The Trinity.
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here we go again, how many times to we have to see people lowered on behalf of the holy spirit
That's exactly right, "God is Spirit," according to John 4:24. "God is Spirit" means that God by His very nature is a spiritual being. Since this is true can you please tell me if within the whole of the Bible are there any verses, (even one verse) that identifies the ONE being of God as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as God?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Isaiah 9:6 KJV
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 14:9 KJV
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Colossians 2:9 KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
After reading this your I'll bet your a Oneness Pentecostal, am I right? The reason I know is that you believe that Jesus Christ is actually God the Father from the verses you quoted. The technical term for your beliefs is "Modalism." This means the persons of the Trinity represent only three "modes" or aspect5s of the divine revelation, not three distinct and coexisting person in the Godhead/divine nature.
Here is how your belief is portrayed. "I'm a father, I'm also a son to my father and I'm a husband to my wife and yet I'm one and the same me." Years ago I debated a Oneness and he said Jesus is all of them. Meaning Jesus is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Of course the Bible easily disputes this heresy. For one, your comparing "offices" with ontological beings. What if the person never gets married? Logically he could not be a husband. Or if the person never had children he could not be in the office of a father. Also, Mark 1:11 gives Oneness Pentecostal fits. "and a voice came out of the heavens; "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." Tell me how you reconcile this with "modalism?" If Jesus is the Father and the Son in your theology is Jesus speaking to Himself in both roles?
You then mentioned John 14:9. If you would have bothered to read farther down to vs10, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? There are two distinct persons in this verse, God the Father and God the Son. There are not one and the same person as you teach.
Moving on down to vs14-16 these verses make even worse for you. "Vs14, "If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. vs15, if you love Me you will keep My commandments. Vs16, And I will ask the Father, (one person) and He will give you another Helper, (second person) that He may be with you forever." The first person speaking is Jesus following by two other persons, hence the trinity of persons.
How about more proof that makes a distinction of persons. John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, ":If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him and We will come to him, AND MAKE OUR ABODE WITH HIM." You have two persons that are both 9according to the Bible) identified as the one God by nature living in a believer.
If your theology is right, why does the Bible bother to say two distinct persons will live in a believer at least as this verse? Don't forget the Holy Spirit will be with the believer as well. John 14:16. Prove the Bible wrong Saul-to-Paul?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Clearly you don't know the difference between the Son of man and the Son of God. Again, your using your own mind to interpret Scripture. "Distinct persons" is not in the Bible. It's from your mind.
So Oneness it is, gotcha.
Well tell me this Saul-to-Paul, why did Jesus Christ Himself often times refer to Himself as the "Son of God" and as the "Son of Man?"
He's the Son of God on His Father's side who's nature is deity. He's the Son of Man on His mother's side who's nature is human. It's a universal law that all sons bear the nature of their fathers. In other words, our nature distinguishes us from all that is not human. The Father, Son and Holy Spirits nature distinguishes the three persons of the Godhead from all that is not God.
Dogs have baby dogs, beavers produce other beavers and so on. So, how can you post this nonsense with a straight face that Jesus the Son of God in your heretical theology actually is or plays the role of the Father and Holy Spirit? Rember, I gave you Mark 1:11 where God the Father calls out from the heavens to His only begotten Son and says He is "well-pleased" with Him. Two persons and not one person who at the same time is both the Son and the Father. In your theology please reconcile this (apparent) giant contradiction?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
All you're doing self interpreting Scripture. In your mind you see God speak to His Son and you're making that 2 different persons.
Give me the Bible verse that say God is 3 distinct persons.
I gave you Isaiah 9:6 that clearly shows Jesus is the everlasting Father.
Give me the Bible verse that say God is 3 distinct persons.
I gave you Isaiah 9:6 that clearly shows Jesus is the everlasting Father.
No, the term "Everlasting Father" is NOT teaching that Jesus Christ is God the Father. The Hebrew phrase translated “Everlasting Father” could be translated literally “Father of Eternity.” For this reason, some have suggested that the title means that this coming Messiah is also the creator of everything: He is the father of time and eternity, the “architect of the ages.” While we know this to be true from the New Testament (John 1:1–3, Colossians 1:16–17), that is not the emphasis in Isaiah. In the Hebrew construction of the phrase, father is the primary noun, and everlasting (ESV, NIV, KJV) or eternal (NASB) is the term that describes His fatherhood. He is Father.
The meaning of the title "Everlasting Father" is akin to saying George Washing is the father or our country. In other words Washington played a key role in the founding of the United States and led convention that wrote the U.S Constitution. Also notice in the body of this post the phrase "architect of the ages." This means Jesus Christ is the creator and one of the verses that backs this up is Revelation 3:14.
"The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this." The Jehovah's Witnesses love to latch on to this verse to prove Jesus is a creating being. This is "NOT" the case. In the Greek language that word "Beginning" is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word. So what is an architect? The person who is qualified to design and plans or draws up the plans of something to be built.
This verse to is backed up by John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17 and even by His own Father at Hebrews 1:10 where He says, "And, Thou Lord, in the Beginning/arche didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands." So for a change, why don't you take the time to "THINK'" and look up the verses quoted and read them in their context. Words have meaning, and their meaning is determined by the context. You just said that at Isaiah 9:6 proves Jesus is God the Father because it says, "Everlasting Father." If I was to use the word "bark" you would not know if I meant the bark of a dog or the bark of a tree unless it was used in context of a sentence. In short, at least try and do some homework and look these things up in Lexicon's and Commentaries.
For example, beginning as I stated is the Greek word "arche." Please read: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g746/kjv/tr/0-1/
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
This is a good example of willful blindness leading to stupidity. You could go and join the Muslims.
For my PhD in theology, the doctrine of the Trinity was one we discussed and I wrote several papers on the topic, with over 100 references, including entire 1000 page books. So, not likely we will cover it all on this thread. And of course, in seminary, a place some people seem to despise, the Trinity is a major topic of theology. At least in my conservative seminary!
Suffice it to say, my study of Scripture verifies the Trinity in the Bible. I believe anyone who disagrees with the importance of the Trinity is using out of context verses to support their heresy. Not believing in the Trinity is a huge heresy, which the church has fought since the beginning, including believing that Jesus was not God, Arianism, (4th century AD); docetism, (2nd century AD) believing Jesus was not fully man or physical, even on earth; Sabellianism or believing God is three faces or modes rather than three distinct persons, or hypostatis as the Greek says. One being, ousia, and three persons - hypostatis.
According to Stanley Grenz, each trinitarian person fulfills a unique and specific role. In classical theology, this assertion is: The Father creates the world, through the Son, by the Spirit. Further, the dynamic that binds the Father and Son - the power of their relationship - is the Holy Spirit. In this sense, the Spirit is likewise the essence of God, namely love. This divine essence between the Father and Son lies behind the act of God creating the world. Because God is precisely this dynamic and this love, the Holy Spirit is the one through whom the Father, the direct agent of creation, fashions the world. In other words, the Spirit is the personal power of God - the dynamic of love between the Father and the Son - by means of which all things exist! And a person in his own right!
While the doctrine of the Trinity was formalized by the church during the Patristic era, it was not an aspect of the gospel proclaimed by the New Testament church. But, the church is right in recognizing that understanding God as triune is a non-negotiable dimension of the Bible. The concept of a tri-unity lies at the heart of the Christian understanding of God and therefore is necessary in order to maintain the central message of the Bible. While it is true that the doctrine of the Trinity is the product of a lengthy process arising from the experience of the people of faith, it does not in any way disparage the vital importance of the Trinity, not just in soteriology or salvation, but in every single doctrine of God, the church and humans. The doctrine of the Trinity is grounded simply and directly in the self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ.
Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity, rather than being of secondary importance, it is at the heart of God. In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity, is a practical doctrine that shapes Christian life. The Trinity establishes the unifying doctrines of grace, Christology, soteriology, pneumatology and eschatology, and therefore the mysterious reality that lies at the very heart of Christian faith.
Suffice it to say, my study of Scripture verifies the Trinity in the Bible. I believe anyone who disagrees with the importance of the Trinity is using out of context verses to support their heresy. Not believing in the Trinity is a huge heresy, which the church has fought since the beginning, including believing that Jesus was not God, Arianism, (4th century AD); docetism, (2nd century AD) believing Jesus was not fully man or physical, even on earth; Sabellianism or believing God is three faces or modes rather than three distinct persons, or hypostatis as the Greek says. One being, ousia, and three persons - hypostatis.
According to Stanley Grenz, each trinitarian person fulfills a unique and specific role. In classical theology, this assertion is: The Father creates the world, through the Son, by the Spirit. Further, the dynamic that binds the Father and Son - the power of their relationship - is the Holy Spirit. In this sense, the Spirit is likewise the essence of God, namely love. This divine essence between the Father and Son lies behind the act of God creating the world. Because God is precisely this dynamic and this love, the Holy Spirit is the one through whom the Father, the direct agent of creation, fashions the world. In other words, the Spirit is the personal power of God - the dynamic of love between the Father and the Son - by means of which all things exist! And a person in his own right!
While the doctrine of the Trinity was formalized by the church during the Patristic era, it was not an aspect of the gospel proclaimed by the New Testament church. But, the church is right in recognizing that understanding God as triune is a non-negotiable dimension of the Bible. The concept of a tri-unity lies at the heart of the Christian understanding of God and therefore is necessary in order to maintain the central message of the Bible. While it is true that the doctrine of the Trinity is the product of a lengthy process arising from the experience of the people of faith, it does not in any way disparage the vital importance of the Trinity, not just in soteriology or salvation, but in every single doctrine of God, the church and humans. The doctrine of the Trinity is grounded simply and directly in the self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ.
Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity, rather than being of secondary importance, it is at the heart of God. In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity, is a practical doctrine that shapes Christian life. The Trinity establishes the unifying doctrines of grace, Christology, soteriology, pneumatology and eschatology, and therefore the mysterious reality that lies at the very heart of Christian faith.
Your the one with self interpretations. I have consistently quoted scripture whereas you have done nothing more (like here) make unfounded statements with no proof. Prove that I worship 3 deities. Your totally clueless regarding the doctrine of the Trinity.
It's also rather obvious that no matter what I say or post scripture you will only bring to the table "heretical" opinions. The Bible makes it extremely clear that there are three and only three persons (NOT THREE DEITIES OR GODS) who are identified as the ONE God in all the ways that the Bible identifies God.
He's identified by (1) His names, (2) His titles, (3) His unique attributes, (4) His unique actions and (5) His worship.
His names, or called by the Names of God (YHWH and its variants either directly or indirectly.
His titles, Lord, king, savior etc.
His unique attributes, omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, etc.
His unique actions, creation, origin of God's word, salvation or men and/or creation.
His worship. Given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE.
I am saying each person of the Trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above. Read your Bible and prove me wrong on this issue.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
An heretic after the first and second admonition REJECT. We are not obligated to keep on discussing Bible truth with heretics.