The Rapture

[abcdef]

Acts 1:9, "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

 

[abcdef]

Rev 12:5, "And she brought forth a man child,..."

Not children. Not 144000 children, one male child.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

You're confusing a haughty spirit with confidence in the truth of God's word. The scripture you used above is just a cop out! We are not to preach or teach the word of God as being wishy washy. Nor are we to say, maybe this or that will happen. But what does Revelation say:

"Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

Shall I read it saying, "maybe it will happen this way or that?" If I know the answers, I'm going to make them known. For this is the very reason why God draws certain people to study these topics, so that they can make it known to others. The problem is that when people hear something that has not been revealed to them, they reject it. I look forward to the Lord's vindication that I have been teaching the truth of His word. However, I should not be so surprised, for they did the same thing to Paul speaking against him and he was receiving his information directly from the Lord in visions, revelations and the Holy Spirit.

The same word that says, "If you will confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" is the same word that I am getting my information from regarding end-time events, or any other Biblical topic which I have studied diligently for many years. When you tell people these things and it hasn't been revealed to them yet, they reject what you're saying. I am not going to apologize for what God has revealed to me.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

How can I be thoroughly equipped for every good work if I am wishy-washy about what I know to be the truth? Don't confuse being confident in the word of God for haughtiness.

 

[PlainWord]

Who exactly are the 144,000. Support with Scripture.
What exactly id the mark of the beast. Support with Scripture.

The "Beast" was Nero, and by extension, the Roman Empire. The Jewish Empire was in an adulterous affair with Rome, taking their Caesar as their God.

The "Mark" was as follows:

A “Charagma is well attested to have been an imperial seal of the Roman Empire used on official documents during the first and second centuries.”The word mark in Revelations is from charagma. It is a stamp or a badge or an imprinted mark. It is from the word charax from charasso (to sharpen to a point). A charax is a pole or stake, a palisade. The only connection between a charax and a charagma is that the early charagmas were made in clay with a charax, a sharp stick.
Knowing your status quo during the censususually required a token to mark those who had been counted subjects of the Empire. The census called for by Augustus “was regarded as the badge of servitude, and incompatible with the Theocratic character of Israel.”
What is the essential characteristic of a charagma? Is it important to note that it is etched with a sharp object or on the forehead or in the hand? Or is it because a charagma is a badge of servitude? Does it mark who is bound and loosed, who is free and who must serve?
“Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them...” Ex 23:24
Is the essential characteristic of a mark its location, shape, form or is it what the mark stands for? A charagma had a specific purpose. It was a mark that expressed ownership, the right of possession, the right to---or the employer of---the use of an item, creature or human as a resource.
Be not thou [one] of them that strike hands, [or] of them that are sureties for debts. (Pr 22:26)
The word mark in Revelation is specifically a “badge of servitude”. Charagma appears 9 times in the Bible and is translated graven in Acts 17:29. This is the only place outside of Revelations that charagma appears, and it is also the only place it is not translated mark.
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven[a charagma] by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Acts 17:28,30
The word offspring is from genos which is translated, kind, kindred, or nation expressing that God is the original authority in our lives.
The word ought is from the Greek opheilo rather than the more common dei or tis. It is also translated owe, be bound, be (one’s) duty, be a debtor, be guilty, be indebted. Opheilo is defined “to owe, to owe money, be in debt for, that which is due, the debt.” It also appears in John 13:14 expressing this concept of indebtedness: “If I ... have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.”
The words “graven [charagma] by art and man’s device”, are talking about systems of authority created by men, which include social programs or schemes, making the word of God to none effect.
The word device here is from enthumesis, which means a thinking, consideration; thoughts. There are no more powerful false gods than those created in our minds and bound by pride. Men begin to worship, and give allegiance to their created institution more so than God.
We are commanded not to let the creations of our own thinking become our godhead, our patronus, or our father because we owe that title to our Father in Heaven. No man on earth should stand as our substitute father, with the authority to mark us with his charagma.
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Revelation 14:8-9
IF ANY MAN is translated from two words; e,i meaning if or whether, and tis, meaning a certain. Together they mean “whoever, whatever” and is followed by conditions which need to be examined.
WORSHIP is from proskuneo meaning an expression of profound reverence… used of homage shown to men of superior rank: such as a profound reverence for an office or a flag or the acceptance of an exercising authority.
Worshiping God has nothing to do with singing in Church. Worshiping has to do with accepting a superior authority. In the Hebrew worship is often translated from “hxv shachah” meaning “to bow down”. If God is the ultimate authority, then to bow down or worship Him is to bow to His authority. Singing may be a gesture along these lines but is concerned with a more substantive behavior. Are we taking His name in vain if we are bowing to other authorities to obtain their benefit. Are we to rule over our fellow man or be ruled by them?
The BEAST is from the word therion from the diminutive thera which means “trap” or “hunting to destroy.” Therion is translated beast, wild beast, venomous beast. In the Bible the beasts always represented governments, such as Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord.
There are two fundamental classifications of governments. The first type is based upon faith, hope, love and charity and obeying their natural Father or Creator in heaven. It is a voluntary union of people based on an equal love of neighbor and self, with forgiveness and thanksgiving. This government is created by families coming together in a fellowship, which shares a common acceptance of the Character of God’s Name or Nature, (e.g. justice and mercy) written on their hearts and minds.
The second type is the one that hunts or devours men. It operates on the basis of enforced control, imposed restrictions, exercising authority, and ultimately, bondage and oppression. It seduces the masses by promising security at the expense of their neighbor. It solicits their applications, which, upon acceptance, becomes binding social contracts, covenants, and leagues of allegiance.
“The real destroyers of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and Benefits.” Plutarch, 2000 years ago.
In such systems, men endlessly write and codify laws and become the ruling elite. Born or elected they share a desire to control and rule over their neighbors. They are corrupted by power and a willingness to covet.
And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and [will set them] to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. 1 Samuel 8:12
The righteous system is spiritually based, and dependent on faith, patience, charity and thanksgiving. It is populated by those who are willing to give---and forgive---under the perfect law of liberty. They maintain free choice by granting the same to others and accepting responsibility for themselves and showing mercy and justice to all.
In a government of liberty people must seek to rule themselves, not their neighbor. They hope to master only charity and mercy, forgiveness and service. They serve God by serving one another.
Both systems depend on faith or allegiance and are composed of dedicated believers. One is based on the authority of men over men, and has a man sitting as a central father (or patronus) or ruling authority. The other has God the Father of all men living in their hearts and minds.
Both types of governments are in essence a family. In one, the family is truly free, in the other men are Parens Patriae, "father of the people".
God the Father’s family is based on the natural family instituted by God with the solemn joining of Husband and Wife. These families freely associate as a nation through a voluntary network. The natural Family holds the dominion of God bound only in love of their neighbor.
Can a government be based on love and charity? Can people unite on a national scale and still remain a free people? Voluntary governments have been the rule in man’s history, “our modern reliance on government to make law and establish order is not the historical norm.”
“That the princes of Israel, heads of the house of their fathers, who [were] the princes of the tribes, and were over them that were numbered, offered:” Numbers 7:2
Note here the word OVER. It is from amad [dme], which is translated stood or stand or endure hundreds of times and is translated over only one time in the Bible. These fathers were not to rule over each other but came together as equals. In their homes they were to rule as Christ ruled the Church with love and patient service, self sacrifice, and obedience to the Father, enduring the burdens of their Natural Office.
In authoritarian governments, men substitute faith in God for allegiance to men who would be gods over them, the word god simply meaning ruling judges, and was used to address magistrates in court.
“If we will not be governed by God, then we will be ruled by tyrants.”
Israel was the kingdom of God, not the religion of Heaven on earth. Herod the Great had been baptizing his citizenry into his version of the kingdom of Heaven. This Hellenization of Judea was rejected by John the Baptist who had another vision for that kingdom of God.
"Herod's scheme of initiation into a new form of Judaism was immensely successful. Jews everywhere were willing to join the worldwide society ... Entry was for members only; they had to show at the door an admission token in the form of a white stone from the river Jordan which the missionaries gave them at baptism." "The missionaries... with their leather wallets full of white stones, would come back with the same wallets full of money, in foreign currency. Once put into Jewish currency by the money-changers, it would be stored in vaults, ready to be used by Herod for his vast building projects, or any subsequent causes."
Eventually many of the citizens of Judea accepted John's cousin, Yeshua, a.k.a Jesus, as king. Proclaimed by the people as Hosanna son of David, the anointed, and officially recognized King of the citizens of Judea by the Roman god, Pontious Pilate.
Eventually thousands of Judeans followed the Way of John and Jesus and were apart of His kingdom at hand; they were excluded from the the social schemes of Herod which we know as the Corban of the Pharisees.

