The Rapture
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This is a complicated passage. Would love to hear your take on this and the 7 evil spirits, but that's a side bar discussion.
Anyway, I totally agree apostate Israel faces the GWT as do all unbelievers. However, I disagree that the "sea" which gives up her dead is what John was literally discussing although those who die at sea do stand before the GWT if they are unbelievers.
If John was being literal in his use of "sea," then are the dead in the "sea" (oceans, lakes, seas, water, etc), in a separate class from those in "Death and Hades?" If not, why the distinction? Notice the passage:
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
John is discussing two groups, 1) those "in the sea," 2) those in "Death and Hades," right? If you were an unbeliever and drowned in the sea would you not also be in Hades? Is John saying those who drown remain where they drowned but those who died on land go to Hades? I don't think so. Elsewhere in Revelation John is using the "sea" to represent nations surrounding Israel (primarily Rome). So why not continue the figurative meaning?
Anyway, I totally agree apostate Israel faces the GWT as do all unbelievers. However, I disagree that the "sea" which gives up her dead is what John was literally discussing although those who die at sea do stand before the GWT if they are unbelievers.
If John was being literal in his use of "sea," then are the dead in the "sea" (oceans, lakes, seas, water, etc), in a separate class from those in "Death and Hades?" If not, why the distinction? Notice the passage:
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
John is discussing two groups, 1) those "in the sea," 2) those in "Death and Hades," right? If you were an unbeliever and drowned in the sea would you not also be in Hades? Is John saying those who drown remain where they drowned but those who died on land go to Hades? I don't think so. Elsewhere in Revelation John is using the "sea" to represent nations surrounding Israel (primarily Rome). So why not continue the figurative meaning?
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Jesus compares his coming to the noah story. A prejudgement "taken". His people,noah and family,taken miles above the earth, with ALL THE WICKED PERISHING.
Now lets look at the "one taken" (which fits NOWHERE WITH NOAH).
Every example jesus used is typical peacetime household/workplace examples.
Just that alone destroys your scenario.
You have "one taken" in a world war 3 dynamic,where there are no houses,no normalcy,destroyed earth,animals,sea,population almost decimated,people hiding in caves begging to die,etc,etc.
You can not honestly stretch that out to fit a post trib scenario.
No way friend
Now lets look at the "one taken" (which fits NOWHERE WITH NOAH).
Every example jesus used is typical peacetime household/workplace examples.
Just that alone destroys your scenario.
You have "one taken" in a world war 3 dynamic,where there are no houses,no normalcy,destroyed earth,animals,sea,population almost decimated,people hiding in caves begging to die,etc,etc.
You can not honestly stretch that out to fit a post trib scenario.
No way friend
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Correct, it was. According to Rev 1:18, Christ "holds the key to Death and Hades." Therefore only Christ can free those in "Death and Hades." He freed the believers in the first century and they preceded those believers who were alive and remaining at the time. We agree on this, I think?
So, what about the unbelievers? Are they still in Death and Hades? According to Dan 12:2, "Some (rise) to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." This happened in very close proximity to the "time of trouble" AKA, the "great tribulation" of first century Israel. Michael stood up and protected the believing Jews, the "sons of (Daniel's) people." So what about the dead?
According to John 5:29, there is a "resurrection of life" and a "resurrection of condemnation", echoing the lesson in Daniel 12. Acts 24:15 teaches the same thing, "there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." Thus we have three witness passages teaching the same thing, that those dead, both good and bad will rise again AT THE SAME TIME. The John 5 passage is very clear about this and as to the timing:
"...for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
Thus both resurrections occurred at the same time, around 70 AD, during the "parousia of Christ" (which many of our uninformed brothers and sisters view as the future second coming). Now the Daniel 12 passages says "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." He doesn't say "all" will awake. Isn't that interesting?
The only passage I am aware of that might be suggesting something different is in Rev 20:5. Who are the "rest of the dead (that) did not live again until the thousand years were finished?" I have some theories. Dying to hear your thoughts on this.
So, what about the unbelievers? Are they still in Death and Hades? According to Dan 12:2, "Some (rise) to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." This happened in very close proximity to the "time of trouble" AKA, the "great tribulation" of first century Israel. Michael stood up and protected the believing Jews, the "sons of (Daniel's) people." So what about the dead?
According to John 5:29, there is a "resurrection of life" and a "resurrection of condemnation", echoing the lesson in Daniel 12. Acts 24:15 teaches the same thing, "there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." Thus we have three witness passages teaching the same thing, that those dead, both good and bad will rise again AT THE SAME TIME. The John 5 passage is very clear about this and as to the timing:
"...for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
Thus both resurrections occurred at the same time, around 70 AD, during the "parousia of Christ" (which many of our uninformed brothers and sisters view as the future second coming). Now the Daniel 12 passages says "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." He doesn't say "all" will awake. Isn't that interesting?
The only passage I am aware of that might be suggesting something different is in Rev 20:5. Who are the "rest of the dead (that) did not live again until the thousand years were finished?" I have some theories. Dying to hear your thoughts on this.
G'morning PL - I agree that many instances in John's revelation that the sea means the Gentile nations - whether it does in the context of the Great White I'm not so sure.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"
It's an odd statement. "Hell" aka Hades - this was the place of the dead whether the "earth" or the "sea", so why he makes a distinction I dunno, but then all the prophets used "flowery" poetical langauge.
Maybe he was implying there was no escape even for those who died at sea as if hidden.
Why does "death" as well as "hell" give up their dead, this just seems to be redundant - I think John is using prophetic hyperbole in the way the OT prophets did. I don't think it should be read in a totally literal sense other than the dead coming to judgment.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"
It's an odd statement. "Hell" aka Hades - this was the place of the dead whether the "earth" or the "sea", so why he makes a distinction I dunno, but then all the prophets used "flowery" poetical langauge.
Maybe he was implying there was no escape even for those who died at sea as if hidden.
Why does "death" as well as "hell" give up their dead, this just seems to be redundant - I think John is using prophetic hyperbole in the way the OT prophets did. I don't think it should be read in a totally literal sense other than the dead coming to judgment.
Brother PW,
The sea, is the sea of the gentile nations.
The logic would be this, if the sea gave up it's dead, then who would be left in the sea? The living, of the sea of the gentiles.
Then after the dead and the living of the sea are separated, then there is no more sea, of the gentile nations. They were separated into the living and the dead and have met eternity.
The sea, is the sea of the gentile nations.
The logic would be this, if the sea gave up it's dead, then who would be left in the sea? The living, of the sea of the gentiles.
Then after the dead and the living of the sea are separated, then there is no more sea, of the gentile nations. They were separated into the living and the dead and have met eternity.
Is the following part of the Rapture?
(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.
(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.
(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
I'd agree to most of this, except I would place the GWT at the 70 AD parousia, at which point death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire.
"many of those" - I've just been reading about this - the outcome of which is that "many" is a Hebrewism which means all.
In John Jesus references Daniel and states ALL.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
There is only one judgment as far as I can see - Daniel's "many of those" to which Jesus referred and Paul in Acts 24:14 - the way see it this is the GWT of John's revelation.
In regards to the "rest of the dead" - the first "resurrection" was the being made alive in the Christ (quickened) on hearing the gospel (all believers partake in this) - when he speaks of a "second" resurrection then this is after the 40 year "millennium" at the 70 AD Parousia.
The GWT is an old covenant prophecy (from Daniel) which we know ended in the 1st century AD with the full "implementation" of the NT.
After this (according to my understanding) at death all appear before the judgment seat of Christ being judged according to the new covenant.
"many of those" - I've just been reading about this - the outcome of which is that "many" is a Hebrewism which means all.
In John Jesus references Daniel and states ALL.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
There is only one judgment as far as I can see - Daniel's "many of those" to which Jesus referred and Paul in Acts 24:14 - the way see it this is the GWT of John's revelation.
In regards to the "rest of the dead" - the first "resurrection" was the being made alive in the Christ (quickened) on hearing the gospel (all believers partake in this) - when he speaks of a "second" resurrection then this is after the 40 year "millennium" at the 70 AD Parousia.
The GWT is an old covenant prophecy (from Daniel) which we know ended in the 1st century AD with the full "implementation" of the NT.
After this (according to my understanding) at death all appear before the judgment seat of Christ being judged according to the new covenant.
I believe the sea from which the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns shall rise from represents fusion energy that will be dervied by hydrogen, which the earth's seas have a virtually unlimited (bottomless pit) quantity of.
Fusion is the power the devil will give to the beast that will have the whole world worshipping the dragon, and the beast; as the material good that will be produced at a virtual pittance in cost, will bring about a hedonist society, as in the days of Noah, and as in the days of Lot in Sodom.
Revelation 13:4 [FONT="]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
[/FONT]Luke 17:26 [FONT="]And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.[/FONT][FONT="]27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.[/FONT]
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Fusion is the power the devil will give to the beast that will have the whole world worshipping the dragon, and the beast; as the material good that will be produced at a virtual pittance in cost, will bring about a hedonist society, as in the days of Noah, and as in the days of Lot in Sodom.
Revelation 13:4 [FONT="]And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
[/FONT]Luke 17:26 [FONT="]And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.[/FONT][FONT="]27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.[/FONT]
(
Thanks for the reply and your explanation regarding the "many" of Dan 12. I agree that the GWT occurred circa 70 AD. I further agree that since then when someone dies they receive judgment and are either admitted to heaven or they undergo the second death (i.e., separation from God and punishment according to their deeds). To me this means that the GWT has not gone away but is there continually for those who die to stand before God.
I do not agree that the millennium was the 40 year period between Christ and 70 AD. I believe we are in the millennium right now. It does not seem possible to associate 40 years with 1,000 years. Also, during the "1,000 years" there is/was to be a period without Satanic deception of the "nations." I see a lot of deception between 30-70 AD.
I do not agree that the millennium was the 40 year period between Christ and 70 AD. I believe we are in the millennium right now. It does not seem possible to associate 40 years with 1,000 years. Also, during the "1,000 years" there is/was to be a period without Satanic deception of the "nations." I see a lot of deception between 30-70 AD.
The problem I see with still being in the millennium PL is how do you explain the first fruits living from the 1st century until now?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
PL - something to cogitate on.
You have a "millennium" so far as being 1900+ years as against my "40 years" - so when does the millennium end?
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
And in Ephesians:
(Eph 3:21 KJV) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Eph 3:21 (Young's Literal) to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
My understanding that the Greek behind "of the age of the ages" is the nearest that Greek can be used to mean "forever"
So this problem is this - if the church is active in "all the generations of the age of the ages" then you have an endless millennium rather than a specific period - which to me is a 1st century phenomena existing until the ending of the Mosaic age.
You have a "millennium" so far as being 1900+ years as against my "40 years" - so when does the millennium end?
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
And in Ephesians:
(Eph 3:21 KJV) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Eph 3:21 (Young's Literal) to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
My understanding that the Greek behind "of the age of the ages" is the nearest that Greek can be used to mean "forever"
So this problem is this - if the church is active in "all the generations of the age of the ages" then you have an endless millennium rather than a specific period - which to me is a 1st century phenomena existing until the ending of the Mosaic age.