The theif on the cross misconceptions

[CorrectiveLens]

Baptism is a command and everything done on the flesh requires a work of some sort, but it's not a work of the flesh as condemned as in Galatians nor a work of the law. Too many scriptures to ignor that say it's required. Keep I'm mind also that you're baptized into Christ, baptized into his death, you become a member of the church by baptism as the Lord adds you to his body according to Acts 2:47. No other way does this or can this happen.

All of the post resurrection baptisms occur automatically when Christ is preached.
The word Baptism as used by Jesus
Matt 20: 17- 19 And Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside along the way, and said unto them, Behold, we go to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him. And the third day He shall rise again. Matt 20: 22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto Him, We are able. In verse 18 and 19, Jesus is explaining the events that He has to experience when they go up to Jerusalem. In verse 22, He calls this experience of events that He has to go through a Baptism.

Luke 12: 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I constrain till it be accomplish!
Again, Jesus refers to an event that He has to experience as a Baptism.

Rom 6: 3 Know ye not that, as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
"Baptized into Jesus Christ" means Baptized in the name of the Son, where one believes in Jesus as Lord and Savior and becomes part of His spiritual body. As a member of His spiritual body, we become adopted sons of God and we, as part of His body will share in His reward of life, death, resurrection, and eternal life.

Rom 6: 4 Therefore, we are buried with Him by Baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory ( Holy Spirit) of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
When we are baptized in the name of the Son by believing, we receive the Father's Holy Spirit and become born again with a new heart that will aid in obeying the Spirit of the Law ( letting love be the motive for all thoughts and actions).

1 Cor 12: 13 For by one Spirit were we baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Greeks, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
When you are baptized in the name of the Father, you receive His Spirit ( drink into one Spirit) which makes us part of the spiritual body of Christ when we believe in Him ( Christ) as Lord and Savior.

1 Cor 12: 3 Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
It is the Spirit of the Father that convicts us of our sins and into believing and trusting that Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Eph 3: 14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Those that belong to the Family of the Father have been baptized in the name of the Father and have received His Holy Spirit.

Acts 1: 5 For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
This verse seems to indicate that one kind of baptism ( water) is going to be replaced with a new kind of baptism ( Spirit).

Acts 8: 12 But when they believed Phillip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
This verse indicates that the time of the baptism occurs at the same time as the believing. When they believed, ... , they were baptized.

Acts 11: 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
This verse seems to indicate that it is the Father who grants the repentance that is necessary to gain life. When one is baptized in the name of the Father, he first repents and then turns to Him for forgiveness. This repentance given by the Father is not a gift that can be refused. Repentance is a state of being and once it is granted, you have it.

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter explains the steps that takes place in salvation. You get baptized in the name of the Father who grants repentance. Then you get baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. This is not refering to water baptism as illustrated in the next verse which explains how baptism in the name of Jesus Christ occurs. And then ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit ( baptism in the name of the Holy Spirit).

Acts 19: 1-6 And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper borders came to Ephesus and, finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there is any Holy Spirit. And he said unto them, Unto what, then, were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on Him who should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied.
Baptism in the name of the Son occurs when a person believes on Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. John's baptism with water was a baptism of repentance. The Jews that came from all around the Jordan to get baptized by John knew nothing about salvation through Jesus Christ. Throughout the Old Testament, God's chosen people experienced hardships when they broke away from the God of their Father's. When they repented and returned to God, God forgave them and they received good fortune. That is why Jews went to get baptized by John. It was a Jewish ritual to publicly and to God declare repentance and a return to God so that they can receive good fortune from God. The water represented the washing away of their sins as they acknowledged their sins aloud and repented.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized; and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Peter was preaching to the Jewish crowd about Jesus and those that believed were baptized in the name of Jesus just like like John's disciples in Acts 19: 1-6 when they heard about Jesus Christ. Three thousand divided by 12 equals 250. If it was a water baptism each of the 12 apostles would have to baptize 250 people which would take a lot of time and waiting. People get baptized in the name of the Son automatically when they hear about Christ and believe.

Acts 2: 47 Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
That word "should" means "supposed to" because those that get saved are ordained by God ( predetermined ) from the beginning of creation.