 

[abcdef]

Can I help you with this? Christ wasn't equating Israel returning from her ~1,900 year scattering by using the parable of the fig tree referenced in Mt 24:34. It is actually the exact opposite of this. He is equating the wrath He will brings upon Israel and Jerusalem when He returns. Please see Lk 13 for the "Parable of the Fig Tree." What does Christ do to the Fig Tree and why?

What were "all these things" (Mt 24:34) that He was discussing? The events of the "Beginnings of Sorrows" and the "Great Tribulation" perhaps? That would be my guess. These are bad things (for those wicked and faithless Jews).

So, it is not the restoration of Israel that my good brother and friend A-F supposes, rather it is it's destruction, and the generation who witnesses it are none too happy.

Brother PlainWord, Matt 24:29-31,

I'm pretty sure that you would agree that Jesus was talking about the 70 dest and scattering up to this point.

-----

See how in v 29 it states that this takes place AFTER the trib. of those days, after 70 ad?

In v 31 it talks about a gathering, but the 70 ad event was the scattering and the ToG's.

How can these apply to the 70 ad period when they seem not to fit the time frame of ending at 70 ad?

I'm thinking that they take place long after the scattering has happened, when the ToG's are coming to an end and Israel is coming back together to restore Jerusalem.

Do you have a reasonable solution that shows a gathering, AFTER the trib of those days v 29?

 

[PlainWord]

Brother PlainWord, Matt 24:29-31,

I'm pretty sure that you would agree that Jesus was talking about the 70 dest and scattering up to this point.

-----

See how in v 29 it states that this takes place AFTER the trib. of those days, after 70 ad?

In v 31 it talks about a gathering, but the 70 ad event was the scattering and the ToG's.

How can these apply to the 70 ad period when they seem not to fit the time frame of ending at 70 ad?

I'm thinking that they take place long after the scattering has happened, when the ToG's are coming to an end and Israel is coming back together to restore Jerusalem.

Do you have a reasonable solution that shows a gathering, AFTER the trib of those days v 29?

Absolutely. Let's compare scripture to scripture and let the Word guide us:

Mat 24: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Cor 15: For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible.

1 Thes 4: [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Luke 18: And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

The "gathering" therefore is the resurrection of 70 AD at the last trumpet.

Rev 11: [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints

[SUB][/SUB]This all happened in 70 AD.

 

[abcdef]

Absolutely. Let's compare scripture to scripture and let the Word guide us:

Mat 24: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Brother PlainWord,

You are making the assumption that this is the 7th trumpet, but there are 7 trumpets. You see the trumpet here in Matt 24 as 7th, I see it as the 5th trumpet, the trumpet of separation.

The 5th trumpet blows to bring Israel out of the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem.

1 Cor 15: For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible.

1 Thes 4: [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

There was NO resurrection at the dest of Jeru. time period.

