

And that is as TRUTHFUL, containing the Absolute Truth, as it gets. And that matches Paul in 2nd Thessalonians. That is good enough for me and the Holy Spirit confirming it within me.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

i can go through them all, but even Justin Martyr, we only use a couple things he claims. One being the 70 AD account on Jerusalem [and he WASN't even an eye witness - so his account is at best 2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th hand accounts] [he was not even born until 100 AD, some 30 years AFTER 70 AD destruction] [so, his account is at least 50 years removed] and the other being about some specific Scripture he confirms.

other than that, Justin Martyr ain't no Church Father, but he is according to the RCC, and who are they in matters that actually count?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

i won't go through them all, but, you clearly see after Irenaeus [FIRST HAND/PERON to PERSON Account], ALL other accounts are at least 2nd to 3rd hand [at best] when it comes to when Jesus Returns, I don't want 2nd or 3rd hand Accounts, I want the FIRST HAND /Person to Person Account.

 

[selahsays]

Paul does not want the brethren to be ignorant concerning the bodily resurrection. Those who have died will be caught up with them along with those who are alive and remain. It is the gathering up of all things in Christ.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep (died), lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

The subject is: What happens when we die? This verse has absolutely nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. Paul is simply saying not to grieve for those who have passed away. He’s trying to convey to them that when you die, life’s not over. In other words, all Christians are with the Father, so be hopeful instead of sorrowful!

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

- Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Catholic Church, says it was founded on Peter, the first Pope:
this would be just before, same time, or not long after [Peter's Death (which is what I believe)] [dead people can't call you out as liars when you lie about them].
that means, according to RCC Dogma, the RCC would have existed in the time of the Apostle John.
Yet, John, never mentions them in I-II-III John [80-92 AD], or Revelation [96 AD]
why?
They did not exist or if they did, John, did not recognize them as legit Followers of God.


So, why would we accept what the RCC chooses as Church Fathers?

John, never accepted them, nor did his Disciples.

therefore, I believe John's Disciple's Version of when Jesus Returns over the RCC DOGMATIC Church Father's accounts.

 

[John146]

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep (died), lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

The subject is: What happens when we die? This verse has absolutely nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. Paul is simply saying not to grieve for those who have passed away. He’s trying to convey to them that when you die, life’s not over. In other words, all Christians are with the Father, so be hopeful instead of sorrowful!

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

- Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

Being caught up is the rapture. All things gathered in Christ in the air, not on earth.

The resurrection of the body of Christ occurs at the rapture. The dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Catholic Church, says it was founded on Peter, the first Pope:
this would be just before, same time, or not long after [Peter's Death (which is what I believe)] [dead people can't call you out as liars when you lie about them].
that means, according to RCC Dogma, the RCC would have existed in the time of the Apostle John.
Yet, John, never mentions them in I-II-III John [80-92 AD], or Revelation [96 AD]
why?
They did not exist or if they did, John, did not recognize them as legit Followers of God.


So, why would we accept what the RCC chooses as Church Fathers?

John, never accepted them, nor did his Disciples.

therefore, I believe John's Disciple's Version of when Jesus Returns over the RCC DOGMATIC Church Father's accounts.

oddly enough, in John I-II-III, he does mention many antichrists [the Pope, and all Popes, call himself/themselves antichrist] and mentions don't be deceived by false teachers.

I wonder if any of this was aimed at the RCC?

 

[cv5]

I believe the body of Christ will be on earth for the first part of Daniel's week

Except for the fact that the terms "Church" and "Christian" are never spoken from Rev 6 thru 18.

We are gone gone gone before ANY Rev 6 events.

Mid-trib is another unprovable hypothesis, and should you peruse my last number of posts you would see how.

 

[selahsays]

Being caught up is the rapture. All things gathered in Christ in the air, not on earth.

The resurrection of the body of Christ occurs at the rapture. The dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Tell me. Who are the dead in Christ?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Except for the fact that the terms "Church" and "Christian" are never spoken from Rev 6 thru 18.

We are gone gone gone before ANY Rev 6 events.

Mid-trib is another unprovable hypothesis, and should you peruse my last number of posts you would see how.

Nowhere does the Bible say the Church escapes Tribulation, it says it escaped Wrath.

Do you think what the Apostle John taught to his Disciples, was incorrect, about the Church will be here when the AC is revealed and the MOB begins and then Jesus Returns and we are gathered before the beheading starts?

because, I think the Apostle John, makes your views look like a fool, personally.