The Rapture

[Endoscopy]

No I didn't - they aren't the same although some bibles translate it in one big mishmash as hell, it hardly established your claim that Hades is the burning fire of Gehenna.

Gehenna was a big dump that was kept on fire and used as a reference to what hell is. Therefore became synonymous with hell.

 

[PlainWord]

The sea does not represent the Gentiles at the white throne:

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

As can be seen from the above Israel is also at the white throne judgment.

This is a complicated passage. Would love to hear your take on this and the 7 evil spirits, but that's a side bar discussion.

Anyway, I totally agree apostate Israel faces the GWT as do all unbelievers. However, I disagree that the "sea" which gives up her dead is what John was literally discussing although those who die at sea do stand before the GWT if they are unbelievers.

If John was being literal in his use of "sea," then are the dead in the "sea" (oceans, lakes, seas, water, etc), in a separate class from those in "Death and Hades?" If not, why the distinction? Notice the passage:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

John is discussing two groups, 1) those "in the sea," 2) those in "Death and Hades," right? If you were an unbeliever and drowned in the sea would you not also be in Hades? Is John saying those who drown remain where they drowned but those who died on land go to Hades? I don't think so. Elsewhere in Revelation John is using the "sea" to represent nations surrounding Israel (primarily Rome). So why not continue the figurative meaning?

 

[heartofdavid]

You need to read my post over again. My point was/is that those of the "one taken" group are being compared to those "taken" in the flood, which are the wicked. Therefore the comparison in the parable is wicked to wicked. The "one taken" is not referring to the gathering of the church by any means.

So to be clear, I never said that there was "one taken, one left" regarding the flood. But that those who are taken are being compared to those taken in the flood, wicked to wicked.

Jesus compares his coming to the noah story. A prejudgement "taken". His people,noah and family,taken miles above the earth, with ALL THE WICKED PERISHING.

Now lets look at the "one taken" (which fits NOWHERE WITH NOAH).
Every example jesus used is typical peacetime household/workplace examples.
Just that alone destroys your scenario.
You have "one taken" in a world war 3 dynamic,where there are no houses,no normalcy,destroyed earth,animals,sea,population almost decimated,people hiding in caves begging to die,etc,etc.

You can not honestly stretch that out to fit a post trib scenario.
No way friend

 

[heartofdavid]

I notice that you differentiate between those who are Christians and those in name only. There are many teaching a false gospel that lure people from the narrow path. Satan is working overtime through these people.

It appears you are futilly trying to defend the notion there is no such thing as carnal christians.

 

[PlainWord]

PL - I thought you already considered that Hades had been emptied in the 1st century?

Correct, it was. According to Rev 1:18, Christ "holds the key to Death and Hades." Therefore only Christ can free those in "Death and Hades." He freed the believers in the first century and they preceded those believers who were alive and remaining at the time. We agree on this, I think?

So, what about the unbelievers? Are they still in Death and Hades? According to Dan 12:2, "Some (rise) to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." This happened in very close proximity to the "time of trouble" AKA, the "great tribulation" of first century Israel. Michael stood up and protected the believing Jews, the "sons of (Daniel's) people." So what about the dead?

According to John 5:29, there is a "resurrection of life" and a "resurrection of condemnation", echoing the lesson in Daniel 12. Acts 24:15 teaches the same thing, "there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." Thus we have three witness passages teaching the same thing, that those dead, both good and bad will rise again AT THE SAME TIME. The John 5 passage is very clear about this and as to the timing:

"...for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Thus both resurrections occurred at the same time, around 70 AD, during the "parousia of Christ" (which many of our uninformed brothers and sisters view as the future second coming). Now the Daniel 12 passages says "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." He doesn't say "all" will awake. Isn't that interesting?

The only passage I am aware of that might be suggesting something different is in Rev 20:5. Who are the "rest of the dead (that) did not live again until the thousand years were finished?" I have some theories. Dying to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[heartofdavid]

Still waiting for a verse disputing Jesus declaration that all on the planet take the mark

 

[Locutus]

This is a complicated passage. Would love to hear your take on this and the 7 evil spirits, but that's a side bar discussion.

Anyway, I totally agree apostate Israel faces the GWT as do all unbelievers. However, I disagree that the "sea" which gives up her dead is what John was literally discussing although those who die at sea do stand before the GWT if they are unbelievers.

If John was being literal in his use of "sea," then are the dead in the "sea" (oceans, lakes, seas, water, etc), in a separate class from those in "Death and Hades?" If not, why the distinction? Notice the passage:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

John is discussing two groups, 1) those "in the sea," 2) those in "Death and Hades," right? If you were an unbeliever and drowned in the sea would you not also be in Hades? Is John saying those who drown remain where they drowned but those who died on land go to Hades? I don't think so. Elsewhere in Revelation John is using the "sea" to represent nations surrounding Israel (primarily Rome). So why not continue the figurative meaning?

G'morning PL - I agree that many instances in John's revelation that the sea means the Gentile nations - whether it does in the context of the Great White I'm not so sure.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"

It's an odd statement. "Hell" aka Hades - this was the place of the dead whether the "earth" or the "sea", so why he makes a distinction I dunno, but then all the prophets used "flowery" poetical langauge.

Maybe he was implying there was no escape even for those who died at sea as if hidden.

Why does "death" as well as "hell" give up their dead, this just seems to be redundant - I think John is using prophetic hyperbole in the way the OT prophets did. I don't think it should be read in a totally literal sense other than the dead coming to judgment.

 

[abcdef]

This is a complicated passage. Would love to hear your take on this and the 7 evil spirits, but that's a side bar discussion.

Anyway, I totally agree apostate Israel faces the GWT as do all unbelievers. However, I disagree that the "sea" which gives up her dead is what John was literally discussing although those who die at sea do stand before the GWT if they are unbelievers.

If John was being literal in his use of "sea," then are the dead in the "sea" (oceans, lakes, seas, water, etc), in a separate class from those in "Death and Hades?" If not, why the distinction? Notice the passage:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

John is discussing two groups, 1) those "in the sea," 2) those in "Death and Hades," right? If you were an unbeliever and drowned in the sea would you not also be in Hades? Is John saying those who drown remain where they drowned but those who died on land go to Hades? I don't think so. Elsewhere in Revelation John is using the "sea" to represent nations surrounding Israel (primarily Rome). So why not continue the figurative meaning?

Brother PW,

The sea, is the sea of the gentile nations.

The logic would be this, if the sea gave up it's dead, then who would be left in the sea? The living, of the sea of the gentiles.

Then after the dead and the living of the sea are separated, then there is no more sea, of the gentile nations. They were separated into the living and the dead and have met eternity.

 

[abcdef]

G'morning PL - I agree that many instances in John's revelation that the sea means the Gentile nations - whether it does in the context of the Great White I'm not so sure.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"

It's an odd statement. "Hell" aka Hades - this was the place of the dead whether the "earth" or the "sea", so why he makes a distinction I dunno, but then all the prophets used "flowery" poetical langauge.

Maybe he was implying there was no escape even for those who died at sea as if hidden.

Why does "death" as well as "hell" give up their dead, this just seems to be redundant - I think John is using prophetic hyperbole in the way the OT prophets did. I don't think it should be read in a totally literal sense other than the dead coming to judgment.

Brother Locutus,

Death gives up the dead, is the angels that are chained in everlasting darkness Jude 6.

Hell is where the rich man was, Hades.

 

[derrickpparker]

Is the following part of the Rapture?

(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.

(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

 

[Locutus]

Correct, it was. According to Rev 1:18, Christ "holds the key to Death and Hades." Therefore only Christ can free those in "Death and Hades." He freed the believers in the first century and they preceded those believers who were alive and remaining at the time. We agree on this, I think?

So, what about the unbelievers? Are they still in Death and Hades? According to Dan 12:2, "Some (rise) to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." This happened in very close proximity to the "time of trouble" AKA, the "great tribulation" of first century Israel. Michael stood up and protected the believing Jews, the "sons of (Daniel's) people." So what about the dead?

According to John 5:29, there is a "resurrection of life" and a "resurrection of condemnation", echoing the lesson in Daniel 12. Acts 24:15 teaches the same thing, "there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." Thus we have three witness passages teaching the same thing, that those dead, both good and bad will rise again AT THE SAME TIME. The John 5 passage is very clear about this and as to the timing:

"...for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Thus both resurrections occurred at the same time, around 70 AD, during the "parousia of Christ" (which many of our uninformed brothers and sisters view as the future second coming). Now the Daniel 12 passages says "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." He doesn't say "all" will awake. Isn't that interesting?

The only passage I am aware of that might be suggesting something different is in Rev 20:5. Who are the "rest of the dead (that) did not live again until the thousand years were finished?" I have some theories. Dying to hear your thoughts on this.

I'd agree to most of this, except I would place the GWT at the 70 AD parousia, at which point death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire.

"many of those" - I've just been reading about this - the outcome of which is that "many" is a Hebrewism which means all.

In John Jesus references Daniel and states ALL.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


There is only one judgment as far as I can see - Daniel's "many of those" to which Jesus referred and Paul in Acts 24:14 - the way see it this is the GWT of John's revelation.

In regards to the "rest of the dead" - the first "resurrection" was the being made alive in the Christ (quickened) on hearing the gospel (all believers partake in this) - when he speaks of a "second" resurrection then this is after the 40 year "millennium" at the 70 AD Parousia.

The GWT is an old covenant prophecy (from Daniel) which we know ended in the 1st century AD with the full "implementation" of the NT.

After this (according to my understanding) at death all appear before the judgment seat of Christ being judged according to the new covenant.

 

[heartofdavid]

Now the sea giving up her dead means something else.

Glad i don't have to resort to that type of desperation.

 

[louis]

I believe the sea from which the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns shall rise from represents fusion energy that will be dervied by hydrogen, which the earth's seas have a virtually unlimited (bottomless pit) quantity of.
Fusion is the power the devil will give to the beast that will have the whole world worshipping the dragon, and the beast; as the material good that will be produced at a virtual pittance in cost, will bring about a hedonist society, as in the days of Noah, and as in the days of Lot in Sodom.

Revelation 13:4 [FONT=&quot]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

[/FONT]Luke 17:26 [FONT=&quot]And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.[/FONT]

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[abcdef]

Now the sea giving up her dead means something else.

Glad i don't have to resort to that type of desperation.

The waters are people, Rev 17:15.

 

[PlainWord]

I'd agree to most of this, except I would place the GWT at the 70 AD parousia, at which point death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire.

"many of those" - I've just been reading about this - the outcome of which is that "many" is a Hebrewism which means all.

In John Jesus references Daniel and states ALL.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


There is only one judgment as far as I can see - Daniel's "many of those" to which Jesus referred and Paul in Acts 24:14 - the way see it this is the GWT of John's revelation.

In regards to the "rest of the dead" - the first "resurrection" was the being made alive in the Christ (quickened) on hearing the gospel (all believers partake in this) - when he speaks of a "second" resurrection then this is after the 40 year "millennium" at the 70 AD Parousia.

The GWT is an old covenant prophecy (from Daniel) which we know ended in the 1st century AD with the full "implementation" of the NT.

After this (according to my understanding) at death all appear before the judgment seat of Christ being judged according to the new covenant.

Thanks for the reply and your explanation regarding the "many" of Dan 12. I agree that the GWT occurred circa 70 AD. I further agree that since then when someone dies they receive judgment and are either admitted to heaven or they undergo the second death (i.e., separation from God and punishment according to their deeds). To me this means that the GWT has not gone away but is there continually for those who die to stand before God.

I do not agree that the millennium was the 40 year period between Christ and 70 AD. I believe we are in the millennium right now. It does not seem possible to associate 40 years with 1,000 years. Also, during the "1,000 years" there is/was to be a period without Satanic deception of the "nations." I see a lot of deception between 30-70 AD.

 

[Locutus]

Thanks for the reply and your explanation regarding the "many" of Dan 12. I agree that the GWT occurred circa 70 AD. I further agree that since then when someone dies they receive judgment and are either admitted to heaven or they undergo the second death (i.e., separation from God and punishment according to their deeds). To me this means that the GWT has not gone away but is there continually for those who die to stand before God.

I do not agree that the millennium was the 40 year period between Christ and 70 AD. I believe we are in the millennium right now. It does not seem possible to associate 40 years with 1,000 years. Also, during the "1,000 years" there is/was to be a period without Satanic deception of the "nations." I see a lot of deception between 30-70 AD.

The problem I see with still being in the millennium PL is how do you explain the first fruits living from the 1st century until now?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Locutus]

PL - something to cogitate on.

You have a "millennium" so far as being 1900+ years as against my "40 years" - so when does the millennium end?

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

And in Ephesians:

(Eph 3:21 KJV) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Eph 3:21 (Young's Literal) to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

My understanding that the Greek behind "of the age of the ages" is the nearest that Greek can be used to mean "forever"

So this problem is this - if the church is active in "all the generations of the age of the ages" then you have an endless millennium rather than a specific period - which to me is a 1st century phenomena existing until the ending of the Mosaic age.

 

[Endoscopy]

This is a complicated passage. Would love to hear your take on this and the 7 evil spirits, but that's a side bar discussion.

Anyway, I totally agree apostate Israel faces the GWT as do all unbelievers. However, I disagree that the "sea" which gives up her dead is what John was literally discussing although those who die at sea do stand before the GWT if they are unbelievers.

If John was being literal in his use of "sea," then are the dead in the "sea" (oceans, lakes, seas, water, etc), in a separate class from those in "Death and Hades?" If not, why the distinction? Notice the passage:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

John is discussing two groups, 1) those "in the sea," 2) those in "Death and Hades," right? If you were an unbeliever and drowned in the sea would you not also be in Hades? Is John saying those who drown remain where they drowned but those who died on land go to Hades? I don't think so. Elsewhere in Revelation John is using the "sea" to represent nations surrounding Israel (primarily Rome). So why not continue the figurative meaning?

​This is the problem with eschatology. What is the meaning of the symbols. Nothing difinative therefore the four Biblical versions of the end times.

 

[Endoscopy]

It appears you are futilly trying to defend the notion there is no such thing as carnal christians.

Define carnal christians I noted one was capitalized and this one wasn't. If you meant Christians that sin all are in that category.

 

[Endoscopy]

Jesus said those in the Father's hand will not be taken from it. The question therefore is who is in His hand. That means all true Christians. By God sees into our heart. Therefore he holds the true Christians safe.