Luke 18: And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

Israel is the elect, yes.

The "gathering" therefore is the resurrection of 70 AD at the last trumpet.

Nothing you have said proves the resurrection took place in 70 ad, or that the trumpet mentioned is actually the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11: [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints

This all happened in 70 AD.

This does not show that the resurrection took place in the 70 ad time period.

If there had been a resurrection at the 70 ad time period all living Christians all over the planet would have been taken to heaven with Jesus and the dead would have been seen resurrecting.

The 70 time period was not a resurrection coming, not a gathering.

Again, the timing of this event happens AFTER the trib v 29.

 

[Endoscopy]

If you will look at the identifying traits given in Scripture, It is not any religious organization, but a nation.

The designation whore is reserved for evil churches. The power being welded by the great whore goes across countries. Therefore the whore is a religion that draws a huge number of people. Try again.

 

[Roadkill]

What gives you the impression that spiritual beings cannot eat? Have you read Heb 13:2? They are from the heavenly dimension not bound by our physical laws. They can enter and leave our dimension. While in our dimension, they appear as us, which is what Heb 13 teaches.

Gen 6:4 implies that angels can actual breed with humans, or did back then. We know so little about the life to come.

That's my point. To eat in a Transfigured Body or To eat in the Body while in this plane requires a body in both. Jesus demonstrated this as he is the prototype of what our bodies will become. But while the body will have the ability to transverse both planes at will, while here it will be in the flesh, while in heaven in the spirit but both in some form of body.

 

[tanakh]

The last days spoken of by almost every writer of the NT including John in Revelation took place within their Generation and was predicted by Jesus in Matthew 23/24. In the KJV version the end of the world is used in translation which is incorrect and should have been rendered the end of the age. This has caused a lot of confusion. The end was not of the world but of the OT age in 70AD. Then the OT system was finally destroyed forever due to Christs sacrifice and resurrection. All that has been
done to bring Israel back has been through human effort as will any possible rebuilding of a Temple. There is no mention by Christ of any other temple being built by divine will. The only Temple he mentions is his own body.

AD70 was a judgement on Israel in vengeance of killing their Messiah and everyone from Abel to Zechariah as Christ stated in Matthew 23. The Parable and curse of the fig tree were predictions of this event because the Fig Tree bore no fruit only leaves that represent Mans effort to cover Sin. They are still sprouting leaves to this day. That's why Christ cursed it, not because he was in a bad mood, but as a sign to Israel and a warning/lesson to his Disciples.

People speculate where Babylon is today. It is Jerusalem. Israel and Jerusalem in particular is called a Harlot throughout the
OT. It is the only place that is so called. It rode the Beast that represents Rome. In Revelation the Beast has seven heads that represent seven Roman Emperors It was Rome who destroyed her in AD 70 and burned her with fire with the help of the Edomites Israels sworn enemies. At Christs trial before Pilate the crowd shouted ''We have no king but Caesar'' God took them at their word. It is the only City that killed the Prophets and committed spiritual adultery against God by Idol worship. It is the main target of Revelation where Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt.

 

[Endoscopy]

The last days spoken of by almost every writer of the NT including John in Revelation took place within their Generation and was predicted by Jesus in Matthew 23/24. In the KJV version the end of the world is used in translation which is incorrect and should have been rendered the end of the age. This has caused a lot of confusion. The end was not of the world but of the OT age in 70AD. Then the OT system was finally destroyed forever due to Christs sacrifice and resurrection. All that has been
done to bring Israel back has been through human effort as will any possible rebuilding of a Temple. There is no mention by Christ of any other temple being built by divine will. The only Temple he mentions is his own body.

AD70 was a judgement on Israel in vengeance of killing their Messiah and everyone from Abel to Zechariah as Christ stated in Matthew 23. The Parable and curse of the fig tree were predictions of this event because the Fig Tree bore no fruit only leaves that represent Mans effort to cover Sin. They are still sprouting leaves to this day. That's why Christ cursed it, not because he was in a bad mood, but as a sign to Israel and a warning/lesson to his Disciples.

People speculate where Babylon is today. It is Jerusalem. Israel and Jerusalem in particular is called a Harlot throughout the
OT. It is the only place that is so called. It rode the Beast that represents Rome. In Revelation the Beast has seven heads that represent seven Roman Emperors It was Rome who destroyed her in AD 70 and burned her with fire with the help of the Edomites Israels sworn enemies. At Christs trial before Pilate the crowd shouted ''We have no king but Caesar'' God took them at their word. It is the only City that killed the Prophets and committed spiritual adultery against God by Idol worship. It is the main target of Revelation where Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt.

The abomination of desolation has yet to take place. Eschatology of the end times absolutely has not taken place. The tribulation that will almost wipe out life if not halted has obviously not taken place. 70 AD is very mild as to the prophecy of Daniel and Revelation. Daniel says it is a closed book until the end times and the same is true of Revelation. When did the rapture happen? Your view of eschatology is very flawed. Too many future events have not happened. The 2 prophets killed and seen by the whole world can only happen now with the events today being seen world wide. The miracle of live TV world wide. I remember watching the coronation of Queen Elizabeth live. That took a special hookup then but it is done daily now. Go back and take into account the events that has not happened yet.

 

[Endoscopy]

Tanakh

Read the following from Matthew 24 with Jesus talking about the end times. What of this has happened yet. Absolutely not 70 AD.

Matthew 24:1 to 44 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

1. Jesus departed from the temple [a]area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the buildings of the temple and point them out to Him.

2 But He answered them, Do you see all these? Truly I tell you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?

4 Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error].

5 For many will come in (on the strength of) My name [appropriating the name which belongs to Me], saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened or troubled, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in place after place;

8 All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].

9 Then they will hand you over to suffer affliction and tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

10 And then many will be offended and repelled and will [e]begin to distrust and desert [Him Whom they ought to trust and obey] and will stumble and fall away and betray one another and pursue one another with hatred.

