THE RAPTURE

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I think I agree with everything you just said:D. Maybe not. Let me restate:

The moment a true believer comes to Christ, they have just experienced the First Resurrection. At that very moment they are with Christ and the Holy Spirit enters them. They are a new Creation. They are "Born Again." At this very moment, they enter the Kingdom of God and can NEVER die spiritually. They are with Christ constantly "reigning" in His kingdom on earth and in heaven once they die physically.

Yes, after Christ returns all those in the graves will come forth. This is the Second Resurrection and everyone participates in it, both the SAVED and UNSAVED. The SAVED receive their rewards and the UNSAVED are judged according to their works.
I understand. Thank you
 
Ok. Then you agree that the rest of the dead are not raised until after this 1000 year reign?
that those who have a part in the first resurrection have heard the VOICE of THE SON OF GOD and had believed

while those at the kingdom be of this 1000 year reign are those in the grave who will hear the VOICE of THE SON of GOD and will be raised to be judged according to their works

The rest of the dead referred to in Rev.20:5 are the unrighteous dead who are later described as being resurrected in Rev.20:11-15. The reason that they are being resurrected at the end of the thousand years, is because they will not have belonged to the first resurrection. These are those who will have died throughout all of history with their spirits/souls going into Sheol/Hades until the great white throne judgment.
 
I understand. Thank you

The moment a true believer comes to Christ, they have just experienced the First Resurrection.


Hello miknik5, the above is false, as it is not a true resurrection in the sense of the word. PW is talking about believers being raised with Christ and seated in heavenly places. Well, as you can see for yourself, we are not currently seated in heaven, are we? So our being raised with Christ and being seated in heavenly places is referring to the fact that the promise is sure and guaranteed. I would liken that statement to having dinner reservations at a nice restaurant, where though we are not at the restaurant yet, our places are already set up there waiting for our arrival. Same with our being raised with Christ, our places are ready and secure, but we haven't arrived yet.

In regards to "anastasis" which is what the word "resurrection" is translated from, it always refers to the body standing up again. To be clear and what I have made known to PW, when a person dies and their spirit/soul departs from the body, that is not a resurrection. It is simply the spirit/soul departing and going to be in the presence of the Lord. It is not a resurrection until those spirit/souls are reunited with their resurrected bodies. Another example of the bodily resurrection is when Lazarus and Tabitha were brought back to life. Though they were made alive in their mortal bodies, it is still a resurrection according to the meaning of the word.

A person IS NOT resurrected at the moment that they come to Christ. This is a twisting of scripture. All of the resurrections spoken of are physical, bodily, resurrections. Here is the definition according to Strong's and Word Helps:

===================================

Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising​
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body). Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
 
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Hello miknik5, the above is false, as it is not a true resurrection in the sense of the word. PW is talking about believers being raised with Christ and seated in heavenly places. Well, as you can see for yourself, we are not currently seated in heaven, are we? So our being raised with Christ and being seated in heavenly places is referring to the fact that the promise is sure and guaranteed. I would liken that statement to having dinner reservations at a nice restaurant, where though we are not at the restaurant yet, our places are already set up there waiting for our arrival. Same with our being raised with Christ, our places are ready and secure, but we haven't arrived yet.

In regards to "anastasis" which is what the word "resurrection" is translated from, it always refers to the body standing up again. To be clear and what I have made known to PW, when a person dies and their spirit/soul departs from the body, that is not a resurrection. It is simply the spirit/soul departing and going to be in the presence of the Lord. It is not a resurrection until those spirit/souls are reunited with their resurrected bodies. Another example of the bodily resurrection is when Lazarus and Tabitha were brought back to life. Though they were made alive in their mortal bodies, it is still a resurrection according to the meaning of the word.

A person IS NOT resurrected at the moment that they come to Christ. This is a twisting of scripture. All of the resurrections spoken of are physical, bodily, resurrections. Here is the definition according to Strong's and Word Helps:

===================================

Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising lot up, rising​
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body). Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
Ok so then those who have a part in the first resurrection are in fact resurrected

standing. That is their spirit and soul have been joined with their glorified body and they are reigning and have a part in the first resurrection during the 1000 year reign prior to all others being raised in the second tesurrection
 
Ok so then those who have a part in the first resurrection are in fact resurrected

standing. That is their spirit and soul have been joined with their glorified body and they are reigning and have a part in the first resurrection during the 1000 year reign prior to all others being raised in the second tesurrection

The above is correct. Just FYI, those who are resurrected at Rev.20:4-6 are the great tribulation saints who will have died for keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. The resurrection of the church, which is also apart of the first resurrection, takes place prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which are the wrath of God, where the resurrection of the great tribulation saints takes place after the wrath of God.
 
