The theif on the cross misconceptions

[GRACE_ambassador]

I continually encounter people...

Precious friend, on this encounter, may I wish you:

A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

 

[Magenta]

The saving baptism is of the Holy Spirit of God, not earthly water.

John the Baptist said this of Jesus: “He on Whom you see the Spirit
descend and remain is the One Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism in John 3 is referred to as a ceremonial washing. Compare to earlier in
same chapter where Jesus speaks of the necessity of being born again of the Spirit.

Jesus fulfilled all righteous by allowing John to baptize Him.

Physical water accomplishes nothing toward the salvation of any other person.

"Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that
I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in
him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13-14

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying,
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the
Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke
concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit
was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

Jesus makes a clear distinction between the living water He gives juxtaposed against earthly water.

The Word of God is often referred to as water in the Bible because the Word acts as
a cleansing agent, which explains what Paul meant when he wrote concerning Jesus’
cleansing the church “that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing
of water with the Word so that He might present the church to Himself in splendour,
without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”
(Eph 5:26-27) <- from my search engine


Spiritual circumcision performed NOT by the hands of men...

Colossians 2:11-15 In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the
circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. And having been buried with Him in baptism,
you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made
you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in
the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! And having disarmed the
powers and authorities,He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

So this idea that water dunking is what cleanses us is null and void. That is not to say one should
not be water baptized or that water baptism is meaningless, for I have never said, hinted at, nor
implied either of those things and yet been falsely accused of saying those things by a number
of people who fail to grasp what it is I am actually saying.

 

[EDENgate]

biblically there’s no evidence that he wasn’t baptized in fact the evidence would lean towards he had been because of this

“Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judæa, and all the region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:5-6‬ ‭

there’s no proof he was among them at the time but there’s no evidence whatsoever that he wasn’t baptized or really that he was. We know he had heard Jesus preaching the kingdom and he believed because he asks to be part of the kingdom when Jesus received his glory

so the thought would be he’s a conscious man who fears god and most likely would have been among those baptized when it says “ ll Jerusalem and the region and Jude’s went and got baptized by John

unless he came along later which again we don’t have any evidence in any way for he was likely among those baptized at the first but there’s simply no conclusive evidence either way certainly nothing to even suggest he wasn’t baptized all we can say is he wasn’t baptized while he was on the cross nothing says he couldn’t have been beforehand nd most likely he was because the whole region was getting baptized

If he was baptized would he have been a thief?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

Those who quote Acts 2:38 invariably forget to quote Acts 3:19 which clarifies what is actually for the remission of sins: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

And Peter was saying EXACTLY what he had been taught by the Lord: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47)

Water DOES NOT wash away sins. It is the blood of Christ alone that can wash away your sins. And that happens when a sinner repents and believes. Therefore Acts 2:38 does not mean that salvation is through water baptism. It simply means that salvation and baptism are almost simultaneous. And that is exactly what we see in the book of Acts.

 

[EDENgate]

Yes, if you cherrypick scripture and only use 1 or a few and disregard the others thst say something different or more. Scripture must be read cumulatively by considering all related scriptures pertaining to the subject at hand, otherwise, scripture would appear to conflict with itself which is mot possible. No different than if you read only one of the four gospels and disregard the rest. You read all four to get the entire message.

There are verses that tell us faith alone saves. That's not cherry picking. That's Bible.

Because we are saved by God's grace. Not of ourselves. And that is why we cannot boast of saving ourselves by our own acts. Including getting water baptism.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Acts 22:16: "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6: "6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

1 Pet 3:21: "And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Baptism is effective means Baptism effects something. It is not a bare and empty symbol. What does it effect? The death to Sin and the resurrection/rising to the new life of Grace. It effects this because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

No mention of water.

Rom 6: "6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ
was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

No mention of water.

1 Pet 3:21: "And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body,
but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Effective in giving us a clear conscience, knowing we are reconciled to God by grace through faith
in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ, Who fulfilled the law and the prophets, giving His life
as an atoning sacrifice, for without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

 

[DJT_47]

Acts 22:16: "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6: "6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

1 Pet 3:21: "And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Baptism is effective means Baptism effects something. It is not a bare and empty symbol. What does it effect? The death to Sin and the resurrection/rising to the new life of Grace. It effects this because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You are 100% correct ! Baptism is a requirement and essential to salvation and not a symbol.

 

[DJT_47]

The saving baptism is of the Holy Spirit of God, not earthly water.

John the Baptist said this of Jesus: “He on Whom you see the Spirit
descend and remain is the One Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism in John 3 is referred to as a ceremonial washing. Compare to earlier in
same chapter where Jesus speaks of the necessity of being born again of the Spirit.

Jesus fulfilled all righteous by allowing John to baptize Him.

Physical water accomplishes nothing toward the salvation of any other person.

"Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that
I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in
him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13-14

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying,
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the
Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke
concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit
was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

Jesus makes a clear distinction between the living water He gives juxtaposed against earthly water.

The Word of God is often referred to as water in the Bible because the Word acts as
a cleansing agent, which explains what Paul meant when he wrote concerning Jesus’
cleansing the church “that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing
of water with the Word so that He might present the church to Himself in splendour,
without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”
(Eph 5:26-27) <- from my search engine


Spiritual circumcision performed NOT by the hands of men...

Colossians 2:11-15 In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the
circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. And having been buried with Him in baptism,
you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made
you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in
the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! And having disarmed the
powers and authorities,He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

So this idea that water dunking is what cleanses us is null and void. That is not to say one should
not be water baptized or that water baptism is meaningless, for I have never said, hinted at, nor
implied either of those things and yet been falsely accused of saying those things by a number
of people who fail to grasp what it is I am actually saying.

It's not null and void and us a requirement and necessary element of salvation, no different than belief or faith, or confession, or repentance. All are required including baptism. That's what the totality of the scriptures say.

 

[Magenta]

It's not null and void and us a requirement and necessary element of salvation, no different than belief or faith,
or confession, or repentance. All are required including baptism. That's what the totality of the scriptures say.

Ephesians 4:5-6
I'll stick with the ONE baptism by the Holy Spirit of God

 

[awelight]

Baptism is a command and everything done on the flesh requires a work of some sort, but it's not a work of the flesh as condemned as in Galatians nor a work of the law. Too many scriptures to ignor that say it's required. Keep I'm mind also that you're baptized into Christ, baptized into his death, you become a member of the church by baptism as the Lord adds you to his body according to Acts 2:47. No other way does this or can this happen.

This is because the church has two parts to it. The Universal church which includes all believer's who are in Christ. The local church, a manifestation of the Kingdom, in the Kings absents. Water Baptism is not required for entry into the Universal Assembly. It is an ordinance for the local assembly as part of true repentance and confession. Local assemblies require it for membership. However, one can be baptized into a local assembly and not be apart of the Universal Assembly.

The Bible defines Baptism as: An ordinance that is to be performed out of a good conscience to demonstrate ones willingness to obey his/her Lord before all.

Baptism, is not in the chain of Salvation by God.

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

However, if one is able to be Baptized, they should be.

 

[cv5]

The thief on the cross misconceptions

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

There is little doubt that the thief died AFTER Jesus had already given up His Spirit.
Jesus had yet to be resurrected, and Pentecost had yet to occur.....so it is an interesting question.

But the Christian baptism ritual is definitely NOT a prerequisite for redemption/salvation. Baptism, like all other Christian ordinances is nothing more than an outward public expression of an already completed work. Same as communion.

Of course baptism is hopefully an inevitable eventuality. But not a necessity. I for one would wait for a pastor that I knew for sure was a true believer to accomplish this task.

 

[cv5]

It's not null and void and us a requirement and necessary element of salvation, no different than belief or faith, or confession, or repentance. All are required including baptism. That's what the totality of the scriptures say.

Bro.....Jesus is not denying salvation to those who ask Him, who (for whatever reasons) could not or cannot immerse themselves in physical water......

Physical water does not wash away sins. It is an INEFFECTUAL ritual pointing to the reality of ALREADY being cleansing by the Blood, which itself IS EFFECTUAL.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I've never heard so much nonsense around something so elementary.

 

[Dirtman]

I've never heard so much nonsense around something so elementary.

Because people dont believe what is written in scripture.

 

[Dirtman]

Humans with Human reasoning attempting to remove an ordinance of God through Christ Jesus himself. What a sad and horrible work of Satan. To jump through so many mental hoops and interpret away the beauty and purpose of water baptism. Though Jesus was baptized himself to sanctify the waters for his purpose of baptism.
These threads make me very sad.
Why is it so hard to accept what is written as it is written? And we wonder why the church is such a mess.

 

[Magenta]

Because people dont believe what is written in scripture.

That is not it. Line by line and precept by precept people come to differing conclusions based on Scripture.

That does not mean they do not believe what is written.

It simply means they don't believe exactly what you believe.

 

[Dirtman]

That is not it. Line by line and precept by precept people come to differing conclusions based on Scripture.

That does not mean they do not believe what is written.

It simply means they don't believe exactly what you believe.

By human reason and sinful philosophy because flesh hates God.

 

[Magenta]

By human reason and sinful philosophy because flesh hates God.

God invites us to reason things out. It ain't all sinful evil philosophy.

Perhaps what is sinful is claiming someone doesn't believe
Scripture just because their view does not align with yours.

 

[Snacks]

That dont mean they rule out or over ride passages that say baptism saves/washes away sin/ join us to Christ in his death and his resurrection.
Because the passages that say that are scripture and are truth.

Baptism of the heart is what counts