The Rapture

[PlainWord]

Excuse me plainWord, New Heaven, New earth, remember? We are not talking about this present heaven and earth. Also, it may be that the new Jerusalem will not reside on the new earth itself, but orbits it. Your using science to attempt to explain away was is eternal and of God.

The fact is that the new Jerusalem is revealed in detail as a future, literal city. So stop using man's reasoning to reject what is written about it and accept it.

Again, I believe it is literal. However, I believe it is spiritual and not a physical city mere mortals can see. Since mortals cannot see spiritual beings who are in the spirit, then logic would suggest they cannot see the city where they dwell either.

Context also suggests this new Jerusalem is the place with many mansions (rooms) which Christ went to prepare per John 14. If so, then it is open to all believers now. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." There is no waiting in Sheol/Hades anymore.

How would kings of the earth be able to enter the gates of an orbiting city? Is it going to be like "The Jettsons" where everyone owns a little spaceship? Again, there are still nations. Nations don't go to heaven, people do. Notice also that the city is called the Bride. Well is it the city or the church that is the Bride?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If the New Jerusalem hovers above the new earth and is a light to the inhabitants of the new earth. THEN: Who are the inhabitants of it? Since all the saved will be in New Jerusalem, who is left to populate the new earth?

Well God does not leave us in any doubt about who will inhabit the New Earth. While the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of all the saints until the Millennium, the New Earth will be inhabited by the following:

1. Redeemed and restored Israel (Ezek 36:24-28 and many other Scriptures)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

2. The saved nations on earth (Rev 21:23-26)

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

[PlainWord]

The word does not only mean symbolism! I have already given two examples of the use of the word in scripture.

What amazes me is that they are taking all of the detail given regarding the city

* 1,500 miles wide, deep and high

* The walls are 200 feet thick

* The city is made of pure transparent gold

* Has twelve foundations each of a different precious gem

* There are twelve gates each made from a singe pearl, three on the east, north, south and west

* There are twelve angels, one at each gate

* The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are written on the gates

* The names of the twelve apostles are written on the twelve foundations of the city

* There is a river of the water of life flowing down the middle of the city

* The tree of life is on both sides of the river bearing crops every month

So, you're going to take the word "signified" which also means to "indicate" or to "make known" and your going to ignore all of those details given in scripture? Talk about straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

You need to learn to be able to discern between what is literal and what is symbolic, because as you are currently, you do not have that ability. I might also add that, this a false teaching that has been going around for some time. So all that has happened, is that you adopted that teaching and are now contending for it.

In first century terms, with walled cities the norm and the more elaborate and wealthy the construction, the greater the status and power the city-state commands, this description would make the new Jerusalem about 1 billion times more grand, more powerful and more secure than any city ever known to man.

John sure paints a powerful and attractive symbolic picture of God's Kingdom which is more than an adequate replacement for the Jerusalem that was about to be destroyed which at the time was "heaven on earth" meaning where one would go to be "near" God as it was believed God dwelt in the Temple.

 

[Bogadile]

Well God does not leave us in any doubt about who will inhabit the New Earth. While the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of all the saints until the Millennium, the New Earth will be inhabited by the following:

1. Redeemed and restored Israel (Ezek 36:24-28 and many other Scriptures)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

2. The saved nations on earth (Rev 21:23-26)

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Im sorry. There is one destination for the saved, and one for the unsaved.
Saved Israelites go to the same place the saved gentiles do.

Are you suggesting OT saints are not resurrected and then in New Jerusalem or what?

Another problem is, if the New Jerusalem is floating and not actually coming down, how can the kings of the earth bring their glory to it while they are on earth and New Jerusalem is floating above?

 

[Allenbee]

Excuse me everybody, but for sure we are at least 1000 + years away from the "new Jerusalem", which anyway I believe is the "tent of God with MANKIND". Who cares... as what will be will be as GOD wants it, and NOT important now.

So... to me arguing this is a stupid waste of time !

NOW...WHY not concentrate on where we are TODAY... huh ? Such great Bible students here ! Be useful...please !

EXCLUDING full preterit junk , as conditions in the world today are getting worse and worse. HELL on earth.
For America; REAL nuclear threat, and elsewhere poverty, starvation and death, millions of people fleeing, killings, crime, corruption, and wars worldwide, coupled with increasing so called "natural disasters".
So this is Satan ruling and definitely NOT Jesus RULING over the nations with an iron rod, NOR has HE ever... YET !
So...Preterits pray to the ruler of the world today. Sad indeed.

Now for end time prophesy to be fulfilled, AND for our Lord's return... Israel had to exist again and miraculously does...so here we are today. The Jew's in Israel today are descendants of those Jews who killed our Messiah, and suffered destruction at AD 70, and so Israel is central to the start of world war, and will be hit as prophesied. BUT... there is a remnant that escape again as at AD 66, and these have miraculously popped up and growing. MESSIANIC JEWS...who again will flee Judea.

NOW...WHY not concentrate on where we are TODAY... huh ?
We are directly before the great tribulation and a pretrib raptue is a nice dream, but actually a death trap.

Personally I don't care if there is a pretrib, or mid trib, or post trib, as I agree with the greater EXODUS flock.
I agree with scripture and that the meek and righteous will inherit the earth.
So that's where we flee to. God's wilderness, the place prepared by God from creation.
"And the cities of the nations fell"...Satan's Babylon.

Joel 2; "before us a garden of Eden...behind us a desolate waste".

Please tell me;
Is there any way, God will disapprove of a people (congregations worldwide), who hate satan's evil concrete jungle world, and leave (flee), to live God's WAY to tend the earth. To care for the animals and all creation. To keep all HIS laws and statutes... until our Lord and King returns.

A prepared people keeping on the watch, and self sufficient celebrating the in-gathering festival of booths.
Free from the mark of the wild beast, as the woman flies to the wilderness AWAY from the dragon, and the earth protects us from the dragon and the final 3 1\2 years. Rev 12 ALL.

Shalom.

No i'm not Jewish, but JESUS (YESHUA) IS. HE is the lion from the tribe of JUDAH.
WE Christians are HIS followers, so we are now part of the new nation of JUDEA... the branched grafted in to the root. Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentile, just as it was... set up by JESUS.

 

[Locutus]

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yer don't need spiritual discernment to underhand "literal" statements in John's revelation - good luck with that.

 

[garee]

Considering that the rider of the first horse is Jesus going forth to conquer sin and death on the cross, I would say that SHORTLY refers to regular days and not 1000 year days.

I would offer there is no such thing as "thousand years days". The word thoususand is used throughout scripture to in various parables to represent an unknow of whatever is in veiw. Can't put God into a time restrained box . Its why He has given us time keepers the Sun and the Moon, which will not be part of the new creation .

The shortly after in that verse represents the same shortly after in Chapter 1. In the twinkling of the eye Christ will come like a theif . The whole revelation is from the stanpoint of the last day . Here today gone tomorrow. Christ said its an evil generation (the generation of natural man) that does seek after a sign No sign will be given that we can seek after .

 

[Locutus]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello AllenBee,

A prepared people keeping on the watch, and self sufficient celebrating the in-gathering festival of booths.
Free from the mark of the wild beast, as the woman flies to the wilderness AWAY from the dragon, and the earth protects us from the dragon and the final 3 1\2 years. Rev 12 ALL.

Just FYI, we have been conversing on where we are today. This issue of the new Jerusalem being symbolic is just another departure from the truth that has to be addressed.

No regarding what you wrote, "the woman" of Rev.12 is not the church, but is representing Israel according to Gen.37:9-10. Rev.12 is synonymous with Matt.24:15 when the abomination is set up and the woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness to that place prepared for her by God where will be cared for during the 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 of the seven year period. It is obvious that this is in reference to Israel as we have the mention of the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple, we Jesus telling the reader to pray that their flight not take place on the Sabbath. In addition, Jesus is referring to that last 3 1/2 years, which is in fulfillment of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, as found in Dan.9:24.

Also, if you will notice, the church is never mentioned again beyond the end of chapter three of Revelation and that because she is no longer on the earth during the time of God's wrath. The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the changing and catching up of the living in Chirst, will have taken place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the revealing of the antichrist, followed by God's wrath.

 

[KJV1611]

Are your ears forever closed to the truth of God's word?! You take one word and throw out the context and ignore all of the detail that is given and make it symbolic.

It is impossible to teach you! I wonder what it would take for God to get you to understand when he is speaking literally? If He gives something in such detail, what else would he have to do to get you to understand that it is literal?

All I can say is the Holy Spirit lead me away from the belief system that you hold lead me to the truth.

 

[KJV1611]

It would be interesting to go over the book of Revelation with you just to see what you deem as symbolic and what is literal, if to you there is any.

Well let's do it, I might learn something from you.

 

[KJV1611]

I would offer there is no such thing as "thousand years days". The word thoususand is used throughout scripture to in various parables to represent an unknow of whatever is in veiw. Can't put God into a time restrained box . Its why He has given us time keepers the Sun and the Moon, which will not be part of the new creation .

The shortly after in that verse represents the same shortly after in Chapter 1. In the twinkling of the eye Christ will come like a theif . The whole revelation is from the stanpoint of the last day . Here today gone tomorrow. Christ said its an evil generation (the generation of natural man) that does seek after a sign No sign will be given that we can seek after .

Hosea 6:1-2 KJV
Come, and let us return unto the Lord : for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

[2] After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

I'm not arguing that you're wrong, but what does it mean "after 2 days he will revive us and in the 3rd day he will raise us up and we shall live in his sight"?

2 possiblities that I can think of.

1) After 2000 years is the resurrection and in the 3000th year the resurrected will live in his sight or

2) After two days in the tomb Christ along with the old testament saints resurrected on the 3rd day and they went to heaven with him when he ascended.

 

[VCO]

Considering that the rider of the first horse is Jesus going forth to conquer sin and death on the cross, I would say that SHORTLY refers to regular days and not 1000 year days.

If you are talking about the Four Horsemen of the APOCALYPSE, the Rider of the first horse is not JESUS. Jesus does not mount His white horse of a Conqueror until Chapter 19. The Conqueror in Chapter 6 is Satan enters the Revived Roman Empire's Dictator, who will be allowed to go out and CONQUER the majority of the World, after the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. What is amazing, is he only has a bow and no arrows, symbolizing that he Conquers peacefully, but shortly after that He starts WWIII, again all countries that will not surrender control to him. That is what the RED Horse is all about.

The Rider of the White Horse in Rev. Chapter 6, is given a "stephanos" crown. That is NOT a King's Crown, but rather the Laurel Wreath Crown give to the winning athlete. It may be an indication that he won an election to take over the Revived Roman Empire, the European Union.

THAT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME CROWNED RIDER AS:
When Jesus Mount the White Horse in Rev. 19, HE HAS SEVERAL CROWNS but the are NOT Stephanos Crowns they are Diadem Crowns, the crowns of a KING.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well let's do it, I might learn something from you.

greetings again!

I am currently doing a series on Revelation, sections at time as blogs. You might want to read through those. I am almost through chapter one. Just click on the "Christian Blog" tab at the top of the scree and follow along.

The blogs are named "Revelation chapter and verse" e.g. "Revelation 1:1-7"

I hope you will follow along with an open mind.

I am doing this as a teaching from what I have studied of Revelation and end-time events. questions and discussions are encouraged, but this not for the purpose of argument. Just to let you know up front.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Considering that the rider of the first horse is Jesus going forth to conquer sin and death on the cross, I would say that SHORTLY refers to regular days and not 1000 year days.

Hello KJV1611,

The first seal rider on the white horse is not Jesus. Please consider the following comparison between the rider on the white horse of the first seal, with the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21:

Rider on the White Horse of Rev.6:1-2:

· Holds a bow
· Was given a crown
· Rides out as a conqueror bent on conquest

Rider on the White Horse of Rev.19:11-21:

· Rider is called Faithful and True
· With justice He judges and makes war
· His eyes are like blazing fire
· On his head are many crowns
· Has a name written on him that no one knows but He himself
· Is dressed in a robe dipped in blood
· His name is the Word of God
· Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations
· He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty
· On his robe and on his thigh the name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

I would hope that you would agree that the two riders are completely different, with the exception that they are both riding white horses.

Remember, the seals, like the trumpets and bowls, are plagues of wrath. Jesus is the One opening the seals.

The first seal rider is symbolic representing the antichrist. The reference to him "going out to conquer and bent on conquest, is in reference to his making war against the great tribulation saints for 42 months and having authority over every tribe, people, nation and language, as revealed in Rev.13:5-8.

The first seal rider cannot be Jesus because Jesus doesn't return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

The first seal rider is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse found in Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord returning to the earth to end the age.

 

[Bogadile]

How would kings of the earth be able to enter the gates of an orbiting city? Is it going to be like "The Jettsons" where everyone owns a little spaceship? Again, there are still nations. Nations don't go to heaven, people do. Notice also that the city is called the Bride. Well is it the city or the church that is the Bride?

This is my question as well, how would the kings of the earth be able to bring their tribute into an orbiting city? Now lets all agree that it comes down from heaven all the way.

 

[KJV1611]

If you are talking about the Four Horsemen of the APOCALYPSE, the Rider of the first horse is not JESUS. Jesus does not mount His white horse of a Conqueror until Chapter 19. The Conqueror in Chapter 6 is Satan enters the Revived Roman Empire's Dictator, who will be allowed to go out and CONQUER the majority of the World, after the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. What is amazing, is he only has a bow and no arrows, symbolizing that he Conquers peacefully, but shortly after that He starts WWIII, again all countries that will not surrender control to him. That is what the RED Horse is all about.

The Rider of the White Horse in Rev. Chapter 6, is given a "stephanos" crown. That is NOT a King's Crown, but rather the Laurel Wreath Crown give to the winning athlete. It may be an indication that he won an election to take over the Revived Roman Empire, the European Union.

THAT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME CROWNED RIDER AS:
When Jesus Mount the White Horse in Rev. 19, HE HAS SEVERAL CROWNS but the are NOT Stephanos Crowns they are Diadem Crowns, the crowns of a KING.

I agree, it was a laurel crown like a crown of THORNS. How many hints do you need lol.... God does everything except come out and directly say the rider is Jesus and you still REJECT Christ and CHOOSE antichrist in that verse.... I'm beginning to be concerned over your beliefs. I hope you will go to the Lord in prayer over this and ask him to remove the blinders and allow you to see the truth.

 

[KJV1611]

Hello KJV1611,

The first seal rider on the white horse is not Jesus. Please consider the following comparison between the rider on the white horse of the first seal, with the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21:

Rider on the White Horse of Rev.6:1-2:

· Holds a bow
· Was given a crown
· Rides out as a conqueror bent on conquest

Rider on the White Horse of Rev.19:11-21:

· Rider is called Faithful and True
· With justice He judges and makes war
· His eyes are like blazing fire
· On his head are many crowns
· Has a name written on him that no one knows but He himself
· Is dressed in a robe dipped in blood
· His name is the Word of God
· Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations
· He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty
· On his robe and on his thigh the name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

I would hope that you would agree that the two riders are completely different, with the exception that they are both riding white horses.

Remember, the seals, like the trumpets and bowls, are plagues of wrath. Jesus is the One opening the seals.

The first seal rider is symbolic representing the antichrist. The reference to him "going out to conquer and bent on conquest, is in reference to his making war against the great tribulation saints for 42 months and having authority over every tribe, people, nation and language, as revealed in Rev.13:5-8.

The first seal rider cannot be Jesus because Jesus doesn't return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

The first seal rider is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse found in Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord returning to the earth to end the age.

AHW this is old hat to me, I've been taught that from the beginning of my Christian walk and WHEN I started reading the bible for myself I realized it was bogus and couldn't be farther from the truth.

I'm going to show you from the bible - Jesus riding on a white horse, wearing a crown, with a bow, going forth conquering and to conquer.

Jesus on the white horse:

John 12:13-15 KJV
Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. [14] And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, [15] Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Jesus wearing a crown:

Matthew 27:29 KJV
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!


The battle bow:

Zechariah 9:10 KJV
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Conquering and to conquer:

Hebrews 10:12-14 KJV
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. [14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Christ did all of this PERFECTLY FULFILLING Reveleation 6:2. Can you show me the same types of scripture that says "The Antichrist" did do or will do all of those things? Maybe just one verse that shows "The Antichrist" riding any kind of horse or wearing any kind of crown?

I'm looking for bible proof, not your opinion please.

 

[J7]

They are now saved nations and Kings

This is my question as well, how would the kings of the earth be able to bring their tribute into an orbiting city? Now lets all agree that it comes down from heaven all the way.

 

[Bogadile]

They are now saved nations and Kings

I think it says that they are in the new earth.
Or do you mean that they got saved already while here on earth in this age. And then in the age to come they are said to "bring their tribute in" meaning they enter it at the resurrection?