The Security Of The Believer

[Bible_Highlighter]

I’ll try to simplify things:

The scripture says “though a man may say” which specifically faith is not just a verbal aspect or a mental assent just like the devil v.19 which is to be contrasted to “the faith of Jesus” v.1. Real faith works. The core belief has nothing to do with faith and works to be saved. Works providing your brother with their needs when you are capable of doing so is to show you really are saved. Yes, this conduct of believers is seen by the Lord and it is one of the proofs we are saved. This work will actually complement and not contradict Paul’s justification which is an act of God to declare righteous. Whereas those justified by God will need to validate, give evidence, or “justify” through their works.

Fulfilling the “royal law according to the scripture” is to do well James 2:8 yet keeping the law is not God’s way to obtain the favor of God “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” hence, this is not about faith +works = salvation. This merely shows, that saved “brethren” is to give evidence and not act like what the scripture said of a “vain man” v.20 who of course has his faith (verbal/mental) yet it’s dead.

Also, nothing in either James 1, or James 2 says that one is justified before men alone and not God. One is stretching the meaning of James 2:18 to say that when it simply not there in the verse. As I basically said before, you can read James 2:18 with being justified before God with no contradiction. Like I said back in post #1375, I have provided context that shows that James was talking in salvific terms that relates to our right standing with God and not men. This is clear if one just reads the text plainly like a child and they are not trying to insert OSAS or “Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism” into the text.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I’ll try to simplify things:

The scripture says “though a man may say” which specifically faith is not just a verbal aspect or a mental assent just like the devil v.19 which is to be contrasted to “the faith of Jesus” v.1. Real faith works. The core belief has nothing to do with faith and works to be saved. Works providing your brother with their needs when you are capable of doing so is to show you really are saved. Yes, this conduct of believers is seen by the Lord and it is one of the proofs we are saved. This work will actually complement and not contradict Paul’s justification which is an act of God to declare righteous. Whereas those justified by God will need to validate, give evidence, or “justify” through their works.

Fulfilling the “royal law according to the scripture” is to do well James 2:8 yet keeping the law is not God’s way to obtain the favor of God “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” hence, this is not about faith +works = salvation. This merely shows, that saved “brethren” is to give evidence and not act like what the scripture said of a “vain man” v.20 who of course has his faith (verbal/mental) yet it’s dead.

Works justify before God and not men because Abraham was justified by works before God when he offered Isaac upon the alter. There were no other men present with Abraham and Isaac whereby their work would be justified in their sight. Besides, works is just another name for “faith.” In Hebrews 11, it says BY FAITH Abraham offered Isaac upon the alter. Yet, James says Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac upon the alter. Same thing. Works are a part of our faith. They inseparable. The are joined as one.

 

[fredoheaven]

I have heard this more times than you know. However, this statement is usually said blindly or parroted without any real good evidence from the context. The only case one will use is James 2:18. But this verse is not saying he is justified before men alone and not God. He is merely illustrating the point of example of his own life. He can equally be referring to being justified before God by his statement in James 2:18. In fact, we know James is talking about being justified before God. How do we know?

Looking at just James:

#1. You have to receive the engrafted words of the New Covent, which is able to save your souls. “…lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21).

#1. You have to receive the engrafted words of the New Covent, which is able to save your souls. “…lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21).
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What do we need to lay apart for the saving of the soul?. God views the work of men as empty and just as filthy rags when it comes to salvation. The word of God, I believe is an agent in terms of regeneration or saving of souls. The scriptures say “Of his own will, he begat he us with the word of truth…”

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#2. Like being a doer of the Word. However, the person who just hears the Word only deceives themselves. “ …be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22).

This pertains to practical Christian living for it starts with “Wherefore” as in verses 20 and 21, which speaks of after being saved or that as being born again “begat he us” by the word of truth and the Holy Spirit of God, you have to work out your salvation which serves evidence of a having a new life.

Here is what is meant by the word “Wherefore” in 1611.

Wherefore sig:A Consequent, or that which followes, as an effect of some foregoing cause. Rom. 1; 24. Wherefore also God gaue them vp, &c. Heere it is an Illatiue particle. 2 A cause or reason of some thing. Rom. 1, 21. Wherefore (or because) when, &c.

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#3. This includes having a pure religion undefiled before God in loving the fatherless and the widows in visiting them in their affliction and remaining unspotted from the world (Which are actions or works). “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (James 1:27).

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Pure religion is about good works and believers’ or“brethren being ” begat by word of truth, and because of that, we need to keep. such good work. But then, they have nothing to do with losing salvation.

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#4. James then mentions a situation among the brethren whereby they showed “respect of persons” by giving favor to the rich brethren and not the poor brethren. This is sin. “But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.” (James 2:9).
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Yes, this is all good, I am not saying as believers we don’t do good works, we need to as saved not to be saved.

