I assumed you were referring to Israel as the wife, and the church as the bride and I was alluding to the introduction of Romans 7 wherein the context speaks to the release from the Law.
There will be no Rapture!!!
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I assumed you were referring to Israel as the wife, and the church as the bride and I was alluding to the introduction of Romans 7 wherein the context speaks to the release from the Law.
i am just baffled at the ILLOGIC surrounding this False Doctrine of Pre-Trib Rapture.
They are literally making up STUPID KINDS of LIES.
The only way what Nehemiah said can be true, is if we KNOW when Tribulation begins.
But sense it is IMPOSSIBLE for any Human Being, Saved or Not, to know when Tribulation begins, to create such a LIE shows theres really no limits pre-tribbers will go to make their MYTH true
so to the pre-tribbers, or better known as the illogical fibbers, SHOW ME THE VERSE ABOUT THE SECRET COMING OF JESUS?
They are literally making up STUPID KINDS of LIES.
The only way what Nehemiah said can be true, is if we KNOW when Tribulation begins.
But sense it is IMPOSSIBLE for any Human Being, Saved or Not, to know when Tribulation begins, to create such a LIE shows theres really no limits pre-tribbers will go to make their MYTH true
so to the pre-tribbers, or better known as the illogical fibbers, SHOW ME THE VERSE ABOUT THE SECRET COMING OF JESUS?
I did not mean the question in disrespect I was merely curious if he had read it himself. AH is a very long set of books but they are in audio form on YouTube. It is 4-5 hours long each so it's a vast investment of time(I suggest reading along with the audio). AH is not actually going to fit in any of the pre-trib or post-trib type camps of modern eschatology because although Irenaeus speaks of being caught up before the wrath of God he also speaks of the Church being present while the mark,beast ect. is unfolding. So basically he does not combine the beast,image,mark ect. events with the wrath of God. From my take on AH Irenaeus thought that the beast would rise,the image,the mark ect. and it would be the last contest then the first resurrection and those remaining caught up, and then the wrath of God(i.e. beast,false prophet ect. removed)...
what you said is how i believe : Irenaeus speaks of being caught up before the wrath of God he also speaks of the Church being present while the mark, beast ect. is unfolding.
This is specifically what Paul is saying in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
the AC/MOS/Bad Guy/Lawlessness is Revealed
then Jesus Returns
then WE our Gathered to Him
Irenaeus speaks of being caught up before the wrath of God he also speaks of the Church being present while the mark, beast ect. is unfolding.
the cool thing about Irenaeus, is he is a Disciple of Polycarp, who is a Disciple of John, who wrote the Gospel of John, John I-II-III, and Revelation.
So, how Irenaeus believes is how Polycarp believes because that is how the Apostle John believes, which he would know from God Himself.
^
That to me, Speaks Volumes of Sound Truth!
It "looked like"... It had 7 heads 10 horns plus 2 so 12,,,one of it's heads was wounded to death and healed. just like Jesus being resurrected.. It "looked like it was of God" but the dragon gave it it's power... https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103528.htm https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13.htm
Sorry for short answer, Im working and coffee break was over,
The way I see it the church is pre raptured, when the tribulation begins God still needs a light in the darkness for people to see a way to God, For instance two lampstands will shine in the darkness. But the world will still be in the night.
As for the Day of the Lord passages, when it speaks about the Day of Jehovah or the day of the Lord its a reference to the tribulation period, when it speaks the about the day without the Lords name, it can either be about the tribulation or the Millennium, The Zechariah passage you quoted to me the context is more about the setting up of the millennial kingdom, The Lord has in previous verses touched down on the mount of olives in the second coming, formed a huge valley that greatly alters the geography of the area, and gives Israel access into or allows them to inhabit Jerusalem, reminiscent of going through the red sea or the Jordan, so I agree there is light but its at the end of the tribulation in this reference in my humble opinion. Sort of the night is darkest just before the dawnthoughts come to mind.
Of course this shows the survivors are not raptured so people are sure to disagree with me, but I haven't got a clue to what position you hold if you hold one, maybe mid trib rapture???
Sorry for short answer, Im working and coffee break was over,
The way I see it the church is pre raptured, when the tribulation begins God still needs a light in the darkness for people to see a way to God, For instance two lampstands will shine in the darkness. But the world will still be in the night.
As for the Day of the Lord passages, when it speaks about the Day of Jehovah or the day of the Lord its a reference to the tribulation period, when it speaks the about the day without the Lords name, it can either be about the tribulation or the Millennium, The Zechariah passage you quoted to me the context is more about the setting up of the millennial kingdom, The Lord has in previous verses touched down on the mount of olives in the second coming, formed a huge valley that greatly alters the geography of the area, and gives Israel access into or allows them to inhabit Jerusalem, reminiscent of going through the red sea or the Jordan, so I agree there is light but its at the end of the tribulation in this reference in my humble opinion. Sort of the night is darkest just before the dawnthoughts come to mind.
Of course this shows the survivors are not raptured so people are sure to disagree with me, but I haven't got a clue to what position you hold if you hold one, maybe mid trib rapture???
No worries….
Rev 22:16 (Jesus' last recorded words*)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (KJV)
Where is the rapture of the churches? They are present here.
If we read the whole fifth chapter of Amos, it is clear that God is angry at those who have turned justice to “wormwood.” In other words, “Woe.” God is calling them to repent and follow Him instead of following false teachers. The Day of the Lord when Jesus Christ, the King of kings returns, will not be a good time for the unrepentant evildoers.
Listen, God is not angry with those who call on Him, who love and follow Him. All of our Father’s promises are true. We can count on the promise in Isaiah that tells us:
Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.'
- Isaiah 41:10
I wouldn't even say "mid-trib" because the tribulation as I read it is only 42 months. Daniel's week is 7 years, but I don't necessarily equate the two. The tribulation is the break point in the week. I believe the body of Christ will be on earth for the first part of Daniel's week as the anti-Christ is made know, but the trouble has not begun yet for Israel.
Would you provide a verse that tells us the church is not present in the second half of the tribulation? Thanks.
They have already been posted many times. 1 Thessalonians 4 ring a bell? 1 Corinthians 15? Read Revelation from 4 on and the body of Christ is not present on earth during the time of Jacob's trouble. When one does not rightly divide the body of Christ from Israel, a mess can be made of scripture.
My questions to you are, when is the marriage of the Lamb and his bride? It is clearly not on earth. When does the judgment seat of Christ take place for the body of Christ? It is clearly not on earth.
Does anyone know why the book of Revelation starts out focusing on the Church, but the very point when the Tribulation begins with the opening of the seals, the Church is not mentioned even one time throughout all the rest of that book? The very last mention of the Church is in Revelation 3:14.
Ah, and I've heard some say that "the saints" is the Church in the tribulation chapters, and yet that overly simplistic assumption only trips over its own feet, given that God's wrath is not going to be poured out upon the Church, but rather is intended upon Israel and the pagan world of unbelievers.
In chapter 7, the innumerable saints standing before the Throne...not the Church, but the martyred saints...have only palm branches and white robes, not crowns of reward, as does the Church.
Yeah, I've encountered people who have a problem with the idea that the Tribulation saints are not a part of the Church because of their having waited until after the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth dwellers.
Some have even claimed that the wrath doesn't start until the bowls, or vials, are poured out.
Really? Seriously? If chapter 6 is not the beginning of God's wrath, after the fourth horsemen is released and a fourth of humanity is killed, whose wrath is it, then. Where it's true that there is a point that is called "the great wrath," but if the killing of a whole fourth of humanity isn't the beginning of God's wrath through His intentional opening of that seal, then whose wrath is it?
Did some other god or angel concocted in the mind of doubters suddenly appear and kill that much of all humanity on the basis of his own whims, independent of Christ, even though it's Christ who opened that seal and released that pale horseman of death upon the earth?
Can someone please answer this?
MM
Ah, and I've heard some say that "the saints" is the Church in the tribulation chapters, and yet that overly simplistic assumption only trips over its own feet, given that God's wrath is not going to be poured out upon the Church, but rather is intended upon Israel and the pagan world of unbelievers.
In chapter 7, the innumerable saints standing before the Throne...not the Church, but the martyred saints...have only palm branches and white robes, not crowns of reward, as does the Church.
Yeah, I've encountered people who have a problem with the idea that the Tribulation saints are not a part of the Church because of their having waited until after the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth dwellers.
Some have even claimed that the wrath doesn't start until the bowls, or vials, are poured out.
Really? Seriously? If chapter 6 is not the beginning of God's wrath, after the fourth horsemen is released and a fourth of humanity is killed, whose wrath is it, then. Where it's true that there is a point that is called "the great wrath," but if the killing of a whole fourth of humanity isn't the beginning of God's wrath through His intentional opening of that seal, then whose wrath is it?
Did some other god or angel concocted in the mind of doubters suddenly appear and kill that much of all humanity on the basis of his own whims, independent of Christ, even though it's Christ who opened that seal and released that pale horseman of death upon the earth?
Can someone please answer this?
MM
What in 1 Thessalonians 4 suggests that the Church is not present? Prove your view. What is the subject of 1 Thessalonians 4?
1 Thes. 4:17 is quite clear in that it's a comforting for the believers in Thessalonica, stating that even the living will be raptured, as evidenced in the use of the Greek word harpazo, which, in the Latin, is translated rapturos, from which we get the English word "rapture."
The simplistic jam about the word "rapture" not being in the Bible...that's a shallow dodge of the clear evidence to the fact that the concept is well rooted in the text.
MM
Not 12, only 10. There is NEVER 12 horns on the 7 headed beast anywhere in Rev, nor is there ever less than 10. Don't take something from another book and force it into the writings of a completely different book.