THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

[Dino246]

How about all the passages pertaining to the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the church? I would say they both had a part, but the husband was the lead.

“All” the passages? You mean the one passage?

 

[AworkINprogress]

My advice is stick with the Bible. Nehemiah6 knows THE Bible.

Yes and No. Rather stick to the voice of the Holy Spirit, for when He is come, He will teach you all things and remind you of the things that I have already told you.

So many people have so many different ideas when they read the bible. Most times it’s with our natural understanding and we get into all sorts of wrong thinking. But, if when the Holy Spirit is added into the mix and we wait on His voice because we are not living on what is written alone, but by every spoken word that is coming out of the mouth of God today.

Although I am addressing a senior member, it’s not meant for you alone but rather for all of us. Listening to the voice of God isn’t easy when there is so much of our mind that is also doing a lot of thinking. And so many voices that demand that we open our ears to listen to them. It’s a battle!!

 

[Dino246]

That is completely false. Deacons serve the church as stewards handling the temporal affairs of the church, but they are not elders who are responsibly for preaching and teaching. But Phoebe was serving the church in other ways. Possibly she was a wealthy business woman who came to to the financial aid of indigent Christians, including Paul. That would fit the context.

It conveniently fits your interpretation. There is no indication that Phoebe was called a diakonos because she was financially generous.

The hard reality is that the responsibilities of deacons simply are not given in Scripture. Many people think that "waiting on tables" from Acts 6 is the description, but that is not stated explicitly. When you consider that Paul is called a diakonos (and not in the context of waiting on tables either), you must broaden the scope of responsibility.

 

[Dino246]

We need to focus on THE OFFICE of the deacon.

Right, because you say so and it aligns with your interpretation. Um, no.

As we see in the NT there were two offices in the churches: (a) elders and (b) deacons, and only men could be appointed to them. Which means that these men were appointed in an official capacity to serve the churches. The elders were in fact pastors/elders/bishops required to lead and feed the flock ("the ministry of the Word"), while watching over the spiritual wellbeing of the Christians.

"Pastor" is nowhere associated with "elder" in Scripture.

But the function of deacons was to minister to the physical needs of the Christians (food, clothes, shelter, transportation). We see this in Acts 6:1-4.

No, we don't. Acts 6:1-4 doesn't say that is the function of deacons.

So it should be clear that there were no deaconesses in the NT churches.

No; the females in that role are called "deacon", not "deaconess". By the way, when I searched for "deaconess" in the KJV on Biblegateway, it provided no results but suggested Romans 16:1.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Again, the office of a deacon is different than a servant. Jesus nor Paul held the office of a deacon. They were both servants.

Obviously we are talking about a role not a office. They both by the Greek language operated under the word deacon among other roles as well. Both servants and teachers.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

We need to focus on THE OFFICE of the deacon. As we see in the NT there were two offices in the churches: (a) elders and (b) deacons, and only men could be appointed to them. Which means that these men were appointed in an official capacity to serve the churches. The elders were in fact pastors/elders/bishops required to lead and feed the flock ("the ministry of the Word"), while watching over the spiritual wellbeing of the Christians. But the function of deacons was to minister to the physical needs of the Christians (food, clothes, shelter, transportation). We see this in Acts 6:1-4.

However we need to look at 1 Timothy 3:8-13, where Paul speaks not once, but twice about "the office of a deacon": 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

So it should be clear that there were no deaconesses in the NT churches. But women served in many capacities and were honored for their service.

We need to focus on THE OFFICE of the deacon.

This is what we have been doing but I am looking to see if you can bring my thinking to a logical conclusion.

Both Paul and Jesus was considered by the role of deakonos and both were single men. Both taught as teachers while serving others.


Paul must of forgot to eliminate himself as he was not a man of one spouse and so was Jesus.

Why the same word here as used for Phoebe?

Can only married men of one wife be a deacon or overseer?

Here is Paul saying he became a deacon of the gospel. Same word as deacon is translated as servant as well.

Ephesians 3:7
New International Version
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power.

Now if you follow the doctrine of women submission to men then do you also apply in 1 Timothy 11 that men are not to have long hair and women are not to have shaved or short hair?

Are you enforcing this?

Or 1 Timothy 2 also says women can not have elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes?

Are you enforcing this as well?

They also must be submissive and be quiet when men are teaching? (Also this translation could mean husband not men in general which changes the context)

I know this is being taught already.

But near the end women are to be saved from the evil done by Eve through reproduction?

How do you teach this?

I want to know if we the individual is now the temple, we the individual is now the church, and where 2 or 3 are gathered this is an assembly what is your guidance on women teaching if two of these are men?

If a women breaks the rules and preaches the gospel leading men to Christ, will those men not be saved?

In context of 1 Corinthians do you agree Paul was addressing disorder in the church and that the Corinthians had women prophets? Is order of who speaks the same as not speaking entirely?

In context did you know the church of Corinthians and Ephesus had issues with pagan traditions related to women that very well could be the reasons only these Churches are addressed?

Even the concept of a women covering was due to pagan rituals especially shaven heads, fancy jewelry and clothes. In context Paul even addresses the issue of women trying to surpass the men with heresies.

 

[John146]

Of course a female deacon can have a husband, and at that time, a man might have had more than one wife. It’s really not that difficult.

Opinion without scripture are just opinions, not truth.

 

[John146]

Where is this distinction spelled out in Scripture? Where, for that matter, are the qualifications and duties of a “servant” spelled out?

Hint: the pastoral epistles.

You mean the office of a deacon? Should we not all be servants?

 

[John146]

Yes and No. Rather stick to the voice of the Holy Spirit, for when He is come, He will teach you all things and remind you of the things that I have already told you.

So many people have so many different ideas when they read the bible. Most times it’s with our natural understanding and we get into all sorts of wrong thinking. But, if when the Holy Spirit is added into the mix and we wait on His voice because we are not living on what is written alone, but by every spoken word that is coming out of the mouth of God today.

Although I am addressing a senior member, it’s not meant for you alone but rather for all of us. Listening to the voice of God isn’t easy when there is so much of our mind that is also doing a lot of thinking. And so many voices that demand that we open our ears to listen to them. It’s a battle!!

We listen to the voice of God as we read scripture. Scripture is the voice of God. And yes, the Spirit teaches us as we read scripture.

 

[John146]

Obviously we are talking about a role not a office. They both by the Greek language operated under the word deacon among other roles as well. Both servants and teachers.

Can a woman hold the office of a deacon according to scripture?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Can a woman hold the office of a deacon according to scripture?

Phoebe...

 

[Gideon300]

THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

For several weeks now, I have been thinking of the situation of the women in the Church. It has been heavy on my heart, and I have given much thought as to how best present it here on Christian Chat.

I am not arguing any particular Church Group/Denominational Teaching as being right or wrong. That is not the purpose of this Article.

The purpose of this Article is to discuss the situation that millions of women in the Church find themselves. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. For the purpose of this Article, I am taking the position that their teachings are true and Biblical (my personal thoughts not withstanding).

The most taught writing of the Apostle Paul is found in 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The Churches do not allow women to be Pastors, or hold Offices that give them authority over the men of the Congregation based on this writing. And, as far as I know, the millions of women who attend the Churches that teach this, are not rising up in protest. I can not say how they feel in their hearts, or what they think in their minds, but I am not aware of any great movement by the women to protest this teaching of their Church.

The Church Leaders hold that the Apostle Paul was speaking for God, and, thus, this teaching is a Commandment from God. And as such, must be obeyed. I fully agree that the Commandments from God must be obeyed, for Jesus Himself taught this on numerous occasions. One such is found in the 14th Chapter of John: 15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.


The problem is, this is not the only teaching concerning women that the Apostle Paul wrote. 1 Timothy contains other teachings:

9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10) But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
The Apostle Paul also stated how a woman would receive salvation:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

There are othere Epistles where the Apostle spoke of women. The most notable being 1 Corinthians, Chapter 14:
34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

As well, in Titus, Chapter 2 we find:
3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

These are the most know teachings concerning women from the Apostle Paul. Given that it is accepted that the Apostle Paul spoke for God in all he wrote, then all of these teachings must be considered Commandments from God.

And THIS is the situation that millions of women find themselves in!

To be clear, we can show the actual results of the Apostle Paul's teachings:

Women are to keep silence in Church. This means that women are NOT to speak/pray or sing out loud while in the Church Building.

Women are ONLY authorized to teach the young women/girls. However, this teaching can not occur within the Church Building, meaning in a Sunday School Room/Class. For women are forbidden to speak within the Church Building. So, I can only believe that they are to teach the young women at home.

Women are NOT allowed to attend Sunday School Classes, nor are they allowed to own or even read the Holy Bible. The Apostle Paul said "if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home." I can only believe that IF women have a question concerning the Gospel, they are to ask their husbands "at home," and it is the husbands duty to teach his wife the Gospel. In this way, what the women learn from their husbands, they can teach to the young women/girls.

Women are NOT to cut or color or style their hair. Nor are they to wear jewelry or make up. They are to dress in "modest" clothing. The Apostle said:
"9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Now, the situation women are faced with is that these writings of the Apostle Paul must be considered Commandments from God, since their Church Leaders have established that all that the Apostle Paul spoke/wrote WERE Commandments from God.

Given this, and given that Jesus Himself commanded that we obey Him, the millions of women who are not obedient to ALL of the Apostles writings find themselves living "daily" in disobedience to the Commandments of God!

I do not know if these women even consider this reality, or, if they do, how they justify not obeying ALL the writings of the Apostle Paul?

I have GRAVE FEAR for these women. My heart hurts for them, and I pray for them. I also do not believe their Church Leaders even recognize the situation THEY have placed their women in! How do the Church Leaders justify enforcing only one of the Apostles writings while ignoring all the rest? Do they realize that they are committing their women to live lives in disobedience to God?