 

[mailmandan]

As for 1 John 1:7:

Uh, no. The words “If” and “we” are in th verse. It’s a conditional statement and John is including himself by saying “we.”

"If" and "we" are conditional statements which draw a contrast between children of God and children of the devil. John here draws a contrast using descriptive language between children of God and children of the devil.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (descriptive of unbelievers/children of the devil). In 1 John 2:9, John goes on to say - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. (descriptive of unbelievers/children of the devil)

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (descriptive of believers/children of God) Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light and ONLY believers/children of God are in the light. (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:4)

Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness and hates his brother is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. *Hermeneutics.

So, children of the devil walk in darkness and not in the light and children of God walk in the light and not in darkness. IF confirms these two separate positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other. We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The end result is works-righteousness.

John is not describing two separate camps of believers/children of God in which one camp of believers walks in the light and the other camp of believers does not walk in the light and one camp of believers practice righteousness and love their brother and the other camp does not practice righteousness and hates their brother, as you would suppose.

 

[mailmandan]

The scripture says “though a man may say” which specifically faith is not just a verbal aspect or a mental assent just like the devil v.19 which is to be contrasted to “the faith of Jesus” v.1. Real faith works.

Says/claims (key word) to have faith but has no works (to evidence their claim) is not authentic faith but an empty profession of faith. (James 2:14) In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

The core belief has nothing to do with faith and works to be saved. Works providing your brother with their needs when you are capable of doing so is to show you really are saved.

Exactly! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet authentic faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

Besides, works is just another name for “faith.”

Roman Catholics basically teach this same critical error which results in works-righteousness. To Roman Catholics (and apparently to you as well) faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. So, to be saved by faith is to be saved by works as well, according to Roman Catholics and also to you.

In Hebrews 11, it says BY FAITH Abraham offered Isaac upon the alter.

You don't seem to understand the difference between accomplishing a work by or "out of" faith (Hebrews 11:17) and being justified by or through faith. (Romans 4:2-3) Since you basically make no distinction between faith and works, the end result of your error culminates in salvation by faith and works. Just like Roman Catholics, you basically take faith and works and wrap them both up in a package then simply stamp "faith" on the package.

Yet, James says Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac upon the alter.

Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) by works in Genesis 22, many years "after" Abraham believed the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and was said to be justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works. (Romans 4:2-3)

Same thing. Works are a part of our faith. They inseparable. The are joined as one.

This remains your Achilles heel which keeps you from placing your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but works are not the very essence of faith and works are also not the basis or means by which we obtain or maintain salvation.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Are you ready to believe? This could be your turning point.

 

[John146]

The Book of James is generally written in the time Jewish people suffered expulsion from the Roman Empire under Emperor Claudius which took place around AD 41-54. It was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit around 49 AD as a generally accepted date. The temptation or trial of faith cannot be placed in the future or at the coming millennial reign of Christ though it discusses the return of Christ. These “brethren” were to seek the elders of the church in cases of anointing and in prayers especially when someone got sick.

At this time, the church was still primarily Jewish with a simple church structure. The message of the letter is of course also apply to all believers of today as it teaches the following:

• The Mercy of God
• The regeneration through Christ's resurrection.
• The assurance of salvation through faith
• The preaching of the gospel
• Redemption through the precious blood of Christ.

The theme does not talk about “faith and works” but rather “faith that works”.

I get it, I too have read many commentaries on James. I believe the bible is set up in a dispensational order as events play out in human history. Paul's letters are to the church, the body of Christ. His letters reveal the rapture of the body after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. After the rapture, the Lord turns his attention back to his physical people the Jews during their time of trouble. If your a Jew during this time period, the books of Hebrews, James, Peter and John will become your doctrine to follow. Are there things the church can glean from these books? Absolutely, but one better be careful looking at the totality of these books as doctrine to the Gentile body of Christ.

 

[John146]

Just to be clear, you're speaking of their physical deliverance correct? Eternal life is faith alone in Christ alone. If they perish during the Trib, they are saved eternally according to whether or not they trusted Christ alone for their salvation.

Yes, but they must endure to the end. This is why the time period is short. If anyone receives the mark, they will burn for eternity.

 

[selahsays]

You want “Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism” to be true but you set up a contradiction by saying that a genuine saving faith will always produce good works to some degree. This sounds like Calvinism but in reverse order. As if we no longer have free will and we are turned into robots whereby our programming will force us do good works no matter what. Why all the warnings in Scripture to be fruitful or to do good works if it was all just automatic to having faith? Again, I am not denying that God’s grace and mercy can help us to be fruitful like in 1 Corinthians 15:10, and Luke 7:36-50. But we are also told to affirm works constantly to others (Titus 3:8) so that they will not be unfruitful (Titus 3:14).

Your belief is a contradiction (i.e., it is confusion).

Hand #1. (On the one hand you say): “Works do not save.”​

Hand #2. (On the other hand you say): “Works will always be present to show a true saving faith.”​

In order to TRULY BELIEVE Hand #1, you have to claim that you can have no works and still be saved by a belief alone without works. That is the only consistent way for your statement by Hand #1 to actually work.

If you hold to Hand #2, then you must claim that works is a part of the salvation equation because you cannot ever have a faith lived out without any kind of works. Therefore, you would have to believe like I do in that works are necessary as a part of God’s plan of salvation. Why? Because you are saying that a true saving faith (belief alone) will always have works or fruit to show itself to be true.

This is why your belief is a contradiction and it is confusion.
But God is not the author of confusion. I am able to easily reconcile both the grace through faith without works verses by the apostle Paul, and being justified by works verse by James. This is something that your belief cannot allow. The way to reconcile Paul and James is to understand that….

#1. Paul is talking about Initial Salvation and he is fighting against the false heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” as mentioned in Acts 15. For if a person thought they had to be initially saved by circumcision instead of faith in Jesus, they would be making a work the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation. This would then be “Works ALONE Salvationism” that did not include being saved initially and foundationally by God’s grace.​

​

#2. James is talking about Sanctification or the next step in our faith involving God’s plan of salvation. Just look at 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9, and 1 Timothy 5:8. It is inescapable, unless somebody just simply does not like what the Bible says in these verses and they do backflip twists through hoops of fire to either avoid or change them.​

​

It also helps if you accept all the conditional statements in the Bible like “IF,” etcetera.
Salvation is conditional and Jesus and His followers warned about how sin can destroy our souls in the afterlife if we do not confess and forsake such sins. This is pretty basic to even believing the Bible at face value. But a sin and still be saved type belief is more comforting these days. So folks are just not able to see it.

So, in a nutshell, do you believe that Jesus totally saves us OR do you believe that we have to help Jesus save us? Is the work that Jesus did on the Cross complete OR do we have to help Him finish it?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If scripture does not harmonize with other scripture then we have contradictions in scripture and there are no contradictions in God's word.

Amen.

Might as well through the word out, it can not be trusted

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How so? One audience (the Israelites) are "accounted as righteous" by works but not another audience? Is that what you believe?

Abraham being "accounted as righteous" by works in James 2:21 would be in contradiction with Romans 4:2-3 and man being "accounted as righteous" in James 2:24 would be in contradiction with Romans 4:5-6. Period.

some people really have some odd beliefs in order to try to remove a contraditiocn

 

[Lamar]

So, in a nutshell, do you believe that Jesus totally saves us OR do you believe that we have to help Jesus save us? Is the work that Jesus did on the Cross complete OR do we have to help Him finish it?

Your statement is a false dichotomy.

The concept that we have no part in our ultimate fate is a false premise. If the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not an option, it the not truly good news.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

The use of "whoever" signifies choice.

 

[John146]

If scripture does not harmonize with other scripture then we have contradictions in scripture and there are no contradictions in God's word.

Is the following passage true of the body of Christ? Healing takes place by the laying on of hands? And the forgiveness of sins by the laying on of hands? In every instance? Shall save the sick...shall be forgiven him. Paul and James have different audiences with different doctrines for each. Until this is recognized, we will never come to an agreement.

James 5:
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

 

[John146]

some people really have some odd beliefs in order to try to remove a contraditiocn

You can say that again.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, in a nutshell, do you believe that Jesus totally saves us OR do you believe that we have to help Jesus save us? Is the work that Jesus did on the Cross complete OR do we have to help Him finish it?

He has already made his position clear several times.

 

[Kroogz]

Yes, but they must endure to the end. This is why the time period is short. If anyone receives the mark, they will burn for eternity.

Thank you.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Thank you.

he seems to think they go back to law in the trib period. so salvation can be lost.

salvation has been by grace through faith since adam. that will not change

 

[selahsays]

Your statement is a false dichotomy.

The concept that we have no part in our ultimate fate is a false premise. If the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not an option, it the not truly good news.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

The use of "whoever" signifies choice.

I’m not a Calvinist. I just believe we’re saved by Grace through faith, and certainly, I believe John 3:16. Be careful of false accusations, my friend.

 

[selahsays]

He has already made his position clear several times.

Has he? It wasn’t totally clear to me if he was a preterist or not; that’s why I asked.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Has he? It wasn’t totally clear to me if he was a preterist or not; that’s why I asked.

As far as I could see your questions had nothing to do with Preterism.

"So, in a nutshell, do you believe that Jesus totally saves us OR do you believe that we have to help Jesus save us? Is the work that Jesus did on the Cross complete OR do we have to help Him finish it?"