11 And many false prophets will rise up and deceive and lead many into error.

12 And the love of the great body of people will grow cold because of the multiplied lawlessness and iniquity,

13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

14 And this good news of the kingdom (the Gospel) will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

15 So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place—let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]—

16 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;

17 Let him who is on the housetop not come down and go into the house to take anything;

18 And let him who is in the field not turn back to get his overcoat.

19 And alas for the women who are pregnant and for those who have nursing babies in those days!

20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be [again].

22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

23 If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!—do not believe it.

24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).

25 See, I have warned you beforehand.

26 So if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness (desert)—do not go out there; if they tell you, Behold, He is in the secret places or inner rooms—do not believe it.

27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and [h]is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 Wherever there is a fallen body (a corpse), there the vultures (or eagles) will flock together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
4
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.

32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.

33 So also when you see these signs, [m]all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.

34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.

35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

38 For just as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, [men] marrying and [women] being given in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah went into the ark,

39 And they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away—so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

40 At that time two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.

41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

42 Watch therefore [give strict attention, be cautious and active], for you do not know in what kind of a day [whether a near or remote one] your Lord is coming.

43 But understand this: had the householder known in what [part of the night, whether in a night or a morning] watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be undermined and broken into.

44 You also must be ready therefore, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him.

 

[Endoscopy]

Tanakh
When was the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place? At one point a gold statue of a Roman Caesar was to be put in the temple but an accident broke it first. So that never happened before the temple complex was ordered destroyed by Titus. At that point the prophecy of Jesus happened and Josephus watched it and recorded it. He stated that he watched the destruction of the temple and if he hadn't watched it he wouldn't have known where it stood. The stones were later used for other purposes.

The walls and everything related to the temple was destroyed. The wailing wall was part of a Roman fort. As part of this event almost all of Jewish Jerusalem was also destroyed. The wall was left standing because it was Roman.

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

Brother PlainWord,

You are making the assumption that this is the 7th trumpet, but there are 7 trumpets. You see the trumpet here in Matt 24 as 7th, I see it as the 5th trumpet, the trumpet of separation.

The 5th trumpet blows to bring Israel out of the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem.

What do you base that on? We see things so differently. I see the 5th trumpet in Rev 9 as the arrival of Titus and his attack on the walls of Jerusalem in Feb of 70 AD. Trumpets have always been blown to announce the arrival of an enemy and impending war. It's sounded to alarm the people and gather the solders.

There was NO resurrection at the dest of Jeru. time period.

How can you know this? Could you see a soul leaving Hades and going to heaven and receiving its spiritual body all happening within the spiritual realm if you were a mortal on earth? Today when someone dies, do you see them leave their bodies and enter heaven? Give me a verse where a mortal person witnesses the "resurrection of the saints" please. I want a verse where it is clear that it is a mortal witnessing spirits rising.

Israel is the elect, yes.

Saved Israel only at this point in time. The rest of Israel (the unsaved) are the subject of the "WRATH" that we see here:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

This vengeance is the WRATH OF GOD AND THE LAMB. It is aimed squarely at the unbelieving Jews of 70 AD (THAT GENERATION which killed Messiah). We see it first told here:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

This wrath against the unbelieving Jew (esp their leaders) is mentioned again, and again,

John 3: He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Rom 1: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

Rom 2: But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

Who were following the Law? Not the Romans and certainly not any Gentile.

Rom 4: because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Eph 2: among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Who is God speaking to here? Who is God and the Lamb mad at? Can you think of a worse crime than killing the Son of God?

Heb 3: So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

Heb 4: For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

Who are the "they" not entering (His) rest? They are the unbelieving Jews who have been persecuting and killing the believing Jews.[SUB][/SUB]

Nothing you have said proves the resurrection took place in 70 ad, or that the trumpet mentioned is actually the 7th trumpet.

We have 7 trumpets, right? This is Jericho imagery. What happened to Jericho when the 7th and final trumpet sounded? The 7th was the last. The first 6 were "warnings" of what was finally going to come. The breach, the fire and final destruction of the temple, the city and the Law all happened when the 7th sounded. This is why the 12 tribes were angry (Rev 11:18).

We are told that this is when the dead would rise. Daniel 12 talks about it first, then Jesus confirms it and if that wasn't enough, Paul double confirms the timing. Sadly we cannot see events in the spiritual realm from our physical realm. But, they can see into our realm and some can actually visit us, presumably with permission from God. Some of us can visit them too, like Ezekiel, Paul and John for example. But they were all "in the spirit" when they did.

If there had been a resurrection at the 70 ad time period all living Christians all over the planet would have been taken to heaven with Jesus and the dead would have been seen resurrecting.

The 70 time period was not a resurrection coming, not a gathering.

It was both a resurrection and a gathering. See Mt 13. Why did Jesus use the "wheat and tare" analogy/parable? Because you cannot visibly tell an unbelieving Jew (tare) from a believing Jew (wheat). They look identical to the observer. Jesus compares and contrasts the Sons of Light to the Sons of Darkness all the time. He says:

Lk 12: [SUP]51 [/SUP]Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. [SUP]52 [/SUP]For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. [SUP]53 [/SUP]Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

Then we see it told again and it actually happened leading up to 70 AD. 10 of the 11 were indeed martyred, most by their own people.

Lk 21: [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.

Who was betrayed? Who was put to death? Who was hated?

Again, the timing of this event happens AFTER the trib v 29.

The Trib was the events leading up to that final day in 70 AD. The conditions inside the city were the tribulation of those days. Immediately after those days ended and Titus won, that's when the resurrection happened. All those who died in Christ immediately went to heaven. Those of us (them) who were still alive and remaining, we met them in heaven when we die. We shall not all sleep (go to Hades to rest) but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, when we die.