Acts 8: 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch said, See, here is water. What doth hinder me to be baptized?
The eunuch had just left Jerusalem and was heading back to Egypt. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship and was probably of Jewish descent and followed Jewish customs. When the eunuch asked Philip what would hinder him to be baptized, Philip replied that if he believed (v.37) he could. The eunuch declared that he did believe on Jesus which means that he was already baptized in the name of Jesus. You can't be baptized in the name of the Son unless you first get baptized in the name of the Father ( who grants repentance). The eunuch wanted to declare his repentance through water baptism and Philip obliged.

John 1: 32-33 And John bore witness, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon Him. And I knew Him not; but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He who baptizeth with the Holy Spirit.
It was John the Baptist who was sent to baptize with water knowing that one of the participants would be the Christ. God let him know how he would be able to identify the one who will be baptizing with the Holy Spirit. It is Christ who baptizes in the name of the Holy Spirit of the Father and that happens when the Father grants repentance ( baptism in the name of the Father) and the person believes on Jesus Christ ( baptism in the name of the Son) who baptizes in the name of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 1: 16-17 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas; besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
If he baptized with water, he would know who he baptized. His not knowing means that in his preaching, he does not know all who gladly received his words.
For Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel;
In other words, let Jesus do the baptizing by our preaching.

1 Cor 1: 21 For after that, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Spreading the gospel of Jesus by preaching should be our bread and the Father's will. That is how people get baptized into believing and getting saved.

Acts 9: 17-18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even ( that is) Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.. And IMMEDIATELY there fell from his eyes as it had been scales; and he received sight, and arose, and was baptized.
When did the scales fall from his eyes? Immediately
When did he receive sight? Immediately
When did he arise? Immediately
When did he get baptized? Immediately

Matt 28: 19 Go ye, therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
If it was one baptism, it would have read " in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit." Since it reads, "in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", it is describing each of the persons of the Godhead's part in Baptism. This baptism occurs by teaching. He didn't tell them to make sure they bring plenty of water for water baptism.

The one baptism is the Baptism in the name of the Father because once you are baptized in His name, you will eventually be baptized in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit.
All the baptisms done with water were done by the Jewish Christians who thought that they had to show their repentance using John's water baptism. God knows the heart and is the One that grants repentance and therefore there is no need to show it because He already knows.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Agreed that Baptism is obligatory for salvation, since the Lord Jesus Himself said: "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Jn 3:5). The Lord said, not of Spirit only, but born of water and the Spirit, which is a reference to water Baptism. Even Titus 3:5 where it speaks of the "washing of regeneration" is about Baptism, a washing. 1 Pet 3:21 says "Baptism now saves you ... it saves you by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ" which shows Baptism saves, i.e. justifies us. (Incidentally, if OSAS were true, all the Baptized would be saved).

Further, the Lord Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16a). And in both the Gospels, and Acts, we read that Baptism is for the Remission of Sins, which means Baptism is not just a bare and empty symbol, but truly justifies. "John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mk 1:4)

"38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here, we see, one must repent and be Baptized for the forgiveness of our sins. And as a Gift from God, and a Reward for our obedience in keeping His Commandments (including to be Baptized), we receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit when Baptized.

God Bless.

 

[DJT_47]

I'm pro-baptism myself, but it's still interesting seeing the reasoning behind some of this.

If your view is that children are sinless, what's your take on Rom 3:23's "all have sinned"?

I think your child-innocence argument covers the scenarios about children without baptism, but what about the quality of the ritual itself?

If the words in the service are wrong, or misspoken, do you still see this as a valid baptism so long as the intention was there?

1st is says "have sinned" inferring as I've stated that since must be committed. The passage clearly infers action. Also, see below scripture, and if children are somehow born sinners, which us nor possible, what about the Lord? He was an infant at one time, born into this world as are other infants. Was he automatically somehow born in sin?

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Matthew 19:14

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[EDENgate]

I would wonder if Romans 10:9-10 tells us we can also be saved without baptism?

 

[mailmandan]

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and even the robbers who were crucified with him reviled him with the same thing. I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

A common argument used in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" is, "the thief was not subject to baptism because he died under the old testament mandate before Jesus died.

So let's see, after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, in Acts 2:38, we read - "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.." and before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, while still under the Old Testament mandate, in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, we read - John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, was this baptism of repentance FOR (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or was it or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) the remission of sins received upon repentance? It would have to be the latter in order to agree with the old testament mandate argument. In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water FOR repentance.. Now did John baptize with water "in order to obtain" repentance or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance? Obviously, the latter.

Whatever baptism is "for" in Acts 2:38, it's "for" in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 - "in regards to" remission of sins received upon repentance. So the water baptism is not necessary for salvation under the old testament mandate, but is necessary for salvation under the new testament mandate argument doesn't hold water.

Under the old testament and the new testament mandate, salvation is through belief/faith "apart from water baptism" (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

 

[Snacks]

Baptism is symbolic

 

[DJT_47]

All baptisms recorded in Acts were in in the name of Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus with mo record of being done in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:47 In the Greek per the interlinear dies not read at all as dies the KJV

4369 [e]
prosetithei
προσετίθει
kept adding
V-IIA-3S

3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
those who
Art-AMP

4982 [e]
sōzomenous
σῳζομένους
were being saved
V-PPM/P-AMP


The eunuch wanted to be saved not declare anything to anyone. Who was there to declare anything to? Him and Philip on the middle of nowhere. Baptism is nor a public declaration. Its to remove sin and be added to the body of Christ to become a Christian and child of God.

Mark 16:15-16 also Jesus own words

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

You're misunderstanding Acts 1:5. Read Luke 24:49 which records Jesus instructions to his apostles, to tarry in Jerusalem and wait for power from on high and Luke 3:16, all fulfilled in Acts 2 when the apostles received the power. And read Acts 1:4 and 5. This was not a replacement for baptism at all.

 

[Dirtman]

I can't say I've ever encountered the thief on cross / baptism argument.

I think the position you are taking is sound. The questions comes back to whether there are other valid ways to interpret the situation. And from each valid interpretation we can weigh the ramifications of those beliefs.

Consider these points:

If baptism is always required for salvation, is a newborn child that dies shortly after birth without the opportunity for baptism not saved?

If a mother experiences a miscarriage, is the baby without a hope for salvation?

If a mother aborted a baby (such as in the church of Satan human sacrifice ritual), does that damn the baby?

If a mother denies a child from baptism and that child dies prematurely, is that child cut off from salvation?

If something is misspoken during the rite of baptism, is the baptism void? How would a deaf person ever know if they are saved?

The conversation gets into strange territory of "salvation through works" which is contrary to scripture. And it also gets into the strange territory of humans somehow being able to deny eachother salvation through their works (e.g. the abortion example). The ramifications are enough to give me pause.

The idea that a person's choice to do evil could somehow deny someone else their chance at salvation doesn't seem right. Salvation in my view is a direct arrangement between a person and God.

Children are covered by the faith of their parents. Notice the second half of 1 Corinthians 7:15 where children are called Holy simply because one parent is of the faith.
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
I Corinthians 7:14 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.7.14.NKJV

 

[Dirtman]

I'm pro-baptism myself, but it's still interesting seeing the reasoning behind some of this.

If your view is that children are sinless, what's your take on Rom 3:23's "all have sinned"?

I think your child-innocence argument covers the scenarios about children without baptism, but what about the quality of the ritual itself?

If the words in the service are wrong, or misspoken, do you still see this as a valid baptism so long as the intention was there?

The promise of God is greater than the errors of men. Baptism is a work of and promise of God by faith through Grace. Jesus said in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. There are passages in acts where they say Jesus. There is no difference in reality, because they are one. Jesus said he and the father are one. The only way for us to foul it up is to not do it.
Luther said the promise of God is so powerful that if the baptism was performed by Satan himself it would still be valid because the work is of God and the promise is of God.

 

[DJT_47]

Well the Bible is crystal clear that water baptism is NOT necessary for one's salvation.

Do you even understand justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness?

Baptism is not required? That's not what the few verses below say! I'll trust the below.

At the same time water baptism is necessary for sanctification. So do you understand what sanctification is all about, since it is not the same as justification?

Acts 2:38 - Note: if you're in sin, you're lost

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21 - clearly says baptism saves

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 22:16 - as above, baptism washes sin

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Mark:16:15-16 - Jesus own words regarding baptism relative to salvation

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

belief + baptism = salvation

One conditioned upon and inextricably tied to the other

 

[Dirtman]

Baptism is symbolic

It is not symbolic and you can post no scripture that says it is.

 

[Dirtman]

Same applies to you = you cannot say the apostles were baptized in
the Name of Jesus. I specified original apostles, which Paul was not.

I was simply countering your talking points.

The baptism that counts is not by earthly water, but by Jesus via the Holy Spirit.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 2:38‭-‬39 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/act.2.38-39.NKJV

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

The doctrine that Baptism justifies or washes away sins is called Baptismal Regeneration. Acts 22:16b is yet another passage that teaches it when it says: "Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’"

Finally, since as the Prophet says, "Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7), God had already prophesied in the Old Testament, in Ezekiel and Zechariah, He was going to do this.

See for e.g. this passage, which foretells a fountain for washing away sins, which is Holy Baptism, as Acts 22:16 shows:
“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity." (Zech 13:1) Which other fountain has ever existed that cleansed from sin? Certainly none in the OT.

This Fountain is nothing other than Christian Baptism, instituted by Jesus Christ Our Lord, and cleanses from sin.

Wiki: "Baptismal regeneration is the name given to doctrines held by the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches, Oriental Orthodox churches, Anglican, Lutheran and many Protestant denominations which maintain that salvation is intimately linked to the act of baptism, without necessarily holding that salvation is impossible apart from it ...

Martin Luther elaborated the regeneration and the saving power in Baptism:

It is not the water that does them, indeed, but the Word of God which is in and with the water, and faith which trusts this Word of God in the water... [28]​

Lutheranism affirms baptismal regeneration,[29][30][31] believing that baptism is a means of grace, instead of human works, through which God creates and strengthens faith.[32][33][34]

Lutherans believe that the Bible shows how Christians are connected through baptism with Christ and the new life Christ's work gives us.[34][35] The Bible's author uses the picture of cleansing to show how baptism applies Jesus Christ's saving work to receivers.[36] Lutherans believe that the Bible depicts the connection between faith, baptism and being clothed with Christ. The result of the connection is that Christians are children of God with all the rights, privileges and blessings that go with that status.[37] Lutherans state that in his letter to Titus, Paul introduces the work of the Holy Spirit, again linking baptism, new life, and the blessings Jesus has won.[38] Lutheran scholars concluded that in the Scripture:

we see that baptism is not a mere symbol of what God does for us. It is not just a ceremony done to connect someone outwardly to a church. God is at work through baptism. He is connecting us to Christ's death and resurrection. All of his mercy and grace are directed at the person being baptized. The Holy Spirit is giving the new life of faith in Jesus. The results are amazing: buried and raised with Christ; clothed with Christ; washed clean of sin; a forgiven, believing child of God; an heir of eternal life.
— Otto 2010, p. 12"​

Taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptismal_regeneration

 

[ResidentAlien]

DJT_47, you seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say the thief on the cross was saved by faith; on the other you say we must be baptized to be saved. Makes no sense. We're saved by faith under the old covenant and the new. Is baptism important? Sure is, very important; we must teach and practice it.

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not attain to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but rather by the works of the law." Romans 9:30-32

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Wiki link, continued:

"History

Cyprian advocated for baptismal regeneration[6]
Early Church[edit source]
One of the earliest of the Church Fathers to enunciate clearly and unambiguously the doctrine of baptismal regeneration ("the idea that salvation happens at and by water baptism duly administered") was Cyprian (c. 200 – 258): "While he attributed all the saving energy to the grace of God, he considered the 'laver of saving water' the instrument of God that makes a person 'born again,' receiving a new life and putting off what he had previously been. The 'water of new birth' animated him to new life by the Spirit of holiness working through it."[6]

Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp are silent on the issue,[7] however the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, Theophilus, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian among others connected baptism with salvation.[8][9] Baptismal regeneration was also affirmed by Origen[10] and Augustine.[11] ...