I pray that somehow, some way, the Church Leaders that teach concerning women, and the women themselves begin to find a way to rectify this habitual life of disobedience. I have GRAVE FEAR for these women!

Even though the Apostle said they would be "saved in childbearing," he also stated:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
To receive their salvation in "childbearing," them MUST live in obedience to Gods Commandments!

I pray that the Church Leaders will sincerely pray and seek to address this dire situation!

Praying for the women of the Church..........

I would suggest that when men start behaving as they are instructed then women may be more inclined to do likewise. I also believe that there is a great deal of misunderstanding about Paul's instructions. I'm not in favour of the pyramid church structure in general, but female pastors are not Biblical. Neither is the "pulpit and pew" model that most denominations favour. There is no "clergy/laity" divide in the Kingdom of God. The church generally is weakened by the traditional emphasis on pastors. The word is used twice in the NT. Now there is pastor for just about everything.

The church is a body, not an organisation. Structure is necessary, but without life flowing, it is like Ezekiel's vision of the valley of dry bones before the soldiers come back to life. Every Christian has a role to fulfill. When they are suppressed, the church is poorer and weaker - no matter how many seats they fill on Sunday.

 

[John146]

Phoebe...

Phoebe was a servant. She did not hold office.

 

[Dino246]

Opinion without scripture are just opinions, not truth.

You asked the questions, and I answered. You didn’t specify parameters for the answers.

 

[Dino246]

Phoebe was a servant. She did not hold office.

Opinion without Scripture is just opinion, not truth.

 

[p_rehbein]

Pastor" is nowhere associated with "elder" in Scripture.

There does seem to be some controversy about this among various persons within the Church........ Here are a few links that discuss this issue:

Difference between Pastors, Elders and Deacons ...

Elders, Pastors, and Overseers: A Word Study

Elder, Bishop, or Pastor? | PeterGoeman.com

Is a Pastor an Elder? (The Two vs ... - Knowing Scripture

It seems that it depends on the Denomination or Church Group if the various Offices are interchangable.....

In our Church, Church of God Refomation Movement, the Pastor is just that! The Pastor of the Congregation. Preaches and serves as the main Spiritual Leader, and has the normal duties of a Pastor concerning Congregational Serving.....

Elders are those who serve in various other Offices withing the Congregation, and also assist in some of the duties of the Pastor. Such as visiting the homebound, sick, injured, elderly and such. Elders also see to the daily needs of the Congregation such as caring for the Church Building, serving on the Church Council and such.


As well, Elders are the mature members of the Congregation be they men or women who may serve to council any younger member in need of spiritual teaching.

 

[p_rehbein]

Phoebe:

This first-century C.E. leader of the early Christian community makes a cameo appearance in Romans 16:1–2. Paul graciously introduces her to fellow believers in Rome. Paul’s words establish Phoebe’s high standing in Cenchrea, her home city located near Corinth, and with him. They assure a ready welcome among like-minded followers of Jesus. Warm, personalized greetings to more than two dozen men and women follow, ending his epistle.

A study of Romans 16:1–2 reveals an amazing woman, one Paul treats as a fellow minister, one he forthrightly, and with humor, acknowledges as having money.

Paul describes Phoebe via three accolades, nouns translated in the King James Version (KJV) as “sister,” “servant,” and “succorer.” The New International Version (NIV) changes the last two to “deacon” and “benefactor.”

However, Phoebe seems under-recognized today as a full minister. Paul’s introduction equates her with other leaders in the early movement, men who traveled, evangelized and planted, and led churches. But translations indicate a gender bias and diminish this woman’s influence.

FOUND HERE:

Who Was Phoebe? - Biblical Archaeology Society

 

[p_rehbein]

Can a woman hold the office of a deacon according to scripture?

Yes.

See my Post on Phoebe......

 

[Dino246]

There does seem to be some controversy about this among various persons within the Church........ Here are a few links that discuss this issue:

Difference between Pastors, Elders and Deacons ...

Elders, Pastors, and Overseers: A Word Study

Elder, Bishop, or Pastor? | PeterGoeman.com

Is a Pastor an Elder? (The Two vs ... - Knowing Scripture

It seems that it depends on the Denomination or Church Group if the various Offices are interchangable.....

In our Church, Church of God Refomation Movement, the Pastor is just that! The Pastor of the Congregation. Preaches and serves as the main Spiritual Leader, and has the normal duties of a Pastor concerning Congregational Serving.....

Elders are those who serve in various other Offices withing the Congregation, and also assist in some of the duties of the Pastor. Such as visiting the homebound, sick, injured, elderly and such. Elders also see to the daily needs of the Congregation such as caring for the Church Building, serving on the Church Council and such.


As well, Elders are the mature members of the Congregation be they men or women who may serve to council any younger member in need of spiritual teaching.

I don't disagree that the roles of elder and pastor are conflated in the modern church. I just don't see the conflation in Scripture.

 

[John146]

Opinion without Scripture is just opinion, not truth.

Phoebe did not hold the office of a deacon, but rather was a servant of the church. There is a difference.

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: