The Rapture

Ahwatukee · Mar 6, 2018

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Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

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I assure you, that I do have all the details correct. MattG who is believing in preterism, believes that all end-time events have taken place and he believes and teaches that the resurrection has already taken place and that Jesus has already returned. As you can see from the scripture above, Paul said those who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place were as follows:

* That it was/is godless chatter

* They would become more ungodly

* That this teaching would spread like gangrene (which it has)

* By this teaching that they had departed from the truth

* That this teaching was destroying the faith of some

The teaching that the resurrection has already taken place is just one of the false teachings that MattG is proclaiming. So, how is it that I do not have all the details.

Yeah, the difference is that I am adhering to scripture, where MattG is ignoring it. So no, I am not a false teacher since I am pointing out the error in what he is teaching according to scripture. There are many beliefs that are detrimental to salvation. If for example one is teaching the need for words along side of the Lord's sacrifice, this is detrimental to ones salvation. If you are teaching that the resurrection has taken place, if you believe Paul to be a false apostle, if you are preaching another gospel other than the one written, Paul says let that person be accursed. So just because someone says "Lord, Lord" does not make them a Christian while they are teaching false teachings.

Everyone who is in Christ needs to be studying God's word in order to be able to know whether anyone is telling the truth regarding God's word or not. Today, it is not just enough to know what is right or wrong, but to know what is right and what is almost right. Satan has a full out attack on Christianity and is unfortunately finding many foot soldiers to bring in false teachings into the church in order to distort and dilute it.

As the scriptures proclaim, the time is coming when the true son's of God will be revealed. In the mean time, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word and contend for the truth when I see false teachings and will continue to do so.

SpoonJuly · Mar 6, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I assure you, that I do have all the details correct. MattG who is believing in preterism, believes that all end-time events have taken place and he believes and teaches that the resurrection has already taken place and that Jesus has already returned. As you can see from the scripture above, Paul said those who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place were as follows:

* That it was/is godless chatter

* They would become more ungodly

* That this teaching would spread like gangrene (which it has)

* By this teaching that they had departed from the truth

* That this teaching was destroying the faith of some

The teaching that the resurrection has already taken place is just one of the false teachings that MattG is proclaiming. So, how is it that I do not have all the details.

Yeah, the difference is that I am adhering to scripture, where MattG is ignoring it. So no, I am not a false teacher since I am pointing out the error in what he is teaching according to scripture. There are many beliefs that are detrimental to salvation. If for example one is teaching the need for words along side of the Lord's sacrifice, this is detrimental to ones salvation. If you are teaching that the resurrection has taken place, if you believe Paul to be a false apostle, if you are preaching another gospel other than the one written, Paul says let that person be accursed. So just because someone says "Lord, Lord" does not make them a Christian while they are teaching false teachings.

Everyone who is in Christ needs to be studying God's word in order to be able to know whether anyone is telling the truth regarding God's word or not. Today, it is not just enough to know what is right or wrong, but to know what is right and what is almost right. Satan has a full out attack on Christianity and is unfortunately finding many foot soldiers to bring in false teachings into the church in order to distort and dilute it.

As the scriptures proclaim, the time is coming when the true son's of God will be revealed. In the mean time, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word and contend for the truth when I see false teachings and will continue to do so.

While I do not agree with any of MattG's , I also find many of your teaching in error.
Your statement that you do have all the details correct is laughable.

Ahwatukee · Mar 6, 2018

SpoonJuly said:

If you find them in error, that is your free will to feel that way. But everything that I claim is accompanied by scripture. I don't make claims unless I have all the details. I live in the book of Revelation and end-time events, as well as the rest of the word of God. There is not one teaching that I have presented that you can deny scripturally. If you think that you can, please make your case and I will prove you wrong with scripture. I proclaim the word of God, nothing else. So please give me an example of what you find laughable.

SpoonJuly · Mar 6, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Who exactly are the 144,000. Support with Scripture.
What exactly id the mark of the beast. Support with Scripture.

abcdef · Mar 6, 2018

Endoscopy said:

abcdef said:

I am just pointing out options that you may not have thought about. Get out of the box. You defend the 4 views, but don't believe in any one of them.

This is a relative statement. We certainly know many things about them. It's not as if we have no knowledge about them at all.

Why do you say that no one knows? It's meant to be a revealing, a revelation, it's supposed to be understood.

Ask me the hardest question you can think of in prophecy, for fun.

If the meaning of the statue is known, then you should have no problem explaining how the Roman iron legs/toes nation lasts until modern times without ending. There is no gap in the Roman iron nation/kingdom legs/toes.

Who was the iron 2000 yrs ago? 1000 yrs ago? remember no gap, 500 yrs ago? Who is the iron right now?

Not really, the Vatican is the image of the Roman Empire, the religious image. Caesar worship is one thing that they have in common. Caesar worship is, worship the creation, man is god, Caesar as the holy father, and inclusive of many other pagan religions and rituals.

Also they have been persecuting Israel for the time of the iron, the last 2000 years.

Yes, but the nations/kingdoms shown in the statue are nations that rule over Israel, not the planet. Babylon did not rule over the planet, and neither did any of the nations shown. The statue nations are at best, major powers of ancient western civilizations.

The statue shows the Roman iron nation that rules over Israel dividing into 2 legs, mixing with clay, then dividing into 10 toes mixed with clay.

So the statue shows the power of the Roman iron nation over Israel deteriorating. The statue shows that the nations NEVER come together again to form a planet wide empire. It shows just the opposite.

What I have stated is based on scripture. I hope everyone gets to heaven. Nobody living today is responsible for the things done by others over 100 years ago. But souls are responsible for endorsing and maintaining a system.

If you were a Christian 500 yrs ago, and the Roman beast found you with a Bible, you would be killed. Is stating that fact hate? Or a warning to others in what they believe in hope of their salvation?

Again, Paul said that he was living in the last days Heb 1:2, don't you believe Paul? What do you think that he meant by "last days"?

abcdef · Mar 6, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Who was the iron legs 2000 yrs ago? Dan.2

Who was the iron nation 1000 years ago?

Who was the iron nation 500 yrs ago?

Who is the iron nation today?

Ahwatukee · Mar 6, 2018

SpoonJuly said:

Hello again,

Who the 144,000 are is very easy to understand, or should be anyway, for scripture is very clear on this. According Rev.7:1-8 and 14:1-5, this group will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes, minus Dan, who come out of unbelieving Israel as those who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and who will be sealed in their foreheads with the seal of God. They are referred to as the "first fruits" and are those who will not have defiled themselves with women, which infers that they are all adult males. Here are the scriptures:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The fact that John hears the number of those sealed as being 144,000 and that that we are given a break-down of that 144,000 as being 12,000 per tribe, and the fact that the number is consistent in Rev.14:1-5, tells us that it is an exact number and not a symbolic number, as the Amillennialists and preterists would have us believe.

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He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously according to scripture, the mark is something that will go in/on the hand or forehead and that those without it will not be able to buy or sell. And those who do receive it, God's wrath will be poured out upon them without any mercy mixed in and the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever (in the lake of fire) and they will have no intermission or cessation of said torment in flame day or night, meaning that they will suffer on-going, unceasing punishment.

The system which the mark will utilize, is and has been here for some time, which is this electronic crediting and debiting system which the majority of the world uses every day to make purchases. Currently, people make their purchase and then swipe their card or use their cell phone bank app or some other device to debit their bank account in real time via the Pointe of Sale system (POS).

Now, for the last couple of years companies in Sweden have been implanting their employees with RFID chips under the skin of the hand to use for security purposes and also to make purchases. This technology is now being used by a company here in the US which is also offering to implant their employees to make purchases within the company. This is the technology that the mark of the beast will use. This device under the skin will eventually replace card swiping and cell phone banks apps and every other method of buying and selling, leaving that mark as the only valid way of performing any type of electronic crediting and debiting.

The word "Charagma" translated as "mark" is defined as follows:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Strong's Concordance

charagma: a stamp, impress

Original Word: χάραγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charagma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ag-mah)
Short Definition: sculpture, a stamp, sign
Definition: sculpture; engraving, a stamp, sign.

HELPS Word-studies

5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

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Those who receive it will do so in order to keep on living their lives i.e. so that they can continue to buy and sell, for without that mark no one will be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts. The mark will be that proverbial line being drawn in the sand. The only way people will be able to buy food, gas, pay their bills, mortgages, etc., will be if they have that mark.

The word "Charagma" was as close as John could come in describing this mark, because he didn't have anything in his time period to describe what he was seeing in the furture, ergo, the word "charagma." The fact that we are seeing people being implanted under the skin of the hand is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word.

Very soon we will begin to see people making purchases having their hands being scanned, instead of swiping cards or cell phone bank apps.

abcdef · Mar 6, 2018

MarcR said:

abcdef said:

Brother MarcR,

Paul said in Heb 1:2 that he was in the last days. I believe the last days began on Pentecost when the kingdom/church was established on earth. The mill kingdom.

The planet will end in the fire from heaven Rev 20:9, at the second resurrection when Jesus comes for the kingdom. This is showing the same resur as the 7th trumpet.

I believe that when Jesus comes for the kingdom at the rapt/resur of the 7th trumpet, the 2nd resurrection, after that then it is the end where death is destroyed 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24. Rev 20:14-15.

1 Cor plainly states that after the coming for the kingdom resurrection #2, that it is the end where death is destroyed.

But a requirement for these last events to take place is that Jerusalem has to be restored to control of Israel.

See how the different passages about Jerusalem are shown at the 2W's, 7th bowl/plague, and the fire of Rev 20.

--

The restoration of military control of Jerusalem to Israel is what the prophecies are centering on as in Lk 21:20-24, 24. When control of Jerusalem was restored, 1967, that ended the requirement to end the times of the gentiles (ToG's) in Lk 21:24. called the trampling.

This should not be confused with the "fullness of the gentiles", which as far as I can tell hasn't happened yet.

-----

Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

Yes I agree, But in this case it looks to me like this is describing Israel as the kingdom before the fall of 70 ad. As the gospel was preached after Pentecost, the kingdom/church continued to grow but was still mostly Israelites. This would be showing the kingdom/church before being shaken in 70 ad along with unbelieving Israel.

A parallel passage might be Rev 6:12-17. See how the stars (Israelites remember?) like a fig tree is shaken fall, like untimely figs (understood to mean that they are not fully ripe for the harvest, the gospel kingdom had not reached it's fullest extent intended for Israel). You could say that this passage show the unbelieving branches being broken off.

At the time that these words were spoken there were only for apostles present Mk 13:3. The "this generation" prophecy was fulfilled in John, who saw the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad.

The Matt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21, passages are all about the events leading up to, and include the destruction of 70 ad. The coming of Jesus at the dest was not a resurrection coming.

But one thing that has been misunderstood is the times of the gentiles that comes after 70 ad. and the gathering at the end of that time. This is seen in Lk21:24 and Matt 24:29-31. This Matt passage has been mistaken for the 2nd resurrection, but is actually showing the gathering of Israel at the end of the ToG's to restore Israel to Jerusalem.

MattG · Mar 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

You're miss using scripture Ahwatukee. Did you know those who say Lord, Lord, where people who were trying to be justified by the things they they were doing for the Lord, and not just believing on the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Gotta take into context. Not just misuse for your own purpose. I love you, but maybe you just didn't understand that part. Many people kinda don't notice that.

justpassinthrough · Mar 7, 2018

There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16

2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17

3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The 3 major things that occur at His coming:

The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
The Rapture.
The destruction of the antichrist.

Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.

JLB

PlainWord · Mar 7, 2018

Endoscopy said:

What prophesy has Jesus reigning here on earth? This idea of Christ reigning from some earthly temple has to stop. It violates all kinds of scripture such as here:

See “We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

“However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands,as the prophet says.

“God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

If He didn't dwell in man-made temples then, why would He start in our future? Do you expect Him to honor animal sacrifices too, voided the sacrifice of Christ? If so, that's some messed theology. As for the first passage, since Christ built a new one without hands, it clearly is a spiritual temple which should give one a pretty good hint as to where Christ is reigning.

The "tribulation" was the wrath of God and the Lamb poured out on 70 AD Israel and Jerusalem including those wicked Jews who were scattered but returned for the feast of Passover in 67 AD and were trapped inside when Rome surrounded Israel. The Jewish Christians left the city, went over the mountains to Pella and thus none died. Instead they were delivered from the wrath to come. Hope this helps?

SpoonJuly · Mar 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Hello again,

Who the 144,000 are is very easy to understand, or should be anyway, for scripture is very clear on this. According Rev.7:1-8 and 14:1-5, this group will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes, minus Dan, who come out of unbelieving Israel as those who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and who will be sealed in their foreheads with the seal of God. They are referred to as the "first fruits" and are those who will not have defiled themselves with women, which infers that they are all adult males. Here are the scriptures:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The fact that John hears the number of those sealed as being 144,000 and that that we are given a break-down of that 144,000 as being 12,000 per tribe, and the fact that the number is consistent in Rev.14:1-5, tells us that it is an exact number and not a symbolic number, as the Amillennialists and preterists would have us believe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously according to scripture, the mark is something that will go in/on the hand or forehead and that those without it will not be able to buy or sell. And those who do receive it, God's wrath will be poured out upon them without any mercy mixed in and the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever (in the lake of fire) and they will have no intermission or cessation of said torment in flame day or night, meaning that they will suffer on-going, unceasing punishment.

The system which the mark will utilize, is and has been here for some time, which is this electronic crediting and debiting system which the majority of the world uses every day to make purchases. Currently, people make their purchase and then swipe their card or use their cell phone bank app or some other device to debit their bank account in real time via the Pointe of Sale system (POS).

Now, for the last couple of years companies in Sweden have been implanting their employees with RFID chips under the skin of the hand to use for security purposes and also to make purchases. This technology is now being used by a company here in the US which is also offering to implant their employees to make purchases within the company. This is the technology that the mark of the beast will use. This device under the skin will eventually replace card swiping and cell phone banks apps and every other method of buying and selling, leaving that mark as the only valid way of performing any type of electronic crediting and debiting.

The word "Charagma" translated as "mark" is defined as follows:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Strong's Concordance

charagma: a stamp, impress

Original Word: χάραγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charagma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ag-mah)
Short Definition: sculpture, a stamp, sign
Definition: sculpture; engraving, a stamp, sign.

HELPS Word-studies

5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Those who receive it will do so in order to keep on living their lives i.e. so that they can continue to buy and sell, for without that mark no one will be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts. The mark will be that proverbial line being drawn in the sand. The only way people will be able to buy food, gas, pay their bills, mortgages, etc., will be if they have that mark.

The word "Charagma" was as close as John could come in describing this mark, because he didn't have anything in his time period to describe what he was seeing in the furture, ergo, the word "charagma." The fact that we are seeing people being implanted under the skin of the hand is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word.

Very soon we will begin to see people making purchases having their hands being scanned, instead of swiping cards or cell phone bank apps.

In other post you refer to the 144,000 as the male child. Why did you not include that this time. Where is your Scripture proof of the 144,000 being the male child?

Where is your Scripture prof that the mark is an implanted chip.

This is proof that you often give opinion as Bible facts.

SpoonJuly · Mar 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Hello again,

Who the 144,000 are is very easy to understand, or should be anyway, for scripture is very clear on this. According Rev.7:1-8 and 14:1-5, this group will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes, minus Dan, who come out of unbelieving Israel as those who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and who will be sealed in their foreheads with the seal of God. They are referred to as the "first fruits" and are those who will not have defiled themselves with women, which infers that they are all adult males. Here are the scriptures:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The fact that John hears the number of those sealed as being 144,000 and that that we are given a break-down of that 144,000 as being 12,000 per tribe, and the fact that the number is consistent in Rev.14:1-5, tells us that it is an exact number and not a symbolic number, as the Amillennialists and preterists would have us believe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously according to scripture, the mark is something that will go in/on the hand or forehead and that those without it will not be able to buy or sell. And those who do receive it, God's wrath will be poured out upon them without any mercy mixed in and the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever (in the lake of fire) and they will have no intermission or cessation of said torment in flame day or night, meaning that they will suffer on-going, unceasing punishment.

The system which the mark will utilize, is and has been here for some time, which is this electronic crediting and debiting system which the majority of the world uses every day to make purchases. Currently, people make their purchase and then swipe their card or use their cell phone bank app or some other device to debit their bank account in real time via the Pointe of Sale system (POS).

Now, for the last couple of years companies in Sweden have been implanting their employees with RFID chips under the skin of the hand to use for security purposes and also to make purchases. This technology is now being used by a company here in the US which is also offering to implant their employees to make purchases within the company. This is the technology that the mark of the beast will use. This device under the skin will eventually replace card swiping and cell phone banks apps and every other method of buying and selling, leaving that mark as the only valid way of performing any type of electronic crediting and debiting.

The word "Charagma" translated as "mark" is defined as follows:

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Strong's Concordance

charagma: a stamp, impress

Original Word: χάραγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charagma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ag-mah)
Short Definition: sculpture, a stamp, sign
Definition: sculpture; engraving, a stamp, sign.

HELPS Word-studies

5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

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Those who receive it will do so in order to keep on living their lives i.e. so that they can continue to buy and sell, for without that mark no one will be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts. The mark will be that proverbial line being drawn in the sand. The only way people will be able to buy food, gas, pay their bills, mortgages, etc., will be if they have that mark.

The word "Charagma" was as close as John could come in describing this mark, because he didn't have anything in his time period to describe what he was seeing in the furture, ergo, the word "charagma." The fact that we are seeing people being implanted under the skin of the hand is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word.

Very soon we will begin to see people making purchases having their hands being scanned, instead of swiping cards or cell phone bank apps.

Do you really believe that with the chaos that the world will be in during the Great Tribulation, there will be people paying mortgages, banking and shopping at Walmart?
The world's economy will collapse. People will simply be searching for food and shelter.

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2018

SpoonJuly said:

During the first 3 1/2 years, yes, people will be paying their mortgages. But that's not the point. People will certainly still be buying groceries, gas, paying their bills, etc. Here's something for you to consider. Just before the middle of the seven years, the beast will be released out of the Abyss and will kill the two witnesses. After they have been killed, look at what the scripture says:

"When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them."

Based on the scripture above, there will still have to be TV coverage and web cameras in order for all peoples, tribes, languages and nations to see the two witnesses lying in the streets of Jerusalem. They will also be sending gifts back and forth to each other, partying and gloating!

Well, scripture would disagree with you. Is it not written that "unless anyone had the mark he would not be able to buy or sell"? If there was no buying or selling, what good would the mark do for those who received it?

SpoonJuly · Mar 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

During the first 3 1/2 years, yes, people will be paying their mortgages. But that's not the point. People will certainly still be buying groceries, gas, paying their bills, etc. Here's something for you to consider. Just before the middle of the seven years, the beast will be released out of the Abyss and will kill the two witnesses. After they have been killed, look at what the scripture says:

"When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them."

Based on the scripture above, there will still have to be TV coverage and web cameras in order for all peoples, tribes, languages and nations to see the two witnesses lying in the streets of Jerusalem. They will also be sending gifts back and forth to each other, partying and gloating!

Well, scripture would disagree with you. Is it not written that "unless anyone had the mark he would not be able to buy or sell"? If there was no buying or selling, what good would the mark do for those who received it?

Where is Scripture that proves the 2 witnesses are killed just before the middle of the seven years?

You still did not offer Scripture proof, and did not answer my question about your opinion that the 144,000 are the male child.

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2018

SpoonJuly said:

I did not mention it because you were having problems with understanding the baser things. But since asked, the woman gives birth to a male child and is "caught up" to God and His throne. The reference to the woman giving birth to a male child, is referring to the 144,000 coming out of Israel who in opposition to unbelieving Israel, will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. Another clue in supporting this, is that in Rev.14:4, the 144,000 are said to have not defiled themselves with women, which would infer that these are 144,000 male adults, ergo, the male child.

In addition, the scripture states that the dragon/Satan is waiting to devour the child as soon as it is born, but the male child is caught up before the dragon/Satan can devour it. That said, Jesus does not fit this criterial, for He was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand. The male child is "caught up" which is the same word "Harpazo" used to describe the living church being caught up to meet Christ in the air. It is also the same word used by Paul when he was "caught up" to the third heaven. And it is the same word used when Philip was "snatched away" from the eunuch. During the middle of the seven years, the male child will be "caught up" to God's throne without harm, where Jesus was crucified. Jesus is not the male child.

Well, let's see. The scripture states that it will go in/on the hand or the forehead. Currently, the RFID chip is being implanted under the skin of the hand and one of its purposes is to make purchases. So far we are 2 for 2. I am sure that as time goes on that the technology for the RFID chip will evolve into something more applicable leading up to the revealing of hat antichrist. However, what will remain consistent, is that whatever the device ends up being, it will still go in/on the hand or the forehead and will be used to electronically credit and debit a persons bank account, in the same way that it is being done with card swiping and cell phone bank apps.

When I first came to Christ, I was drawn to the book of Revelation and the study of end-time events. When the first ATM's came out, I knew that this technology was relevant to the coming mark. Then I witnessed the next stage, which was the Universal Produce Code (UPC), then came the Point of Sale system (POS) and now for the last couple of years, starting in Sweden, people at companies have been receiving RFID chip implants which perform different functions, one of which is electronic crediting and debiting. And now, that technology is here in the US with a company also offering their employees implants to make electronic purchases within the company. I am confident that very soon, we will begin to see people paying for their products and services by having their hands scanned for electronic crediting and debiting. It's just a matter of time before this technology spreads throughout the world. People are even proud to receive them!

The way in which the false prophet "forces" all to receive that mark, will be because at that time all the other methods of buying and selling of any kind will become obsolete, leaving only that mark. It will force the inhabitants to either receive it or reject it. The problem is that, without it no one will be able to make any purchases. In fact, without that mark, no one will be able to have a job, pay their bills, buy food or anything else.

You keep saying that this is my opinion, which it is not. I'm simply connecting the dots, while everyone else discredits what the Spirit has made known to me through the study of His word. If you don't believe me, just keep on watching, because as I said, very soon we are going to be seeing people begin to pay for their products by having their hand scanned, replacing card swiping and cell phone bank apps and whatever else is being used. So, don't believe me, just keep watching and then think back on all that I have said."

I have nothing against you or anyone on this forum, but it is just frustrating to know the truth of these end-time prophesies, but no one believes them, even when it is happening right before their very eyes.

PlainWord · Mar 7, 2018

SpoonJuly said:

MarcR said:

Can I help you with this? Christ wasn't equating Israel returning from her ~1,900 year scattering by using the parable of the fig tree referenced in Mt 24:34. It is actually the exact opposite of this. He is equating the wrath He will brings upon Israel and Jerusalem when He returns. Please see Lk 13 for the "Parable of the Fig Tree." What does Christ do to the Fig Tree and why?

What were "all these things" (Mt 24:34) that He was discussing? The events of the "Beginnings of Sorrows" and the "Great Tribulation" perhaps? That would be my guess. These are bad things (for those wicked and faithless Jews). So, it is not the restoration of Israel that my good brother and friend A-F supposes, rather it is it's destruction, and the generation who witnesses it are none too happy.

SpoonJuly · Mar 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

You have offered no Scripture to prove what you have just posted. Rev. 14:4 is not proof that the 144,000 are the male child. Nor have you offered a Scripture to prove that the mark is a chip, only your opinion.

While you may be correct in that some people will use an implanted chip to pay for product, some already do, that does not make it the mark of the beast.

You offer some truth to people. If you would just post what can be proven by Scripture and not what you think (opinion) you would have more creditability.

The reason there is so much resistance to what the Bible teaches about in time events, is because of people like you who offer to many details that have no clear Scripture support. Therefore we see all the off the wall things being taught.

IT IS MY OPINION based on study of the Scripture and paying very close attention to world events, that the man of sin will soon be revealed. A time of Great tribulation is at hand. Because of much false teaching, few are prepared. When all hell breaks loose, many will be asking why Lord?

There are many events we are told about in detail, but most of what is about to happen, we only have an indication and will only know the details as we see them unfolding before us.

Please stick with posting only what you can clearly proof with Scripture, and leave opinion out. Or at least state it is your opinion.

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2018

If you go back and read my previous post, you will see that I gave you scriptural proof regarding the male child being a collective name representing the 144,000. I really hate it when I give scriptural proof and then someone comes back and says that I didn't. What is really happening is that you are ignoring what I provided. Did I not tell you that Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child and why? Surely you read that. The male child is caught up to God's throne without harm and Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected. Therefore Jesus doesn't fit the criteria.

"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.[/quote]

The dragon didn't get the male child. However,Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected. Jesus does fit the criteria of being the male child. There is your scripture, so please don't come back and tell me that I didn't prove anything with scripture.

The 144,000 are said to have not defiled themselves with women, which would make them all males, ergo, male child:

"These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as first-fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

That said, the male child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years, which is where we see them in Rev.14:1-5, those who will have been redeemed from the earth out of Israel as those acknowledging Jesus as their Messiah.

Really? Even though we have 2 out of 2 matches? What is it, some other device that will go in/on the hand or the forehead? Because of the severe consequences of receiving that mark, a good rule of thumb would be to not have anything put under the skin of ones hand or forehead for the purpose of buying or selling. I'm getting the awful feeling that people are going to use the same reasoning that you are and will be standing in line to get there implant.

As I said, this RFID device going under the skin of the hand is the technology for the mark, which I am sure will continue to evolve into something more applicable until the revealing of the antichrist. Anyway, you don't have to take my word for it, just keep watching and as I said, very soon you will be seeing people paying for things with the scan of their hands.

I always provide scripture. You will not find any post without accompanying scripture to support what I am saying. The problem is that, because people have not studied end-time events or have little study in it, they cannot receive what I am presenting them. Regarding this, there has to be some exposition on my part to connect the dots and fill in the blanks. That's what a teacher does. The biggest reason that people don't receive what I am saying, is because of the following:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

SpoonJuly · Mar 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

The dragon didn't get the male child. However,Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected. Jesus does fit the criteria of being the male child. There is your scripture, so please don't come back and tell me that I didn't prove anything with scripture.

The 144,000 are said to have not defiled themselves with women, which would make them all males, ergo, male child:

"These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as first-fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

That said, the male child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years, which is where we see them in Rev.14:1-5, those who will have been redeemed from the earth out of Israel as those acknowledging Jesus as their Messiah.

Really? Even though we have 2 out of 2 matches? What is it, some other device that will go in/on the hand or the forehead? Because of the severe consequences of receiving that mark, a good rule of thumb would be to not have anything put under the skin of ones hand or forehead for the purpose of buying or selling. I'm getting the awful feeling that people are going to use the same reasoning that you are and will be standing in line to get there implant.

As I said, this RFID device going under the skin of the hand is the technology for the mark, which I am sure will continue to evolve into something more applicable until the revealing of the antichrist. Anyway, you don't have to take my word for it, just keep watching and as I said, very soon you will be seeing people paying for things with the scan of their hands.

I always provide scripture. You will not find any post without accompanying scripture to support what I am saying. The problem is that, because people have not studied end-time events or have little study in it, they cannot receive what I am presenting them. Regarding this, there has to be some exposition on my part to connect the dots and fill in the blanks. That's what a teacher does. The biggest reason that people don't receive what I am saying, is because of the following:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
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Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

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