Edit: continued, "Methodism
The Methodist understanding of Holy Baptism is a "Wesleyan blend of sacramental and evangelical aspects."[61] The Methodist Articles of Religion in Article XVII — Of Baptism, therefore states that "Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference whereby Christians are distinguished from others that are not baptized; but it is also a sign of regeneration or the new birth. The Baptism of young children is to be retained in the Church."[62]

John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, taught that:

In baptism a child was cleansed of the guilt of original sin, initiated into the covenant with God, admitted into the church, made an heir of the divine kingdom, and spiritually born anew. He said that while baptism was neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it was the "ordinary means" that God designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives. On the other hand, although he affirmed the regenerating grace of infant baptism, he also insisted upon the necessity of adult conversion for those who have fallen from grace. A person who matures into moral accountability must respond to God's grace in repentance and faith. Without personal decision and commitment to Christ, the baptismal gift is rendered ineffective. Baptism for Wesley, therefore, was a part of the lifelong process of salvation. He saw spiritual rebirth as a twofold experience in the normal process of Christian development—to be received through baptism in infancy and through commitment to Christ later in life. Salvation included both God's initiating activity of grace and a willing human response.
— United Methodist Church 2008​

While baptism imparts grace, Methodists teach that a personal acceptance of Jesus Christ (the first work of grace) is essential to salvation.[63][64] During the second work of grace, entire sanctification, a believer is purified of original sin and made holy.[65][66]"

 

[Dirtman]

Well the Bible is crystal clear that water baptism is NOT necessary for one's salvation.

Do you even understand justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness?

At the same time water baptism is necessary for sanctification. So do you understand what sanctification is all about, since it is not the same as justification?

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
Acts 22:16 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/act.22.16.NKJV

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
I Peter 3:21 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1pe.3.21.NKJV

 

[Dirtman]

Wiki link, continued:

"History

Cyprian advocated for baptismal regeneration[6]
Early Church[edit source]
One of the earliest of the Church Fathers to enunciate clearly and unambiguously the doctrine of baptismal regeneration ("the idea that salvation happens at and by water baptism duly administered") was Cyprian (c. 200 – 258): "While he attributed all the saving energy to the grace of God, he considered the 'laver of saving water' the instrument of God that makes a person 'born again,' receiving a new life and putting off what he had previously been. The 'water of new birth' animated him to new life by the Spirit of holiness working through it."[6]

Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp are silent on the issue,[7] however the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, Theophilus, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian among others connected baptism with salvation.[8][9] Baptismal regeneration was also affirmed by Origen[10] and Augustine.[11] ...

Edit: continued, "Methodism
The Methodist understanding of Holy Baptism is a "Wesleyan blend of sacramental and evangelical aspects."[61] The Methodist Articles of Religion in Article XVII — Of Baptism, therefore states that "Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference whereby Christians are distinguished from others that are not baptized; but it is also a sign of regeneration or the new birth. The Baptism of young children is to be retained in the Church."[62]

John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, taught that:

In baptism a child was cleansed of the guilt of original sin, initiated into the covenant with God, admitted into the church, made an heir of the divine kingdom, and spiritually born anew. He said that while baptism was neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it was the "ordinary means" that God designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives. On the other hand, although he affirmed the regenerating grace of infant baptism, he also insisted upon the necessity of adult conversion for those who have fallen from grace. A person who matures into moral accountability must respond to God's grace in repentance and faith. Without personal decision and commitment to Christ, the baptismal gift is rendered ineffective. Baptism for Wesley, therefore, was a part of the lifelong process of salvation. He saw spiritual rebirth as a twofold experience in the normal process of Christian development—to be received through baptism in infancy and through commitment to Christ later in life. Salvation included both God's initiating activity of grace and a willing human response.​

— United Methodist Church 2008​

While baptism imparts grace, Methodists teach that a personal acceptance of Jesus Christ (the first work of grace) is essential to salvation.[63][64] During the second work of grace, entire sanctification, a believer is purified of original sin and made holy.[65][66]"

So did Tertullian. His treaties on baptism makes it very clear.

 

[Dirtman]

This tread reminds me of a recent thread here about believing what the Bible actually says as opposed to imposing our reason upon it.
The Bible clearly says baptism washes away sins, joins us to Jesus in his death and resurrection and and literally say baptism saves in 1Peter 3:16. We as Christians have to let go of our rejection, rebellion, and self justification, and we must accept what is written. Like it or not.

 

[ResidentAlien]

We as Christians have to let go of our rejection, rebellion, and self justification, and we must accept what is written. Like it or not.

I think everyone agrees with that.