The Trinity.

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williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
516
126
43
He is my Lord, my God, and my Savior, but the Father is the one God of all, including Christ.
So (according to the last sentence in Post 298) you give thanks to Father, Son, Holy Spirit... and then you throw in, "your Bible" (but what you really mean here, is your interpretation of "the Bible," hence you put yourself on equal footing with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). But then the follow-up question is: To how many god's do you give thanks, and prayer offerings to?
 
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evyaniy

Guest
Actually, you are completely incorrect here. You have totally fudged it. Let me show you a few things:

View attachment 254507
View attachment 254508
View attachment 254511


Notice, in 1:6 and 1:10, Paul draws on language taken from Genesis 1:

View attachment 254512

In Col. 1:15, when it refers to Christ as "the image of the invisible God," this draws on Gen. 1:26:

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And then in Col. 1:16, this gives us the reason why Christ is referred to as "the image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation":

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Notice the word, "because." Christ "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, because... ." "Because," why? Because he was God's first creation? No. The text tells you why: "Because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by Him... ." The scope of "all creation" (v. 15) is the same scope of "all things created" in v. 16. And as we saw from the allusions to the Genesis account, the "all creation" is specifically with reference to Genesis 1.

Further, in Col. 1:18, Paul writes (emphasis on the highlighted portion):

View attachment 254515

But notice that Rev. 1:5 picks up on this language:


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Rev. 1:5 speaks of Christ as, “the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler (αρχων) of the kings of the earth.” In Rev. 1:5, John relies on two sources: Col. 1:18, and Ps. 89:27,37.

In the first source (Col. 1:18), Paul uses similar terminology found in Rev. 1:5, “the αρχη, the firstborn from the dead.” Where Paul uses the term αρχη, John uses the term αρχων. This may show some correlation between Paul’s αρχη and John’s αρχων. While Paul never uses αρχων (it is more frequent in John), he frequently uses other related terms to express similar thought. Being that one of John’s underlying sources was Paul’s earlier epistle, it is likely then that the two terms αρχη (Col. 1:18) and αρχων (Rev. 1:5) are thematically related. Further underlying this is Paul’s use of the singular αρχη (Col. 1:18) in contrast to the plural αρχαι (Col. 1:16).

The second source that influences John’s thought in Rev. 1:5 is Ps. 89:27,37. Whereas, John speaks of Jesus Christ as, “the faithful witness,” the Psalmist refers to the throne of God’s anointed as, “faithful witness in the sky” (Ps. 89:37). And in 89:27, where the Psalmist speaks of God’s anointed as “firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth,” John speaks of Christ as, “the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” Ps. 89 lays sway over John’s interpretation of Paul’s words.

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John interprets Paul's words while also alluding to Ps. 89. Thus, from all this, I argue that what is on Paul's mind when he used the term, "firstborn" was Ps. 89:27.
Psalm 89
A contemplation by Ethan, the Ezrahite.

(Son to Father)

89:1 I will sing of the mercy of YHVH forever.
With My mouth, I will make known
Your faithfulness to all generations.
89:2 I indeed declare, “Mercy stands firm forever.
You established the heavens.
Your faithfulness is in them.”

(Father quoted)

89:3 “I have made a covenant with My Chosen One,
I have sworn to David, My Servant,
89:4 ‘I will establish Your seed forever,
and build up Your throne to all generations.’”
Selah.

(Spirit to Father)

89:5 The heavens will praise Your wonders, YHVH;
Your faithfulness also in the assembly of the holy.
89:6 For who in the skies can be compared to YHVH?
Who among the sons of the heavenly beings is like YHVH,
89:7 'El is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the holy,
And to be held in reverence by all around Him.
89:8 YHVH, 'Elohiym Tzva'ot (Tsaba',Sabaoth, Hosts),
Who is a Mighty One, like You?
YAHH, Your faithfulness is around You.
89:9 You rule the pride of the sea.
When its waves rise up, You calm them.
89:10 You have broken Rahab in pieces, like one of the slain.
You have scattered Your enemies with Your Mighty Arm.
89:11 The heavens are Yours.
The earth also is Yours;
the world and its fullness.
You have founded them.
89:12 The north and the south, You have created them.
Tabor and Hermon rejoice in Your Name.

(Spirit to Father and about Son)

89:13 You have a Mighty Arm.
Your hand is strong, and Your Right Hand is exalted.
89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation
of Your throne.
Mercy and truth go before Your Face.
89:15 Blessed are the people who learn to acclaim You.
They walk in the light of Your presence, YHVH.
89:16 In Your Name they rejoice all day.
In Your righteousness, they are exalted.
89:17 For You are the Glory of their strength.
In Your favor, our Horn will be exalted.
89:18 For YHVH is our Shield ;
the Holy One (Qadowsh) of Israel our King.

(Father about Son)

89:19 Then You spoke in vision to Your faithful people,
and said, “I have bestowed strength on the Warrior.
I have exalted a young Man from the people.
89:20 I have found David(Beloved), My Servant.
I have anointed Him with My holy oil,
89:21 with Whom My hand shall be established.
My arm will also strengthen Him.
89:22 No enemy will tax Him.
No wicked man will oppress Him.
89:23 I will beat down His adversaries before Him,
and strike those who hate Him.
89:24 But My faithfulness and My mercy will be with Him.
In My Name, His horn will be exalted.
89:25 I will set His hand also on the sea,
and His right hand on the rivers.

(Father quotes Son speaking to Him)

89:26 He will call to Me, ‘You are My Father,
My 'El, and the Rock of My Salvation!’ (Yĕshuw`ah)

(Father about Son)

89:27 I will also make Him My Firstborn,
the Highest of the Kings of the earth.
89:28 I will keep My mercy for Him forevermore.
My covenant will stand certain with Him.

(Father about Son and believers)

89:29 I will also make His seed endure forever,
and His throne as the days of heaven.
89:30 If His children forsake My Torah,
and don’t walk in My ordinances;
89:31 if they break My statutes,
and don’t keep My commandments;
89:32 then I will punish their sin with the rod,
and their iniquity with stripes.
89:33 But I will not completely take My mercy from Him,
nor allow My faithfulness to fail.
89:34 I will not break My covenant,
nor alter what My lips have uttered.
89:35 Once have I sworn by My holiness,
I will not lie to David(Beloved).
89:36 His seed will endure forever,
His throne like the sun before Me.
89:37 It will be established forever like the moon,
the certain witness in the sky.”
Selah.

(Spirit to Father about Son)

89:38 But You have rejected and spurned.
You have been angry with Your
Anointed (Mashiyach, Messiah).
89:39 You have renounced the covenant of Your Servant.
You have defiled His crown in the dust.
89:40 You have broken down all His hedges.
You have brought His strongholds to ruin.
89:41 All who pass by the way rob Him.
He has become a Reproach to His neighbors.
89:42 You have exalted the right hand of His adversaries.
You have made all of His enemies rejoice.
89:43 Yes, You turn back the edge of His sword,
and haven’t supported Him in battle.
89:44 You have ended His splendor,
and thrown His throne down to the ground.
89:45 You have shortened the days of His youth.
You have covered Him with shame.
Selah.

(Son to Father)

89:46 How long, YHVH?
Will You hide Yourself forever?
Will Your wrath burn like fire?
89:47 Remember how short My time is!
For what vanity have You created all the children of men!
89:48 What Man is He who shall live and not see death,
Who shall deliver His soul from the power of Sheol?
Selah.
89:49 'Adonay, where is Your former mercy,
which You swore to David in Your faithfulness?
89:50 Remember, 'Adonay, the reproach of Your Servant,
how I bear in My heart
the taunts of all the mighty peoples,
89:51 With which Your enemies have mocked, YHVH,
with which they have mocked the footsteps of
Your Anointed One (Mashiyach, Messiah).
89:52 Blessed be YHVH forevermore.
Amen, and Amen.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
No, the Bible is not wrong regarding John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

From this text alone you should know that something doesn't fit with your understanding here: "One is the mind and products of the mind, like reason (thus logic is related to logos) ….the other is the expression of that reason as, a word, saying, command, etc."

You will note that this says "the" (definite article) word (singular) existed. It doesn't say God's word or words, or God's reasoning/plans existed. It specifically says, "The Word existed...." And "The Word existed how? The Word existed with God. See, in John 1:1b The Word and the God are distinct, there is a subject/object distinction between the two. And finally, "The Word was God."

So whatever God is, The Word is, and vice versa. So if "The Word" is impersonal, (which you are advocating) God is impersonal...If "the Word is just a thought or a plan, then "The God" is just a thought or a plan. But remember, "The Word" singular existed, and "The Word" is not "The God" in John 1:1b.

Now, to back up what I've stated we have John 1:2-3 stating, "He was in the beginning with God. Vs3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." There's something else that needs to be said. Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning." John 1:1 starts out with, "In the beginning" as well.

The main though in the Genesis 1:1 beginning is WHAT HAPPENED "in the beginning." The John 1:1, "in the beginning the main thought is "WHO EXISTED" in the beginning. Maybe you can explain what sense would it make that God's "word or words" are with God? Or what sense would it make that God's thoughts and plans are with God? Care to explain that Artios1?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Since His Holy Name YHVH means Eternal Word it gives enhanced meaning to the phrase "and the Word(Logos) was EL(Theos, God) and confirms Who the Son is.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
Your the one with self interpretations. I have consistently quoted scripture whereas you have done nothing more (like here) make unfounded statements with no proof. Prove that I worship 3 deities. Your totally clueless regarding the doctrine of the Trinity.

It's also rather obvious that no matter what I say or post scripture you will only bring to the table "heretical" opinions. The Bible makes it extremely clear that there are three and only three persons (NOT THREE DEITIES OR GODS) who are identified as the ONE God in all the ways that the Bible identifies God.

He's identified by (1) His names, (2) His titles, (3) His unique attributes, (4) His unique actions and (5) His worship.

His names, or called by the Names of God (YHWH and its variants either directly or indirectly.

His titles, Lord, king, savior etc.

His unique attributes, omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, etc.

His unique actions, creation, origin of God's word, salvation or men and/or creation.

His worship. Given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE.

I am saying each person of the Trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above. Read your Bible and prove me wrong on this issue.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
They are also distinguished by Their unique voices throughout the Psalms speaking to Each Other and about Each Other.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
1 Thessalonians 1:6 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord when you
welcomed the message with the joy of the Holy Spirit, in spite of your great suffering.
The Joy of the Holy Spirit inside them.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
Ok, that's fine, that is an opinion, which he gave. That's not a matter of fact. He's basically saying people are too stupid to read the Bible for themselves and just believe whatever the preacher/priest spews out. Again, opinion, and that may be even be true of some people. But I think the vast majority of people here study and read the Bible for themselves.



Really, so why did Jesus keep correcting them and telling them they were not truly understanding WHO He was and WHAT His mission was? Why did they continue to accuse Him of blasphemy.



Well, first you need to understand the trinity, and you don't. ONE God in THREE PERSONS, the TRINIY. No one has claimed here that there are 3 different Gods. No seems to like the egg as an example but it works. One egg, three parts.





All three mentioned in below verses.

1. Matthew 3:16
“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”

2. Matthew 12:28
“But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

3. Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”

4. Luke 3:22
“And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

5. John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

6. John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”

7. Acts 1:4
“Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”

8. Acts 2:33
“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”

9. Acts 10:38
“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

10. Romans 1:4
“Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”

11. Romans 8:9
“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

12. 1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

13. 2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

14. Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

15. Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

16. Ephesians 2:18
For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

17. Ephesians 2:22
In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

18. Titus 3:6
Whom [the Holy Spirit] He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

19. Hebrews 9:14
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

20. 1 Peter 1:2
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.






Just proved that wrong with the above Scriptures.







Yes, it's really necessary. Let's start with Jesus is God.

  • Jesus possesses divine ATTRIBUTES. He is eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, unchanging, holy, and sinless. These are all characteristics of God, yet they are attributed to Jesus.
  • Jesus ASSERTED he was God. The Jews understood this was what Jesus meant because they tried to stone him after he claimed it.
  • Jesus has divine AUTHORITY. He not only asserted he was God, but he did things only God can do, like forgive sins, raise the dead, and accept worship.
  • Jesus’s enemies ACCUSED him of claiming to be God. It is clear that Jesus spoke and acted like God.
  • Jesus was AFFIRMED by other New Testament writers. The earliest disciples of Jesus taught that he was God. To have done this, they needed to truly believe that he was God. They had seen, heard, and confirmed he was who he claimed to be. 1. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Well, it was God the Father (Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10); it was also Jesus Himself (Jn 2:19; 10:17-18); and it was the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11). 2. Who gave the new covenant? The Father (Jer 31:33-34); Jesus (Heb 8:1-13; 10:29; 12:24; 13:20); the Holy Spirit (Heb 10:15-17).
    3. Who sanctifies believers? The Father (1 Thess 5:23); Jesus (Heb 13:12); the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:2).

    4. Who is the creator? The Father (Gen 1:1; Is 44:24; Acts 17:24; Eph 3:9); Jesus (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:8, 10); the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4).Job 33:4.

    5. Who indwells believers? The Father (1 Cor 3:16a; 2 Cor 6:16; 1 Jn 3:24); Jesus (Jn 6:56; Rom 8:10; Eph 3:17); the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:16-17; Rom 8:9, 11; 1 Cor 3:16b). The Bible even describes this in terms of different combinations: Father and Son (Jn 14:23); Father and Holy Spirit (Eph 2:21-22; 1 Jn 3:24); Son and Holy Spirit (Gal 4:6).
Everyone should read. Excellent Scripture references.
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
516
126
43
It's the Father who places in His hand and it is the Father who gives Jesus the power and authority to do what He does. Alpha means the first. To be first, there has to be others in the running. It can't be the Almighty God because there is only one God Almighty and He always was, is, and will be.
Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's essence. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Father is the one God of all including Christ.
Christ is the one God of all creation.
It is not difficult to spot the fundamental problem in your interpretation of this passage. You have failed to recognize the thematic connections Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44-45 have with Jn. 1:1-3 (and Gen. 1). If I can show that Isaiah 43 has connection to the Father in any way, then your entire thesis falls flat, and you now have to say that the Father is created. You are demonstrating the inconsistency in your interpretation, in that the text has to take on different interpretations depending on who the referent is.

I have pointed this out in other threads, but this is also applicable here,

The Word participates in the very work that Isaiah 44-45 solely attributes to God, something that can be said of no other god (Isaiah 44-45). That is the point. It just so happens that in Isaiah 45:4-6, God alone is credited with “forming light,” and “creating darkness.” This statement in Isaiah 45 is an immediate allusion to Gen. 1:1-3, and is something the Word Himself participates in (John 1:1-4; Targum Neofiti on Gen. 1:1-3).
But just how does John correlate with Isaiah 45:4-6? Who is doing the "creating" in Jn. 1:1? And who is doing the "creating" in Isaiah 45:4-6? John understands Isaiah 45:4-6 as the Father doing the "creating" in and "through" the Word. Therefore, to say that the Isaiah 43:10 is a reference to Christ's "existence" and not the Father's puts you in a bit of a rough spot. According to John, the one performing the action of the verb is the Father, and He does it "through" the Word. But according to Isaiah the action of the verb is done by the One you claim is "created." The fact is, the NT (depending on the author) uses Isaiah 43-45 with reference to to both, the Father and the Son, which also has some overlap with 2 Ezra 6:6.

Gen. 1:1-4:
In the beginning
, God created the heavens and the earth— 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light!” And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good, and God caused there to be a separation between the light and between the darkness.

John 1:1-5:
In the beginning
was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of humanity. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

Isaiah 45:5-7:
I am Yahweh, and there is none besides me; besides me there is no god. I gird you though you do not know me,
6 so that they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides me; I am Yahweh and there is none besides me. I form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.

2 Ezra 6:1-6:
He said to me, “At the beginning of the circle of the earth, before the portals of the world were in place, and before the assembled winds blew, 2 and before the rumblings of thunder sounded, and before the flashes of lightning shone, and before the foundations of paradise were laid, 3 and before the beautiful flowers were seen, and before the powers of movements were established, and before the innumerable hosts of angels were gathered together, 4 and before the heights of the air were lifted up, and before the measures of the firmaments were named, and before the footstool of Zion was established, 5 and before the present years were reckoned, and before the imaginations of those who now sin were estranged, and before those who stored up treasures of faith were sealed— 6 then I planned these things, and they were made through me alone and not through another, just as the end shall come through me alone and not through another.”

All these examples intersect with one another in John's gospel. The very thing, God does ("create") he does so "through" His Son (cf. 1 Cor. 8:6, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11). You cannot dissassociate the Father from the act, when the NT instrically associates Him to the act. Therefore, your argument regarding Isaiah as a reference to the Son being brought into existence shows one thing: You've misunderstood the text (and in a big way).
 

Needevidence

Active member
Mar 15, 2023
261
59
28
John 1:1 doesn’t mention the name Jesus - why would John not mention Jesus by name? Also, if the ‘word’ was Jesus, then the sentence would be:

"and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God" – this defies logic
 
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evyaniy

Guest
John 1:1 doesn’t mention the name Jesus - why would John not mention Jesus by name? Also, if the ‘word’ was Jesus, then the sentence would be:

"and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God" – this defies logic
Read the whole chapter. John clearly explains Who the Word is.
 

Needevidence

Active member
Mar 15, 2023
261
59
28
Read the whole chapter. John clearly explains Who the Word is.
If John 1 was clear - why would he have doubt - Luke 7:18-23

18 The disciples of John reported to him about all these things. 19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?”

You would think John 1 would be earlier and JtB would know well before Luke even come on to the seen.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
If John 1 was clear - why would he have doubt - Luke 7:18-23

18 The disciples of John reported to him about all these things. 19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?”

You would think John 1 would be earlier and JtB would know well before Luke even come on to the seen.
Intellectual honesty is more important than debating. Some read to find disputation; others read to believe. to each their own.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Please explain what you believe that gives you hope in life and hope for Eternal Life. What promises do you have to offer anyone with substantial evidence of Truth and an Eternal Reward of Life. That is what matters and what is at stake for all of us.

If you have something better than what the Holy Scriptures give us with more evidentiary proof of Their veracity and irrefutable accuracy and Historical certainty, then by all means present what you offer and can prove. If you don't have anything better than the Holy Word then what is to be gained for anyone by trying to discredit the Word. It makes no sense.

Looking for evidence within Scripture of Their Truth is far more rewarding than anything else life has to offer. Being offered an opportunity to partake of the Divine Nature and receive joint Heirship of creation with Messiah is beyond words and our comprehension. Why would anyone want to oppose such a magnificent gift that can be received by believing in the Son, as is revealed in the Word?
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
516
126
43
John 1:1 doesn’t mention the name Jesus - why would John not mention Jesus by name? Also, if the ‘word’ was Jesus, then the sentence would be:

"and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God" – this defies logic
Instead of “trying” to raise an objection (a rather weak one, at that), why not take a pragmatic approach and try to come at this from a Trinitarian angle? The thing you say “defies logic,” really does no such thing at all.

You have two issues that intersect one another at a very critical point:

You impose your Unitarian worldview/framework back onto the Trinitarian when objecting to “Trinitarianism.” Thus, your Unitarian assumptions tend to “bleed over” onto other theologies. Your comments aren’t even an objection to “Trinitarianism,” per se. Rather, it is an objection towards a form of Unitarianism known as Modalism. The hidden presupposition underlying Modalism (like other brands of Unitarianism) is simply this: God is one sole individual.

Because you (being a Unitarian) think “God is one sole individual,” you impose that back onto me (a Trinitarian), when that is not what I believe. By doing so, you assume I (a Trinitarian) am a Unitarian, namely, of the Modalistic variety.

The difference between Modalism (a brand of Unitarianism) and Trinitarianism is that Modalism believes that “Jesus” pre-existed (in distinction from Trinitarianism) as the Father. That is, like all of their Unitarian counterparts, they believe there is one singular person in heaven, the Father. Hence, to them, Jesus is the Father. But for the Trinitarian, we do not believe that. We believe Jesus pre-existed eternally alongside the Father, thereby, existing in a “You,” “I,” “We” relationship. And that's where your issue is. You are conflating our theology (Trinitarian) with your Unitarian assumptions.

There are (14) instances in the Gospel of John alone, where some slight variation of the phrase πρὸς τὸν θεόν (Jn. 1:1b) is used. The number swells to (17) if we also include John’s Epistles. And if the Apocalypse is included, it swells to a whopping (19) occurrences.

This language (with some slight variation), is elsewhere used throughout the Testaments — including Acts 4:24, 12:5, 24:16; Romans 5:1, 10:1, 15:30; 2 Cor. 3:4, 13:7; Philippians 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:8, 9) — and another 20+ examples in the Genesis and Exodus accounts of the Greek OT (Gen. 17:18, 18:27, 18:31, 20:17, 24:49, 24:54, 24:46; Exodus 2:23, 3:11, 3:13, 8:25, 8:26, 9:29, 10:18, 18:19, 19:8, 19:21, 19:23, 19:24, 24:1, 24:2, 32:30). In each of these occurrences (aside from the occurrences where the neuter article τὰ is present), they explicitly refer to distinct individuals in some form of communication with one another.

In each instance (aside from the few that you would dispute, i.e., Jn. 1:1, 1:2, and likely 1 Jn. 1:2) there is real personal and numerical distinction. This is standard Johannine rhetoric when speaking of Christ’s decent/ascent to the heavenly places. Take Jn. 13:1-12 (Lexham) as an example,

Now before the feast of Passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he would depart from this world to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα), and having loved his own in the world, loved them to the end. 2 And as a dinner was taking place, when the devil had already put into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot that he should betray him, 3 because he knew that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God and was going away to God (πρὸς τὸν θεόν), 4 he got up from the dinner and took off his outer clothing, and taking a towel, tied it around himself. 5 Then he poured water into the washbasin and began to wash the feet of the disciples, and to wipe them dry with the towel which he had tied around himself. 6 Then he came to Simon Peter. He said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will understand after these things.” 8 Peter said to him, “You will never wash my feet forever!” Jesus replied to him, “Unless I wash you, you do not have a share with me.” 9 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!” 10 Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed only needs to wash his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 (For he knew the one who would betray him; because of this he said, “Not all of you are clean.”) 12 So when he had washed their feet and taken his outer clothing and reclined at table again, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done for you?”
Within the span of just a few short sentences, John uses such language (twice) in the immediate context to speak of Christ’s departing “to” God (and seven more times as the narrative progresses). But the reason for citing this example in Jn. 13 is not only to show the frequency in which John uses the language, but also the surrounding context in which it is used. There are conceptual similarities in Jn. 13 to the earlier Pauline work to the Philippians.

In Jn. 13, (and pay attention to the details of this) “knowing (εἰδὼς) He had come forth from God and was going away to God (πρὸς τὸν θεόν),” Christ rises from the table and lays aside His “outer garments,” clothing Himself with a towel (v. 4). In Phil. 2, Christ divests Himself of His glorious garments (vv. 6-7) by clothing Himself with human nature (cf. 2 Cor. 8:9).

In Phil. 2, Christ takes the form of a slave, yet, in Jn. 13, He performs a menial task often assigned to slaves (washing the feet of others).

In Jn. 13, upon completion of this task, Christ once again takes up His (former) outer garments. In Phil. 2, after His work on earth is finished, He returns to the visible glory with the Father that was His before time.

In Phil. 2, Christ is exalted by the Father and sits down (once more) on His heavenly throne, yet, in Jn. 13, Christ resumes His place at the table, from which He had temporarily departed.

The story in Jn. 13 is an example of humble service. In Phil. 2, Paul uses the incarnation and humiliation of Christ as an example of humble service (Phil. 2:1-5).

With the imagery and conceptual ties to Phil. 2 in the backdrop, John seizes upon language from his prologue (πρὸς τὸν θεόν) and weaves it back into the narrative to demonstrate that Christ will once more “resume His place at the table,” from which He had once departed (Jn. 1:1). He was “with” God in the beginning (Jn. 1:1, Phil. 2:6), and was now going back to God (Jn. 13:3-4, Phil. 2:9-11), seated at the right hand of God. But even more striking are that the words recorded in Jn. 13:3-4 are not the “spoken words” of Christ (or of the narrator for that matter), but even as the narrator explains, are the “inner-thinkings” (εἰδὼς) of Christ, which seems to form yet another connection to Phil. 2:6 in that both texts place Christ’s thoughts and contemplations on “equality with God,” which again points us back to the prologue, Jn. 1:1. Fresh on Christ’s mind was: πρὸς τὸν θεόν (Jn. 1:1, 13:3-4), which He then goes on to elaborate/reflect on (or, “speak His mind”) in the ensuing narrative (specifically, Chapters 14 through 17):

But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go away. For if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me, 10 and concerning righteousness, because I am going away to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα) and you will see me no more, 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

12 I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 But when he—the Spirit of truth—comes, he will guide you into all the truth. For he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will proclaim to you the things to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and will proclaim it to you. 15 Everything that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he takes from what is mine and will proclaim it to you.

16 “A little while and you will see me no more, and again a little while and you will see me. 17 So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he is saying to us, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going away to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα)’?” 18 So they kept on saying, “What is this that he is saying, ‘A little while’? We do not understand what he is speaking about!” (Jn. 16:7-18)
And it is this very language that is used when speaking about Christ’s return “to” God, pointing back to Jn. 1:1, πρὸς τὸν πατέρα.

It really is just that simple.
 

Needevidence

Active member
Mar 15, 2023
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Instead of “trying” to raise an objection (a rather weak one, at that), why not take a pragmatic approach and try to come at this from a Trinitarian angle? The thing you say “defies logic,” really does no such thing at all.

You have two issues that intersect one another at a very critical point:

You impose your Unitarian worldview/framework back onto the Trinitarian when objecting to “Trinitarianism.” Thus, your Unitarian assumptions tend to “bleed over” onto other theologies. Your comments aren’t even an objection to “Trinitarianism,” per se. Rather, it is an objection towards a form of Unitarianism known as Modalism. The hidden presupposition underlying Modalism (like other brands of Unitarianism) is simply this: God is one sole individual.

Because you (being a Unitarian) think “God is one sole individual,” you impose that back onto me (a Trinitarian), when that is not what I believe. By doing so, you assume I (a Trinitarian) am a Unitarian, namely, of the Modalistic variety.

The difference between Modalism (a brand of Unitarianism) and Trinitarianism is that Modalism believes that “Jesus” pre-existed (in distinction from Trinitarianism) as the Father. That is, like all of their Unitarian counterparts, they believe there is one singular person in heaven, the Father. Hence, to them, Jesus is the Father. But for the Trinitarian, we do not believe that. We believe Jesus pre-existed eternally alongside the Father, thereby, existing in a “You,” “I,” “We” relationship. And that's where your issue is. You are conflating our theology (Trinitarian) with your Unitarian assumptions.

There are (14) instances in the Gospel of John alone, where some slight variation of the phrase πρὸς τὸν θεόν (Jn. 1:1b) is used. The number swells to (17) if we also include John’s Epistles. And if the Apocalypse is included, it swells to a whopping (19) occurrences.

This language (with some slight variation), is elsewhere used throughout the Testaments — including Acts 4:24, 12:5, 24:16; Romans 5:1, 10:1, 15:30; 2 Cor. 3:4, 13:7; Philippians 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:8, 9) — and another 20+ examples in the Genesis and Exodus accounts of the Greek OT (Gen. 17:18, 18:27, 18:31, 20:17, 24:49, 24:54, 24:46; Exodus 2:23, 3:11, 3:13, 8:25, 8:26, 9:29, 10:18, 18:19, 19:8, 19:21, 19:23, 19:24, 24:1, 24:2, 32:30). In each of these occurrences (aside from the occurrences where the neuter article τὰ is present), they explicitly refer to distinct individuals in some form of communication with one another.

In each instance (aside from the few that you would dispute, i.e., Jn. 1:1, 1:2, and likely 1 Jn. 1:2) there is real personal and numerical distinction. This is standard Johannine rhetoric when speaking of Christ’s decent/ascent to the heavenly places. Take Jn. 13:1-12 (Lexham) as an example,



Within the span of just a few short sentences, John uses such language (twice) in the immediate context to speak of Christ’s departing “to” God (and seven more times as the narrative progresses). But the reason for citing this example in Jn. 13 is not only to show the frequency in which John uses the language, but also the surrounding context in which it is used. There are conceptual similarities in Jn. 13 to the earlier Pauline work to the Philippians.

In Jn. 13, (and pay attention to the details of this) “knowing (εἰδὼς) He had come forth from God and was going away to God (πρὸς τὸν θεόν),” Christ rises from the table and lays aside His “outer garments,” clothing Himself with a towel (v. 4). In Phil. 2, Christ divests Himself of His glorious garments (vv. 6-7) by clothing Himself with human nature (cf. 2 Cor. 8:9).

In Phil. 2, Christ takes the form of a slave, yet, in Jn. 13, He performs a menial task often assigned to slaves (washing the feet of others).

In Jn. 13, upon completion of this task, Christ once again takes up His (former) outer garments. In Phil. 2, after His work on earth is finished, He returns to the visible glory with the Father that was His before time.

In Phil. 2, Christ is exalted by the Father and sits down (once more) on His heavenly throne, yet, in Jn. 13, Christ resumes His place at the table, from which He had temporarily departed.

The story in Jn. 13 is an example of humble service. In Phil. 2, Paul uses the incarnation and humiliation of Christ as an example of humble service (Phil. 2:1-5).

With the imagery and conceptual ties to Phil. 2 in the backdrop, John seizes upon language from his prologue (πρὸς τὸν θεόν) and weaves it back into the narrative to demonstrate that Christ will once more “resume His place at the table,” from which He had once departed (Jn. 1:1). He was “with” God in the beginning (Jn. 1:1, Phil. 2:6), and was now going back to God (Jn. 13:3-4, Phil. 2:9-11), seated at the right hand of God. But even more striking are that the words recorded in Jn. 13:3-4 are not the “spoken words” of Christ (or of the narrator for that matter), but even as the narrator explains, are the “inner-thinkings” (εἰδὼς) of Christ, which seems to form yet another connection to Phil. 2:6 in that both texts place Christ’s thoughts and contemplations on “equality with God,” which again points us back to the prologue, Jn. 1:1. Fresh on Christ’s mind was: πρὸς τὸν θεόν (Jn. 1:1, 13:3-4), which He then goes on to elaborate/reflect on (or, “speak His mind”) in the ensuing narrative (specifically, Chapters 14 through 17):



And it is this very language that is used when speaking about Christ’s return “to” God, pointing back to Jn. 1:1, πρὸς τὸν πατέρα.

It really is just that simple.

Hi you make many assumptions about me. I believe in Jesus but as to which form (Trinitarian, Unitarian, JW etc....) I have a lot of unanswered questions due to conflicting passages.

I am coming at this in a ‘pragmatic’ way to get information, clarification, examination, hermeneutics of the text etc… an approach to find the truth.

IMO the best way to do this is to Q text and see if a clear explanation can be found which provides the strongest evidence.

I’m not sure that this site is the appropriate forum for debating or questioning Trinitarian approach, which is not what I am doing, but may seem like this to some.

With respect to your very detailed point, you don’t really respond to the points I raised, which was a simple point if John 1:1 Jesus is the ‘word’ – how at Luke 7:18-23 JtB doesn’t know if Jesus is the ‘word’?

You also raise another passage which I am having difficulty understanding; John 16:7 ‘advocate’ - why does Jesus need to go away before the ‘advocate’ comes as the HS has been here from the beginning and throughout?
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
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Here we see the beauty of the Trinity (the full Godhead)—the Father, the Son Jesus and the Comforter the Holy Spirit.

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

- 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 (KJV)


Amen.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Luke 7

11 Soon afterwards, He went to a city called Nain. Many of his disciples, along with a great multitude, went with Him. 12 Now when He came near to the gate of the city, behold, one who was dead was carried out, the only born son of his mother, and she was a widow. Many people of the city were with her. 13 When the Adonai saw her, He had compassion on her and said to her, “Don’t cry.” 14 He came near and touched the coffin, and the bearers stood still. He said, “Young man, I tell you, arise!” 15 He who was dead sat up and began to speak. Then He gave him to his mother.

16 Fear took hold of all, and they glorified EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God), saying, “A great Prophet has arisen among us!” and, “EL has visited His people!” 17 This report went out concerning Him in the whole of Judea and in all the surrounding region.
18 The disciples of Yochanan(John) told him about all these things. 19 Yochanan, calling to himself two of his disciples, sent them to Yeshua, saying, “Are You the One Who is coming, or should we look for another?” 20 When the men had come to Him, they said, “Yochanan the Immerser has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are you He Who comes, or should we look for another?’ ”

21 In that hour he cured many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits; and to many who were blind He gave sight. 22 Yeshua answered them, “Go and tell Yochanan the things which you have seen and heard: that the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. 23 Blessed is he who finds no occasion for stumbling in Me.”

24 When Yochanan’s messengers had departed, He began to tell the multitudes about Yochanan, “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 25 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are gorgeously dressed and live delicately are in kings’ courts. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he of whom it is written,
‘Behold, I send my messenger before Your face,
who will prepare Your way before You.’
28 “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than Yochanan the Immerser; yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.”
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Here we see the beauty of the Trinity (the full Godhead)—the Father, the Son Jesus and the Comforter the Holy Spirit.

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

- 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 (KJV)

Amen.
They certainly have three distinct voices throughout the Psalms. There is no explaining that away.