The rest of the dead referred to in Rev.20:5 are the unrighteous dead who are later described as being resurrected in Rev.20:11-15. The reason that they are being resurrected at the end of the thousand years, is because they will not have belonged to the first resurrection. These are those who will have died throughout all of history with their spirits/souls going into Sheol/Hades until the great white throne judgment.

I agree that the "rest of the dead" in that context refers to the unsaved. But to be clear, the second resurrection involves everyone who has died coming back physically. The first resurrection is NOT a physical one, it is a spiritual one only for believers.
 
Hello miknik5, the above is false, as it is not a true resurrection in the sense of the word. PW is talking about believers being raised with Christ and seated in heavenly places. Well, as you can see for yourself, we are not currently seated in heaven, are we? So our being raised with Christ and being seated in heavenly places is referring to the fact that the promise is sure and guaranteed. I would liken that statement to having dinner reservations at a nice restaurant, where though we are not at the restaurant yet, our places are already set up there waiting for our arrival. Same with our being raised with Christ, our places are ready and secure, but we haven't arrived yet.

Brother AH, I am correct. Becoming "Born again" is the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20. The first resurrection is not the bodily resurrection, it is the spiritual resurrection of the Believer.

John 11:26

And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Well, we all die. Therefore this "death" spoken of here is the spiritual death which is the second death. The only way to avoid the second death is to be part of the first resurrection. The second resurrection, which is the physical one, does not guarantee freedom from the second death because everyone, just and unjust, are resurrected physically at the last day.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power...

The only way for the above statement to be true is if the first resurrection = being born again.
 
I agree that the "rest of the dead" in that context refers to the unsaved. But to be clear, the second resurrection involves everyone who has died coming back physically. The first resurrection is NOT a physical one, it is a spiritual one only for believers.

I guess that is where we disagree and that because the resurrection always has to do with the body standing up again. People who die are not being resurrected at the time of death. When they leave their bodies they are going to be in the presence of the Lord. It is not until the resurrection takes place that those who are in Christ's presence are reunited with their resurrected bodies which at that time will be glorified and immortal. A Believers spirit/soul departing from the body is not a resurrection.

To be clear, there is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection and that because resurrection always has to do with the body standing up again.
 


Hello miknik5, the above is false, as it is not a true resurrection in the sense of the word. PW is talking about believers being raised with Christ and seated in heavenly places. Well, as you can see for yourself, we are not currently seated in heaven, are we? So our being raised with Christ and being seated in heavenly places is referring to the fact that the promise is sure and guaranteed. I would liken that statement to having dinner reservations at a nice restaurant, where though we are not at the restaurant yet, our places are already set up there waiting for our arrival. Same with our being raised with Christ, our places are ready and secure, but we haven't arrived yet.

In regards to "anastasis" which is what the word "resurrection" is translated from, it always refers to the body standing up again. To be clear and what I have made known to PW, when a person dies and their spirit/soul departs from the body, that is not a resurrection. It is simply the spirit/soul departing and going to be in the presence of the Lord. It is not a resurrection until those spirit/souls are reunited with their resurrected bodies. Another example of the bodily resurrection is when Lazarus and Tabitha were brought back to life. Though they were made alive in their mortal bodies, it is still a resurrection according to the meaning of the word.

A person IS NOT resurrected at the moment that they come to Christ. This is a twisting of scripture. All of the resurrections spoken of are physical, bodily, resurrections. Here is the definition according to Strong's and Word Helps:

===================================

Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising​
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body). Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

I see the disconnect. You are taking the literal meaning of resurrection. As I pointed out, John uses figurative language in Revelation all over the place. In fact he uses figurative more then literal. In Rev 20 John is using the literal word for "resurrection" to mean the spiritual resurrection.

This is the same thing he does when he uses "beasts" to mean "evil kingdom" and "sea" to equal Muslims, "stars" to mean messengers, "lampstand" to mean church, "waters" to equal people, "tree" to equal grass, "mountain" to equal religion, "light" to represent Christian.

As I mentioned, you have to be very careful when attempting to understand Revelation. Otherwise you are going to see all kinds of crazy stuff which aren't literal.


 
I guess that is where we disagree and that because the resurrection always has to do with the body standing up again. People who die are not being resurrected at the time of death. When they leave their bodies they are going to be in the presence of the Lord. It is not until the resurrection takes place that those who are in Christ's presence are reunited with their resurrected bodies which at that time will be glorified and immortal. A Believers spirit/soul departing from the body is not a resurrection.

To be clear, there is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection and that because resurrection always has to do with the body standing up again.

Please see my last post. We are close in what we believe. But I have to add, you are with the Lord, whether you sleep or wake. You are reigning with the Lord whether sleep or awake (dead or alive) The only way that is possible is to be "Born Again." Remember that the kingdom comes without observation. We don't need to wait for Christ to return as the Kingdom is within us. So by very definition, we are alive and reigning with Christ from the time we are saved, through death and into the next world. There are plenty of verses which teach this.

In Rev 20, John is merely substituting "first resurrection" for "born again." Just replace "first resurrection" with "born again" in Rev 20 and you will be more comfortable for you.
 
In Rev 20 John is using the literal word for "resurrection" to mean the spiritual resurrection


And, what in the context would lead you to interpret Rev.20:5-6 as a figurative spiritual resurrection? It is in fact a literal resurrection of the great tribulation saints which takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. First John sees them dead from beheading, then he says that they came to life. Also, I am well versed in Revelation, because I the book.

This is the same thing he does when he uses "beasts" to mean "evil kingdom" and "sea" to equal Muslims, "stars" to mean messengers, "lampstand" to mean church, "waters" to equal people, "tree" to equal grass, "mountain" to equal religion, "light" to represent Christian.

The context should always determine the meaning behind what is used figuratively. You have "sea" as referring to Muslims, yet there is nothing in the context that would support that. "Stars" is symbolic representing several different things, such as messengers, whether human or angelic, fallen angels, the twelve tribes of Israel, meteorites, comets, asteroids, etc. As I said, it is the context that defines the meaning.


 
Because you do not understand Dan 9:27, which I have shown you what it really means, you have invented a 7 year Tribulation for the world. There is no teaching of a 7- year attack on Israel. Israel could never last that long given the number of troops which we are told come against her in Eze 38. Daniel really teaches that the GT of Israel lasts 45 days and Jesus said even those days would be cut short.

There are two beasts in Rev 13. The Beast of the Sea is already active. Hint: The sea are Muslims. It's leader has already been saying blasphemous things. It continues for 42 months. The beast from the earth (I assume this is the abyss?) comes afterward. Capiche!!




The 70 weeks of years prophecy in Dan.9:24-27 is the decree of God, pertaining to the disposition of Israel, from the time of their 70 year exile to Babylon and Persia, to the second coming of Christ. When the remnant of them left, after the tribulation, have been reconciled back to God. That is what it is all about. Review the following to learn the reasons for the prophecy to begin with. When you have done that, let me see you prove your false claim, "I know nothing about Dan.9:27." What you have "shown Me" already, is allegorical nonsense that contradicts the teaching of the Bible!

70 Weeks prophecy in Daniel of 490 years was based on the reasons for their 70 year exile to Babylon in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum



Quasar92
 
The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. stopped the clock, it started back in in 1967.
 
Here's more of what I understand about Dan 9:24-27:

Seventy Weeks Are Determined Upon Thy People!

The following is a complete analysis Of the amazing prophecy found in the book of Daniel. We will begin in Dan.9:24 where the angel Gabriel is giving this prophecy to Daniel, the prophet.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

1. Referrence here is to what God has decreed upon Daniel's people, Israel. (It has nothing at all to do with the church!)

2. See Gen.29:27 to explain that this biblical term of "one week" equals seven years. So the 70 weeks here, represents a total of 490 years, or 7 X 70.)

Vs.25. "Know, therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks; (49 + 420 + 14 = 483 years, covering 69 of the 70 weeks,) the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (See Neh.1:6.)

According to the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England, the exact date of King Artaxerxes, of Persia, gave the decree for some of the Israeli exiles to return to Jerusalem on March 14, 445 BC.

From the 69 weeks (Of years) from above, or 483 years, multiplied by the 360 days of the Hebrew year, equals 173,880 days.

Vs.26. "And after threescore and two weeks (Following the first 7 weeks, or 49 years to complete the rebuilding of the second temple and to restore and build Jerusalem.) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself; (This culminates at a total of 69 weeks, or 483 years from the Persian King, Artaxerxes Decree on March 14th, 445 BC.) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end of it shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

After Jesus has been crucified, the Roman (prince) Titus comes with his legions and destroys Jerusalem and the second temple in 70 AD, after bitter fighting, scattering Israel and the Jewish people into their diaspora.

To establish the time Jesus began His ministry, and approximate age, we find the evidence in Luke 3:1 and 3:23.

Lk.3:1. "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilot being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip, tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Thrachonitis and Lysanias, the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness."

Which brings us to 29 AD and Jesus is about 30 years of age.

Lk.3:23. "And Jesus Himself began to be about 30 years of age, (When all Jewish priests begin their priesthood.) being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli,"

Back to Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks of years decreed upon his people, for a moment. We have determined as we fast close on all of the 69 weeks, 483 years, and 173,880 days in the Hebrew 360 day year as to exactly where it will take us.

Jn.12:12-13. "On the next day many people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees and and went forth to meet Him, and cried Hosanna! Blessed is the King of Israel, that cometh in the name of the Lord." April 6th 32 AD. (According to Sir Robert Armstrong, of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.)

Exactly 173,880 days from King Artaxerxes of Persia, decree of March 14,445 BC. [From Neh.2:1-8. Based on the 360 day Hebrew year. Which makes no difference whatever from a 365 day year].

360 X 483 = 173,880 days.

1. 32 years [AD] X 365 days in our year = 11,680 days.
2. 445 years [BC] X 365 days in our year = 162,425 days.
3. Total 174,105 days divided by 365 = 477 years.
4. Plus 24 days between the date of the decree in 445 BC and Jesus cut-off in 32 AD = 477 years, 24 days
5. Subtract one year because there is no year zero between 1 BC and 1 AD. = 476 years, 24 days.
6. 476 years X 365 days = 173,740 days +24 = 173,764 Days
7. Add days of the leap years over 476 years. Divided by 4 = 119 days = 173,883 days
8. Subtract 1/128 Calendar year day for every solar year: Leap year omitted every 128 years.= -3 days
= 173,880 days! Terminating at the crucifiction of Jesus in

Which reveals the 360 day prophetic year of Israel is the very same as our present 365 day year when all the corrections have been made to the latter.

The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, of the final 7 years, is the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble (Jer.30:7.) which will conclude the 490 year prophecy decreed upon his people, with a 2,000 year parenthetic in between, that covers the entire church age!

Dan.9:27. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Which is the yet t come, seven year tribulation. Jesus amplified the final 3.5 years of it, called the Great Tribulation in Mt.24; Mk.13; Lk.21 and in Rev.6.



Quasar92
 
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The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. stopped the clock, it started back in in 1967.



God's clock has not yet restarted and won't until the rapture of the Church, followed by the revealing of the man of lawlessness/the Antichrist, who triggers the seven year tribulation, as recorded in Dan.9:27; 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Quasar92
 

Please see my last post. We are close in what we believe. But I have to add, you are with the Lord, whether you sleep or wake. You are reigning with the Lord whether sleep or awake (dead or alive) The only way that is possible is to be "Born Again." Remember that the kingdom comes without observation. We don't need to wait for Christ to return as the Kingdom is within us. So by very definition, we are alive and reigning with Christ from the time we are saved, through death and into the next world. There are plenty of verses which teach this.

In Rev 20, John is merely substituting "first resurrection" for "born again." Just replace "first resurrection" with "born again" in Rev 20 and you will be more comfortable for you.
We are saved by hope. Hope in HIM that when HE comes and at HIS coming HE will change our lowly bodies but that isn't the fullness of our hope. It's to see HIM, to gaze upon HIM as HE is

CHEIST OUR LIFE AND OUR BLESSED HOPE

It really is CHRIST in us who is our very hope of Glory
ans those who hope in HIM are receiving the goal of their faith


HIM
 

The above is correct. Just FYI, those who are resurrected at Rev.20:4-6 are the great tribulation saints who will have died for keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. The resurrection of the church, which is also apart of the first resurrection, takes place prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which are the wrath of God, where the resurrection of the great tribulation saints takes place after the wrath of God.
There is no resurrection at rev 20.

The martyrs are killed early on in the GT. They are found in heaven as the innumerable number,and are in glorified bodies.

It says The lamb will feed them. IOW, they are already resurrected.

The parable of the wedding feast has multiple harvests.

Disembodied spirits would not eat.

So,a resurrection at rev 20 would disenfranchise the innumerable number.( at the wedding supper)

The fact that " he feeds them"(the innumerable number) is key.

It says in rev 20 of those in the first resurrection"they",that is referring to all of the first resurrection,not just the martyrs.

To top it off,that concept actually excludes many of the dead in Christ of 1 thes 4. For many of those are martyrs,so they would not sit on thrones.

Iow,they need to wait for rev 20.

See the multiple conflicts?
 
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The prism for all the business in heaven is the wedding.

All seem to ignore this.

I alone am bringing this forward.

It is the purpose of the rapture.

THE PURPOSE.