Please study why Christ was angry and who was He angry at?

 

[PlainWord]

That's my point. To eat in a Transfigured Body or To eat in the Body while in this plane requires a body in both. Jesus demonstrated this as he is the prototype of what our bodies will become. But while the body will have the ability to transverse both planes at will, while here it will be in the flesh, while in heaven in the spirit but both in some form of body.

Perhaps we are saying essentially the same thing? I explain it this way:

Let's say we mortals live in a circle (the earth) and all around us, outside our circle is the spiritual realm completely surrounding us. We cannot look outside our circle but they can look in. A spiritual being (presumably with permission) may enter our physical circle. When they do, their spiritual body appears like ours. We can see them, touch them, eat and drink with them, and apparently do "other things" with them. When they return to their spiritual realm, they are no longer visible to us.

Apparently there is a "door" or "doors" between our realm and their realm. Not a singular door in a single location but a surrounding door, all around us. When this door is open, spiritual beings appear as a surrounding bright light to us mortals. See Acts 9:3, 22:6, 26:13, and Rev 18:1. Christ often describes Himself as "the Light of the world." This analogy has a double meaning, both literal and figurative.

Paul equates the glory of stars to the glory of spiritual beings in 1 Cor 15. This is how things in the spiritual realm appear to us when the door or window is opened but the spirits remain in their realm and don't enter ours. They can speak to us from their realm as Jesus did to Paul on the road to Damascus and as the angel appeared to Mary, etc. But when they actually enter, as they did to Lot, they appear as us and their bodies, as ours.

 

[abcdef]

A-F,

Brother PW,

Sorry that I have to break up your post and answer a little at a time.

What do you base that on?

The seals/trumpets are both part of the story of the little scroll and are in a consecutive time line that ends at the 7th trumpet.

The 6th seal is the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad. This is followed by the trumpets which show the time after 70 ad until the rapt/resur and the end of this planet.

1-4 trumpets are God's withdrawing His blessings after 70 ad on the natural branches for rejecting the gospel kingdom. This time period is the times of the gentiles (ToG's), primarily.

The 5th trumpet Rev 9:1-11, continues to show God's withdrawing of blessings on the natural branches that have rejected Jesus and the kingdom. (The ones who have accepted the gospel kingdom are sealed with the HS and cannot be deceived Rev 9:4)

But now an enemy appears at the 5th trumpet, the Roman iron dragon beast nation. (We both agree that this is Rome, you say Titus.) The nation comes back from the abyss, the place of the dead. Where has the Roman Empire gone to? did it end? Did the iron in the statue of Dan 2 come to an end and then start up again?

The sea beast (Roman Empire, civil), dies in 476 ad. But the earth beast continues (Roman Empire, religious, Caesar worship, worship the creation). (So far no gaps)

So the Roman Empire dies, then Caesar worship continues. But then the abyss opens and the sea beast crawls out of the abyss, he comes back from the dead, becomes a nation, civil recognized nation, in exactly the same spot, again (1929). Caesar Worship, Satan worship, as a nation.

The time line is one place.

We see things so differently.

Not really, we share more in common than differences I believe. It's just that the differences are emphasized more often. If we didn't have differences, what would we argue about? Ha Ha. Differences are great tools for learning if used with love.

I see the 5th trumpet in Rev 9 as the arrival of Titus and his attack on the walls of Jerusalem in Feb of 70 AD.

We both agree that this ends in Jerusalem. You say past, I say future. If it is past, 66-70 ad, then how did the Roman Empire die, in order to return from the dead, the abyss?

Trumpets have always been blown to announce the arrival of an enemy and impending war. It's sounded to alarm the people and gather the solders.

Well there were 4 trumpets before the 5th, do they all have this theme?

How can you know this? Could you see a soul leaving Hades and going to heaven and receiving its spiritual body all happening within the spiritual realm if you were a mortal on earth? Today when someone dies, do you see them leave their bodies and enter heaven? Give me a verse where a mortal person witnesses the "resurrection of the saints" please. I want a verse where it is clear that it is a mortal witnessing spirits rising.

Rev 11:12, " ..; and their enemies beheld them."

 

[abcdef]

A-F,

Saved Israel only at this point in time. The rest of Israel (the unsaved) are the subject of the "WRATH" that we see here:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

This vengeance is the WRATH OF GOD AND THE LAMB. It is aimed squarely at the unbelieving Jews of 70 AD (THAT GENERATION which killed Messiah). We see it first told here:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

This wrath against the unbelieving Jew (esp their leaders) is mentioned again, and again,

John 3: He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Rom 1: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

Rom 2: But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

Who were following the Law? Not the Romans and certainly not any Gentile.

Rom 4: because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Eph 2: among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Who is God speaking to here? Who is God and the Lamb mad at? Can you think of a worse crime than killing the Son of God?

Heb 3: So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

Heb 4: For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

Who are the "they" not entering (His) rest? They are the unbelieving Jews who have been persecuting and killing the believing Jews.

I agree, you keep forgetting that I agree with you on passages about the 70 ad destruction.

It's what comes after that, after 70 ad, that you are not seeing.

Jesus told the apostle John that he would see the destruction of Jerusalem before John died, (this generation Matt 24), that prophecy itself points to a time after 70 ad, a time after 70 ad when John dies.

The "wrath" of God on the natural branches didn't end when Jerusalem was destroyed, it continued after that. They were chased and killed long after 70 ad, Masada.

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

Brother PW,

Sorry that I have to break up your post and answer a little at a time.

Quite alright good buddy. I will probably have to do the same.

The seals/trumpets are both part of the story of the little scroll and are in a consecutive time line that ends at the 7th trumpet.

Yes, and so are the bowls. The "seals" merely seal the scroll and act like an index or Table of Contents. The war (of the Jews) ends and the resurrection takes place at the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl.

The 6th seal is the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad. This is followed by the trumpets which show the time after 70 ad until the rapt/resur and the end of this planet.

I disagree. Seals only seal. Christ unseals (opens the seals) of the same scroll Daniel saw. This was reserved for the time of the end (of Israel) and that age.

1-4 trumpets are God's withdrawing His blessings after 70 ad on the natural branches for rejecting the gospel kingdom. This time period is the times of the gentiles (ToG's), primarily.

No. Again, John uses trumpets mirroring Jericho imagery of events leading up to the destruction of Jeru. Here also John uses plague imagery from Egypt which also ties to Deu 28. Throughout Revelation the "earth" represents Israel and the "sea" represents Rome. They never represent the entire planet and all the world's oceans as so many wrongly think.

Let me give you concrete details for these trumpets rather than just the general meanings you suggest which you don't back with any evidence. You will see that everything fits in the first century with most dealing with the Jewish War with Rome. Each trumpet has a spiritual and literal meaning as I will provide below. Each trumpet event is in chronological order leading up to the final destruction of Jeru in 70 AD. I truly hope you will read it all as it is a slam dunk.

Trump 1: [SUP]7 [/SUP]The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Spiritual fulfillment: The blood that falls from heaven in v. 7 points back to Jesus’ public trial and crucifixion. While Pilate washed his hands over Jesus’ death, the Jewish mob claimed responsibility by saying, “His blood be on us and our children (Matthew 27:24-25).” The fact that, that generation of Israelites was punished with blood from heaven appears to be a divine omen that first century Israel was being punishment at the end of the age for the crime of killing the Messiah and his people as is indicated in Revelation 17:6. In Revelation 8:7 Christ appears to remember what His killers said and he honors their words, “His blood be on us and our children,” by raining blood on that wicked generation.

Literal Fulfillment: The battle with Israel started in the north with Rome laying siege to Jewish towns in Galilee. Rome had a scorched earth policy, literally burning the vegetation and cutting down trees to use in the various sieges of northern towns. Rome wanted to leave nothing for the Jews to use. Josephus records this:

"He [Titus] also at the same time gave his soldiers leave to set the suburbs on fire, and ordered that they should bring timber together, and raise banks against the city. . . . So the trees were now cut down immediately, and the suburbs left naked”

Trump 2: [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Spiritual Fulfillment: Mountain is a word frequently used in the Bible to symbolize a kingdom or city since cities were often built on mountains for military defense (Psalms 2:6; 48:1; Isaiah 66:20; Jeremiah 51:25; Joel 3:17). For example, the city of Jerusalem is often called the “Mountain of the Lord” throughout the Bible. Sea represents the Gentile nations (Daniel 7:2-3; Revelation 17:15, Psalm 65:7; 144:7; Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 60:5; Jeremiah 47:1-2; 51:55-56; Ezekiel 26:3). Because sea and Abyss, the afterlife realm of the dead, are synonyms, sea simultaneously signifies both foreign nations and the Abyss, the afterlife realm of the dead.

The symbol of a mountain being cast into the sea is a common metaphor in the Bible used to represent two complimentary messages. Foreign nations and their armies represent the sea or Abyss, the realm of the dead, because these armies cause so much death when in the act of war and military conquest. Thus the city or mountain victimized by foreign military aggression is sometimes depicted in the Bible as a mountain descending into the Abyss, the land of the dead, when attacked by aggressive foreign powers. Jeremiah 51:25, 42 is a prominent example of this symbolism. In these verses, mountain represents a city or kingdom and sea represents its foreign conquerors and the Abyss simultaneously:

“I am against you, you destroying mountain [Babylon], you who destroy the whole earth,” declares the Lord. “I will stretch out my hand against you, roll you off the cliffs, and make you a burned-out mountain. . . . The sea will rise over Babylon; its roaring waves will cover her.”

​

Literal Fulfillment: The cities of Joppa and Taricheae were situated on the coast of the Sea of Galilee. Upon the arrival of the Roman military, the Jewish rebels of these two cities retreated out to sea. There the rough waves and heavy winds at the coast of Joppa drowned many people. Their ships were also destroyed as they struck each other and the rocks along the coast. Many people fell into the water and according to Josephus were “dashed to pieces” against the rocks “insomuch that the sea was bloody a long way[.]” The city of Taricheae did not fare better. Upon fleeing to the Sea of Galilee, the rebels of Taricheae were killed by the Romans. Concerning their deaths at sea, Josephus writes:

One might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped. And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over the country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled.”

​

Trump 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.

Spiritual Fulfillment: Though it is possible that Revelation 8:10-11 describes a real comet and indeed one was present back then a(s Josephus records), this star from heaven ultimately seems to symbolize or represents one of the seven angels of the seven plagues. This star likely is or represents the angel of the third plague. In Revelation 12:4, Satan is said to cast a third of the stars to the earth. These stars are clearly the angels of heaven. Stars frequently represent angels in the Bible (Deuteronomy 4:19; Judges 5:20; Job 25:5; 38:7; Psalm 148:3; Isaiah 14:12-14; Daniel 12:3; Revelation 9:1-2).The fact that Wormwood is an angel is implied in Revelation 9:1-3. The fifth trumpet is very similar to the third trumpet in that both plagues begin with a falling star.

However, in Revelation 9:1-3 it is clear that this star is an angel or being from heaven as it carried the key to the bottomless pit which it later opens with this key. In Revelation 9:1-3 the fifth plague is ultimately caused by the actions of this falling star introduced at the start of this plague. This star is, of course, an angel or heavenly being. The same meaning is implied in the third plague of Revelation 8:10-11. In Revelation 8:10-11 a falling star causes the waters to become bitter. Thus in both Revelation 9:1-3 and Revelation 8:10-11 the star that falls from heaven at the start of these plagues appears to represent the angel or heavenly being whose job it is to enact that particular plague.

The falling star of Revelation 8:10-11 also appears to be an omen foreshadowing impending doom. Don Preston notes that the falling star of the third trumpet calls to mind the fall of Edom and Zion in the Old Testament. Concerning the defeat of Edom by its enemies, Obadiah 1:4 reads, “’Though you [Edom] build high like the eagle, though you set your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down,’ declares the Lord.” Poetically describing the fall of Zion in the sixth century B.C. by the Babylonians, Lamentations 2:1 reads, “He has cast [Zion] from heaven to earth the glory of Israel[.]” As implied in Obadiah 1:4 and Lamentations 2:1, the falling star of Revelation 8:10-11 is also an omen pointing to the fall of a kingdom.

Before identifying this kingdom, let us first discuss the similarities between the third bowl and third trumpet and the first plague of Exodus. The third trumpet is also the third bowl of Rev 16:4. The third bowl explains why the waters became bitter in Revelation 8:11. In the third bowl, the rivers turned to blood. According to Levitical Law, Jews were not permitted to drink blood. Therefore, this bloody water would be undrinkable to them. These two verses are a continuation of the plague of blood where emphasis is placed on the waters being undrinkable, as they had been to the Egyptians in Exodus 7:21. The Egyptians in Exodus also did not drink the water because it gave off a foul odor. Just as the Nile River had turned bloody and smelled of decay, the same thing occurred at the Jordan River during the Jewish War.

Literal Fulfillment: Jews fleeing from Gadara were cornered by the Romans at the Jordan River and there 15,000 Jews were killed. Concerning this massacre at the river, Josephus writes, “[The] Jordan could not be passed over, by reason of the dead bodies that were in it, but because the lake Asphaltitis [the Dead Sea] was also full of dead bodies, that were carried down into it by the river.”

Wormwood is a plant with a strong, bitter flavor. This is a fitting name for a star that turns the waters bitter. It must also be said that the waters of Israel were not just bitter because of the presence of blood, the water of the lake Asphalitis was already bitter. Concerning this lake, Josephus writes, “The nature of the lake Asphaltitis is also worth describing. It is, as I have said already, bitter and unfruitful."

Concerning the presence of bitterness or wormwood during the Jewish War and its aftermath, Rabbi Abin says the following interesting quote in the Midrash Lamentations:

He hath filled me with bitterness (Lam. 3:15): on the first nights of the Passover Festival. He hath sated me with wormwood: on the ninth of Ab [the day in which the first and second temples were destroyed]. What He filled me with on the first nights of Passover, therewith He sated me on the nights of the ninth of Ab, viz. wormwood. The nights of the week on which the first day of Passover occurs is always the same as that on which the ninth of Ab falls.

​

Is Revelation 8:10-11 also fulfilled during and after the Jewish War in the bitter lamentation of the Jews referred to as “wormwood” according to the Midrash?

Similar to the second trumpet of vs. 8-9, some or perhaps all of these trumpet plagues appear to have dual fulfillment in the fall of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was in a marriage covenant with God (Isaiah 54:5). However, in Revelation 17 she is pictured committing adultery against God, her spiritual husband. In Revelation 17 Jerusalem, the whore or Babylon, is pictured sitting on the beast as if in the act of adultery with the beast which is Rome. Because of her adulterous affair with Rome, Jerusalem is called the whore of Babylon in Revelation 17. And as a consequence is given Rome’s epithet, Babylon, throughout the Book of Revelation because according to 1 Corinthians 6:16 “[T]he one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her[.] For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” Because Rome and Jerusalem became one flesh as a consequence of their adulterous affair, both cities are called Babylon throughout the Apocalypse.

Numbers 5:11-31 lays out a ceremonial custom by which a married man may test to see if his wife has committed adultery. In Numbers 5:11-31 the wife under suspicion is made to drink bitter water which is expected to bring a curse if she is guilty of infidelity. This prophetic custom is fulfilled in Revelation 8:10-11. In Revelation 8:10-11 Jerusalem is made to drink bitter waters which brings a curse in v. 11 because of her adultery with the beast mentioned in Revelation 17. Interestingly, sixth century Jerusalem was also charged with adultery in Jeremiah 9:2 and thus made to drink water made bitter by wormwood in Jeremiah 9:15. The same message is also conveyed to sixth century Jerusalem in Ezekiel 23. Here Jerusalem and Samaria are portrayed as sisters who together commit adultery against God. As a result Samaria is destroyed by the Assyrians, and Jerusalem is made to drink from the same cup that brings ruin in Ezekiel 23:32-34. This cup is, of course, a cup filled with bitter water which brings a curse which first century Jerusalem may also be made to drink in Revelation 8:10-11.

Trump 4: [SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

Spiritual Fulfillment: When God descends in judgment on a nation, He is said to part the heavens and ride the dark clouds of the sky which obscures the brightness of his presence according to Psalm 18:7-15 and Joel 2:1-11. The cloud that appears to hide the likeness of God is called the Glory Cloud. (Though to be perfectly accurate God can only be seen by people in visions. Whenever God was said to come on the clouds in judgment on a nation, he did so amidst the Glory Cloud. As seen in Ezekiel 32:7-8, the same cloud that appears to hide the likeness of God also darkens the sky, making the sun, moon and stars invisible. The fact that all the heavenly lights are darkened by the Glory Cloud means that the spirit of God is present on the clouds of heaven to enact vengeance on his people.In Revelation 8:12, John indicates that one-third of the sun, moon and stars are darkened. In the next sentence, he explains what this means. One-third of the sun, moon and stars darken because a third of the day and a third of the night are without light. In other words, cloud cover during a violent storm indicative of the presence of God in the Glory Cloud appears to have darkened these lights for eight hours or one-third of the day.

The darkening of these heavenly bodies foreshadows and appears to symbolize the elimination of a leader and his people. Similar imagery is found in Isaiah 13:9-10, Ezekiel 32:7-8 and Amos 8:9. In these verses, as is the case in Revelation 8:12, the darkening of the sun, moon and stars signifies political upheaval and the fall or death of a ruler and his people. Ezekiel 32 predicts the fall of Pharaoh and a great slaughter of his people (Ezekiel 32:12). This prediction was accurately fulfilled approximately six hundred years before the birth of Christ. At this time the sun, moon and stars are darkened by the dark clouds of the Glory Cloud: “When I snuff you [Pharaoh] out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you; I will bring darkness over your land . . . (Ezekiel 32:7-8)” The darkening of the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 8:12 as is the case in Ezekiel 32:7-8 is also presumably the result of the masking effect of the dark clouds of the Glory Cloud, the quintessential sign of the coming of the Lord on the clouds of heaven in judgment.

Literal Fulfillment: In Wars of the Jews, Josephus describes a prodigious thunderstorm of so considerable a nature that it seemed to him to be almost supernatural, as if God himself were present in the sky [in the Glory Cloud]. The thick cloud cover of this storm would have naturally blotted out the heavenly lights bringing literal darkness over Jerusalem. And as is the case in Isaiah 13:9-10, Ezekiel 32:7-8 and Amos 8:9, this darkness also brought strife and the death of a leader and his people. In the midst of this storm which would be expected to darken the sun, moon and stars due to the thick clouds of the Glory Cloud, an army of Idumeans broke into Jerusalem and killed thousands of people including the high priest, Ananus II. Thus Revelation 8:12 appears to follow the precedence set in Ezekiel 32. In both cases the sun, moon and stars were darkened by thick cloud cover with the darkening of these luminaries foreshadowing the death of a leader and his people.

To be continued...

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave
Please study "Duel Prophecy" It happens a lot in the Bible.

Can I assume from your response that you agree the Beast in Rev 13 was Nero but we can expect another Nero in the future? What passage tells of the next Nero?

Why assume, just ask me if that is what i believe, instead of assuming that i believe this way or that way. Do you like it when people assume something about you? Or would you rather they ask you if that is what you believe instead of assuming they believe this or that?

No, i do not believe the Beast was Nero. I believe the Beast the Bible refers to is yet to come. And i believe satan has people believing that Beast was Nero, so they will not be looking for another one to come, Hence the reason i suggested studying Duel Prophesies.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

I guess we will see come June 1st after May.
But I must warn you about something also. Consider Acts 16: 16-18. This was a Spirit that had short term prophecy. If you think demons and spirits can't prophesize you are wrong.

i have never said they can't.

God had sent evil spirits to prophesize to the false prophets in the Old Testament to fool them. They can but the difference is that their prophecies are not 100 percent accurate like the ones from God. They can and do use prophecy to fool people into believing they are from God the Father or they are gods themselves. This is scriptural.

Agreed.

They can also practice Balaamism which is trading or selling spiritual gifts for profit. The tests are given in the Bible for a reason and must be answered as instructed. They will not confess the gospel of Jesus Christ to anyone.

True, but when they are asked about it, they will skirt around the answer, in so much that it appeared they are agreeing with the Gospel. For example, someone ask the spirit "Do you believe that Jesus came in the flesh?" And the spirit answers "Everyone believes that Jesus came in the flesh" So the asker thinks that spirit is from God, but the spirit did not say he believed it, he only made a comment that made the asker believe that he did.

Removed from this Earth( that is being taken out of the world of men) and being placed under chains of darkness is a special punishment to them before the Judgement of Hell is imposed upon them. Think of this world as a dentention center(jail) and they roam this jail picking on juveniles thrown in with them(humans). They are allowed to tempt us and torment us within the will of God. When they exceed this, and many times they do,

Example please? you say they exceed that many times, surely you can give an example of one of these many times they have exceeded that. Or is that merely something that you believe?

they can be placed under chains of darkness which is a Solitary Confinement of sorts for them until the appointed time they are cast into Hell( The Real Prison).

These are your opinions. As if satan does not have the power to control his own demons. satan is the god of this world, and he is most certainly the god of the demons. They don't do anything they are not suppose to do. satan and his demons have one goal, and they achieve that goal efficiently, if demons are doing things wrong, in order to get punishments, then they are divided against themselves and their kingdom will not stand. lol, satan punishing his own. They will not break any covenant between God and them. They have one chance to NOT get sent into Hell, and they are not going to do anything to jeopardize that chance.

None of them want this but some are crazy enough to try and break God's will anyways.

Your opinion. None of them would do that, first off they would only be hurting themselves by doing so, and secondly satan himself would not allow them to do so.

The angels here protect us from them as we each have one that goes where we go to guard against them. Unless directed by God otherwise these angels are not allowed to interfere with the affairs of men. They can not interfere with a crime being done to a person unless special permission from God allows this. They are here specifically to help with demonic attacks. They will not help if the person has fooled with the occult and has invited these things into their Lives until God tells them to.

I'm not saying demons are free to Leave this Earth. I am saying if they Break the Rule on their part of 1st John chapter 4 verses 1-3 by directly confessing the Gospel of Jesus Christ that they will immediately be placed under darkness.

They cannot break that rule.

All of them know this and they will most likely argue the gospel or leave your presence depending on the situation.

If demons are under chains of darkness how do you explain demonic possession?

i never said they were. You say they can be.

How do you explain that Jesus was running across them during his time on this earth? They are here and they are among us, have no doubt of that. But he who is in us is stronger than he who is in them.

True, Amen. And he that is in them, prevents them from breaking any rules that is in the covenant between God and satan.

Angels can protect me from the demons( yes they know where I am, I have five assigned to harass me) but they can only do what God will allow before the Angels interfere.

Who told you that you have 5 assigned to you to harass you?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave