THE RAPTURE

[Ahwatukee]

Where do you place the 144,000 since you are claiming we are already in the 1000 year reign and Satan is already bound and the two witnesses are really a mass of believing saints and not actually two "heavenly" witnesses who have never suffered physical death


And if this is true than the last witness, angels having the everlasting Gospel, where are they placed since you are claiming that this is the 1000 year reign?

when do they these angels get to preach?

Hello Miknik5,

I'm guessing that from his claim that we are currently living during the 1000 years, that we another amillennialist on the forum. The fact is that, none of the characteristics of the millennial period currently exist. The only way one can make us currently living in the 1000 years is to spiritualize it. I haven't seen any lions eating straw like the Ox recently, have you?

 

[miknik5]

Sadly so many refuse to understand or are incapable of understanding. I am not aware of any translation that has the Abomination of Desolation being set up in Dan 9. It is in Dan 11 and 12. Get out of Dan 9 and into Dan 11 if you want to actually learn the truth.

Mat 24: [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation - SINGULAR
Dan 11: ...and place there the abomination of desolation. - SINGULAR
Dan 12: ...and the abomination of desolation is set up... - SINGULAR

Dan 9: overspreading of abominations - PLURAL (many sins) KJV
Dan 9: wing of abominations - PLURAL (outer edge of bad acts) NKJV

Christ did this:

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

He did it here:

Matthew 27:51

Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,

Don't worry, you can still have your "antichrist" he is called the King of the North and can be found in Dan 11:31-45 and as the Man of Sin in 2 Thes 2.

Oh, BTW, there will be no third man-made Jewish Temple built before Christ returns. Hate to break the news to those who have been waiting .

ill get out of Daniel 9 when we first understand who is being spoken of as being cut off but not for HIMSELF and the reason why HE is cut off but not for HIMSELF


id also like your understanding of 2thesselonians 2 and why it is only Michael who helps this "man in linen" for the "21dsys" that HE is detained?

 

[miknik5]

Hello Miknik5,

I'm guessing that from his claim that we are currently living during the 1000 years, that we another amillennialist on the forum. The fact is that, none of the characteristics of the millennial period currently exist. The only way one can make us currently living in the 1000 years is to spiritualize it. I haven't seen any lions eating straw like the Ox recently, have you?

I hate to say it but i haven't seen any man living past 100 who is seen as a child

 

[miknik5]

By the way, there will be a third earthly temple rebuilt and with it, in ignorance, the people who do not understand, will be reinstating animal sacrifices for sin and guilt

That sir is the abomination!

 

[PlainWord]

I believe it is to rebuild the earthly temple

The scripture is clear about this if you are able to correctly understand Dan 9. There will no new man-made Jewish Temple before the Lord returns and His wrath is poured out.

shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

The "Temple" is to remain desolate until the wrath of God (as a consuming fire) is poured out on the desolate.

Who are the desolate? Glad you asked.

Gal 4: For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

The desolate are the children of Ishmael. Guess where the 12 princes of Ishmael ruled? Egypt to Syria over through Iraq and Iran. Where does the attack against Israel come from (the North). Wow.

 

[miknik5]

Right where its taught. The souls were seen in heaven "alive and reigning" with Christ. Those souls got to heaven by virtue of being part of the "first resurrection" when they accepted Christ and became "born again." Becoming "born again" is the first resurrection. They put to "death" their old self and became alive as "new men" and "new creations."

This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power.

The only way to avoid the second death (which is the spiritual death) is to become "born again." Therefore the first resurrection must = becoming "born again."

Christ was given His crown and kingdom, an EVERLASTING kingdom, when He returned to Heaven.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

The above shows where Christ was taken after the "cloud" escorted Him back to heaven in Acts 1. Although Christ is in heaven, He is reigning over all of us. That's why we are called, "Christians" since we keep the Gospel and faith.

As far as we know, souls don't reign on earth, right? Muslims have been beheading Christians since the 600s. Thousands were beheaded in the 700s. Then during the Crusades (1000s to 1200s) many more Christians were beheaded. During the Ottoman Empire from 1299 to 1922 an estimated 50 million Christians were killed including 1-3 million Armenian Christians slaughtered from 1915 to 1922. So, we can say that those beheaded souls (some of them anyway) have been "living and reigning" with Christ over 1,000 years.

BTW, when we die and go to heaven, what are we given?

Rev 2:10: ...Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

They didn't have time during this time of evil to "put to death their old self"

all they did was hold hold to the TESTIMONY OF JESUS and they did not "go out"

as to these "crowns" what will you do with them?

 

[PlainWord]

By the way, there will be a third earthly temple rebuilt and with it, in ignorance, the people who do not understand, will be reinstating animal sacrifices for sin and guilt

That sir is the abomination!

WRONG!! So wrong. Read my last post. There is no prophesy of a third man-made temple. God will never allow it. That's why he allowed the Muslims to build their dome thingy. Do you really think the world would allow the Jews to start sacrificing animals on an alter? Where have you been living lately? Seriously.

 

[tourist]

WRONG!! So wrong. Read my last post. There is no prophesy of a third man-made temple. God will never allow it. That's why he allowed the Muslims to build their dome thingy. Do you really think the world would allow the Jews to start sacrificing animals on an alter? Where have you been living lately? Seriously.

I believe that the measurements were given for the third temple to be built in the book of Ezekiel. It is obvious some structure is to be built that has not been built yet.

 

[miknik5]

WRONG!! So wrong. Read my last post. There is no prophesy of a third man-made temple. God will never allow it. That's why he allowed the Muslims to build their dome thingy. Do you really think the world would allow the Jews to start sacrificing animals on an alter? Where have you been living lately? Seriously.

Actually sir I believe that you should review your understanding as to "Christ was given a kingdom?"
and please explain this "understanding"

 

[bornofgod]

Where do you place the 144,000 since you are claiming we are already in the 1000 year reign and Satan is already bound and the two witnesses are really a mass of believing saints and not actually two "heavenly" witnesses who have never suffered physical death

The 144,000 is just a symbolic name for God's created spiritual man made both male and female. All the numbers that you see in the scriptures are only symbolic that should never be used as literal numbers. This is why many readers of the Bible who use literal interpretations get very confused. If you haven't listened to the spirit ( voice of God ) and obeyed his commandments like all the saints who testify for Him, you will not be able to understand any of the biblical prophecies. You need to know the whole picture, or story in order to understand the pieces of the story that the prophecies consist of using symbolic terms, names, etc.

For example; The book of Revelation is all about the first age as the word of the Lord is revealed through the testimonies of God's prophets and saints and how God will end it with a total destruction of everything on the earth. If you don't know the whole story about why God planned this first age and how he created us and our experiences, you can't understand anything written in Revelation.

And if this is true than the last witness, angels having the everlasting Gospel, where are they placed since you are claiming that this is the 1000 year reign?

We are definitely experiencing the second witness of the two witnesses. I was used by the voice of God to testify to every word, vision, dream and spoken analogies that were formed in my mind during the past 8 years which revealed everything that our Creator wanted me to understand. Then I was sent out to preach the gospel, which is another name for the voice of God, to whoever He put in my path in the city of Campbell, California. I witnessed to thousands of chosen believers during the 5 years that I was there who knew God and loved hearing his message to them that supporter their belief in Him and his knowledge that flowed from the gospel.

when do they these angels get to preach?

Angel is just a name used like "saint" to identify a visible body that shares a message from the voice of God. All visible flesh is temporary during this age because they're only formed illusions that appear in the individual minds of God's people. A visible body might appear to you with your sense of sight and deliver a message from God to you. After that message is delivered and the visible body goes away, you may never see that body again. We saints who deliver a message through the gospel ( voice of God ) to God's chosen believers are only visible to those believers while the message is being delivered into their minds. When the saint ( visible body ) has left, that believer may never see that saint again but the message was delivered which is the most important thing. So these are the angels that is written about in the Bible. You have to remember that God can use any visible image to get the attention of one of his chosen ones to focus on with his sense of sight while delivering a message into his mind such as the bush on fire that Moses had to focus on while a message from the voice of God was delivered into his mind.

 

[miknik5]

The 144,000 is just a symbolic name for God's created spiritual man made both male and female. All the numbers that you see in the scriptures are only symbolic that should never be used as literal numbers. This is why many readers of the Bible who use literal interpretations get very confused. If you haven't listened to the spirit ( voice of God ) and obeyed his commandments like all the saints who testify for Him, you will not be able to understand any of the biblical prophecies. You need to know the whole picture, or story in order to understand the pieces of the story that the prophecies consist of using symbolic terms, names, etc.

For example; The book of Revelation is all about the first age as the word of the Lord is revealed through the testimonies of God's prophets and saints and how God will end it with a total destruction of everything on the earth. If you don't know the whole story about why God planned this first age and how he created us and our experiences, you can't understand anything written in Revelation.




We are definitely experiencing the second witness of the two witnesses. I was used by the voice of God to testify to every word, vision, dream and spoken analogies that were formed in my mind during the past 8 years which revealed everything that our Creator wanted me to understand. Then I was sent out to preach the gospel, which is another name for the voice of God, to whoever He put in my path in the city of Campbell, California. I witnessed to thousands of chosen believers during the 5 years that I was there who knew God and loved hearing his message to them that supporter their belief in Him and his knowledge that flowed from the gospel.



Angel is just a name used like "saint" to identify a visible body that shares a message from the voice of God. All visible flesh is temporary during this age because they're only formed illusions that appear in the individual minds of God's people. A visible body might appear to you with your sense of sight and deliver a message from God to you. After that message is delivered and the visible body goes away, you may never see that body again. We saints who deliver a message through the gospel ( voice of God ) to God's chosen believers are only visible to those believers while the message is being delivered into their minds. When the saint ( visible body ) has left, that believer may never see that saint again but the message was delivered which is the most important thing. So these are the angels that is written about in the Bible. You have to remember that God can use any visible image to get the attention of one of his chosen ones to focus on with his sense of sight while delivering a message into his mind such as the bush on fire that Moses had to focus on while a message from the voice of God was delivered into his mind.

Do you know the spiritual construct of the NEW JERUSALEM?

just a reminder....it's not complete yet and it won't be until our older brothers are also brought in

 

[bornofgod]

Do you know the spiritual construct of the NEW JERUSALEM?

Yes. The symbolic name New Jerusalem means the same exact thing as the New Earth as in the New Heaven and Earth which hasn't appeared yet but it will after all flesh has perished during this first age. Many people are deceived by the prophecies in Ezekiel thinking that the New Jerusalem is the visible Jerusalem that was built up by the Zionist Jews of today. These prophecies in Ezekiel haven't happened yet and won't be experienced until this age ends.

 

[PlainWord]

ill get out of Daniel 9 when we first understand who is being spoken of as being cut off but not for HIMSELF and the reason why HE is cut off but not for HIMSELF

Did you just give me a tap in putt for birdie? Thank you. We are told clearly who was cut off.

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.

And why was He cut off?

Isa 53: [SUP]5 [/SUP]But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities

id also like your understanding of 2thesselonians 2

What part? Christ comes back after the "falling away" and the "Man of Sin" is revealed. The Man of Sin (if you look at Dan 11) is the King of the North. He opposes and exalts himself above EVERYTHING called God or that is worshiped. Basically he tells everyone that whoever they thought was God they are wrong about it and that he alone is above God. Sounds like Satan in the flesh to me. Satan is such a copy cat isn't he?

If we look at Daniel's version of 2 Thes 2, we see this:

[SUP]36 [/SUP]“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Paul tells us this in 2 Thes 2:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

There are lots of temples where the Man of Sin could be sitting in without needing to build him a new one. While it is assumed he does this in Jerusalem, we aren't really told that for certain. If he does do this in Jerusalem, the most obvious choices would be the Church of the Holy Sepulcher where the Catholics think contains Jesus' tomb. It would be just a short walk from where he set up the Abomination of Desolation at the Wailing Wall.

But, my bet would be the Church of All Nations AKA the Basilica of the Agony located in the Garden of Gethsemane on the Mount of Olives exactly opposite the Golden or Eastern Gate which of course was the gate sealed supposedly until Christ returns and opens it. From the church doorway you look across the Kidron Valley right to where the old Jewish Temple once stood.

I would not rule out St. Peter's Basilica in Rome either. The only temple we can rule out is a third man-made one because Daniel is clear, it will remain desolate until God's wrath is poured out.

 

[bornofgod]

Hello Miknik5,

I'm guessing that from his claim that we are currently living during the 1000 years, that we another amillennialist on the forum. The fact is that, none of the characteristics of the millennial period currently exist. The only way one can make us currently living in the 1000 years is to spiritualize it. I haven't seen any lions eating straw like the Ox recently, have you?

It is written; "Many will be called but only a few are chosen". If you are not chosen, you will not understand any of the biblical prophecies no matter how many times you read them.

The chosen one's hear the voice of God and obey his commandments, which is the only way to the whole story that God has been revealing during this second witness.

Deuteronomy 28
15: “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments which I command you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.
16: Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
17: Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough.
18: cursed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock.
19: Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20: “the Lord will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me.
21: The Lord will make the pestilence cleave to you until he has consumed you off the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
22: The Lord will smite you with consumption, and with fever, inflammation, and fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish.
23: And the heavens over your head shall be brass, and the earth under you shall be iron.
24: The Lord will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down upon you until you are destroyed.

 

[PlainWord]

I believe that the measurements were given for the third temple to be built in the book of Ezekiel. It is obvious some structure is to be built that has not been built yet.

If you read Eze 40 closely you won't find anyone building that Temple. How does this passage begin?

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In the visions of God He took me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain; on it toward the south was something like the structure of a city.

A vision is a dream. So God gave Ezekiel a dream of the distant future to a time most likely when the world has been restored. How do we know? Look at the way it ends?

[SUP]35 [/SUP]All the way around shall be eighteen thousand cubits; and the name of the city from that day shall be: THE LORD IS THERE.”

This sure sounds like something God builds, doesn't it? Since the "Lord is there" I'd say it's a safe bet no man built it.

 

[miknik5]

Yes. The symbolic name New Jerusalem means the same exact thing as the New Earth as in the New Heaven and Earth which hasn't appeared yet but it will after all flesh has perished during this first age. Many people are deceived by the prophecies in Ezekiel thinking that the New Jerusalem is the visible Jerusalem that was built up by the Zionist Jews of today. These prophecies in Ezekiel haven't happened yet and won't be experienced until this age ends.

24 elders. Look into who are joined in ONE HOUSE

 

[miknik5]

First age?
please ecplain

 

[miknik5]

The scripture is clear about this if you are able to correctly understand Dan 9. There will no new man-made Jewish Temple before the Lord returns and His wrath is poured out.

shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

The "Temple" is to remain desolate until the wrath of God (as a consuming fire) is poured out on the desolate.

Who are the desolate? Glad you asked.

Gal 4: For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

The desolate are the children of Ishmael. Guess where the 12 princes of Ishmael ruled? Egypt to Syria over through Iraq and Iran. Where does the attack against Israel come from (the North). Wow.

HE alone will call out from amongst the many those who belong to HIM. And those who belong to HIM who will hear HIS VOICE are not limited to one particular nation of people or even one particular location.

Therefore you have no right to claim what is tare until the day

and the only ONE who has a right to "cast out" is GOD

 

[PlainWord]

Is that why it says "This is the first resurrection" in Revelation 20:5...?

Welcome back Gary. Where have you been hiding?

I've concluded that the first resurrection is spiritual. It happens when you become born again. Obviously, it's John speaking figuratively as he does throughout Revelation.

This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power...

The only way to avoid the second death is to be born again. To be "born again," something has to die. Isn't this a type of resurrection? Something dies then is made alive?

John teaches this concept throughout his book of John.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

[SUP]15 [/SUP]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world

Paul teaches that we become new creations. To be a new creation, the old creation has to die, right?

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

To become a new man, we must put to death the old man, right?

and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him

This is the first resurrection.

You are correction. There is just one physical resurrection and it happens for both the just and unjust. It happens on the last day. If every Christian could understand this, there would be no more Pre-tribbers.

 

[miknik5]

Did you just give me a tap in putt for birdie? Thank you. We are told clearly who was cut off.

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.

And why was He cut off?

Isa 53: [SUP]5 [/SUP]But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities



What part? Christ comes back after the "falling away" and the "Man of Sin" is revealed. The Man of Sin (if you look at Dan 11) is the King of the North. He opposes and exalts himself above EVERYTHING called God or that is worshiped. Basically he tells everyone that whoever they thought was God they are wrong about it and that he alone is above God. Sounds like Satan in the flesh to me. Satan is such a copy cat isn't he?

If we look at Daniel's version of 2 Thes 2, we see this:

[SUP]36 [/SUP]“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Paul tells us this in 2 Thes 2:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

There are lots of temples where the Man of Sin could be sitting in without needing to build him a new one. While it is assumed he does this in Jerusalem, we aren't really told that for certain. If he does do this in Jerusalem, the most obvious choices would be the Church of the Holy Sepulcher where the Catholics think contains Jesus' tomb. It would be just a short walk from where he set up the Abomination of Desolation at the Wailing Wall.

But, my bet would be the Church of All Nations AKA the Basilica of the Agony located in the Garden of Gethsemane on the Mount of Olives exactly opposite the Golden or Eastern Gate which of course was the gate sealed supposedly until Christ returns and opens it. From the church doorway you look across the Kidron Valley right to where the old Jewish Temple once stood.

I would not rule out St. Peter's Basilica in Rome either. The only temple we can rule out is a third man-made one because Daniel is clear, it will remain desolate until God's wrath is poured out.

I would like your understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2. The part you overlooked.
When HE who holds all things back is taken out of the way"


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