THE RAPTURE

[Wall]

Hello Wall,

Just FYI, the scripture that you used above is figurative for Israel being reestablished in the land of Israel and is not speaking about them literally coming out of their graves. This is not referring to a literal resurrection. Read the entire context there in Ezek. 37.

Just read Zeke 37 again. In no way is this chapter speaking of the Jews wandering back to Israel. Not even close. Looks like scripture explaining 1Thes4.

EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word.

[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
[25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

One shepherd.

[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Verses 26 and 27. These 2 scriptures make it very obvious it aint as you say. MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE = “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. This surely has not come to pass already as you claim. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. The gathering of Gods people to the kingdom

 

[Ahwatukee]

Just read Zeke 37 again. In no way is this chapter speaking of the Jews wandering back to Israel. Not even close. Looks like scripture explaining 1Thes4.

EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word.

[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
[25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

One shepherd.

[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Verses 26 and 27. These 2 scriptures make it very obvious it aint as you say. MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE = “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. This surely has not come to pass already as you claim. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. The gathering of Gods people to the kingdom

1 Thes.4:13-17 is regarding the church. God will deal with the nation Israel during those last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon them. The church is not here during that last seven years, because the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowls will be poured out during that time. When that abomination is set up in the holy place, this will cause the desolation if Israel/Judea and the woman/Israel will be cared for by God out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years. God is going to deal with Israel proper during that time. The church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, is a separate entity from the nation Israel.

Ezk.37 is in no way speaking about a resurrection, but is about God regathering them back into her land. All you are doing to prove your point is misapplying scripture.

There's THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

The dead in Christ will be all of those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church until the resurrection takes place. Immediately after that, living believers in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. The nation Israel proper will remain on the earth after the church has been gathered. Some time after the gathering of the church, the antichrist will be revealed by making his seven year covenant with Israel, which will allow them to build their long await temple. They will begin to sacrifice again and 3 1/2 years after the antichrist makes that covenant, he will stop the sacrifices and offerings and will set up that abomination, which is what causes the woman/Israel to flee out into the wilderness where God will care for them for that last 3 1/2 years until Christ returns.

All you are doing is misapplying scripture.

 

[PlainWord]

I asked this question before and there was no scriptural answer givin. One posted an opinion but no one gave any scripture to explain Zeke 37

Eze 37 is the rebirth of Israel's military might. During the time of David, she was the dominant military power. This chapter tells us that Israel will once again become the strongest military power in the region, which she is today. Eze 37 is fulfilled. Next up? The Invasion of Gog and Magog, which is AKA "the Great Tribulation."

 

[PlainWord]

The rapture is 1thes4.

The parallel is the last supper,mat 25,mat 24,the parable of the wedding with the Jews refusing to come,Jesus' first miracle at the wedding,and rev 19,just off the top of my head.

Besides ,rev 14 forever seals postrib rapture as a impossibility,because you post guys now have a gathering before the declaration of 1 thes 4,which says the dead precede the living.

So yes your deal is answered again,and again,is shown unscriptural.

I find it interesting that you use parables to support a timing which is not otherwise taught. In fact, you use parables as authority to contradict timing which is clearly taught. What does Jesus say about parables?

Matthew 13:13

Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

. Maybe it isn't such a good idea to allow parables to contradict clear teaching, just saying. The clear teaching of Christ's return clearly taught is: 1) "after the Tribulation of those days," and 2) "after the falling away and appearance of the Man of Sin." These timings agree with each other. Paul specifically tells us:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (DAY CHRIST RETURNS) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...

Why do you suppose it matters that we are not to be deceived by this sequence given? Jesus repeats this:

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

The Deception and falling away come before Christ returns. Once Christ returns, we are told "every eye will see and every knee will bow." There can't be any deception after this.

 

[popeye]

I find it interesting that you use parables to support a timing which is not otherwise taught. In fact, you use parables as authority to contradict timing which is clearly taught. What does Jesus say about parables?

Matthew 13:13

Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

. Maybe it isn't such a good idea to allow parables to contradict clear teaching, just saying. The clear teaching of Christ's return clearly taught is: 1) "after the Tribulation of those days," and 2) "after the falling away and appearance of the Man of Sin." These timings agree with each other. Paul specifically tells us:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (DAY CHRIST RETURNS) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...

Why do you suppose it matters that we are not to be deceived by this sequence given? Jesus repeats this:

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

The Deception and falling away come before Christ returns. Once Christ returns, we are told "every eye will see and every knee will bow." There can't be any deception after this.

The parables are only dangerous,as you imply,to those that ascribe bizarre meanings to its pure structure.

They are stories within a story. Seems like that negatively impacts your deal?

My deal is Bride/Bridegroom/catching away/heaven/wedding supper.
Then the return after the Gt.

When I sit and talk to believers outside the forum,I present tons of verses off the top of my head to their one or 2 verses.

The difference is,I can make my case without ANY parable.

The parables TIE IN,they are NOT my foundation.

The other difference is,most any challenger of myself, MUST,ABSOLUTELY must,pervert the parables I bring forward.

Now,who is decieved,since I DO NOT NEED a single component of ANY parable bent,twisted,or extracted to harmonize with the no brainer stories of the parables.

Deception is already here.

Look at the insanity of the Obama worshippers,look at France's embracing of Muslims destroying them,look at the Hillary worshippers.The racism they promote is appalling,but the masses that are duped,are more appalling

Insanity,and deception are last days brothers that are already here.

Stupid people are it's clients.

That is the playground for the AC to arrive and deceive.

The stupid ones are already worshipping man. All that is needed is a shift into the "real god",or,Satan man. It will be as natural as buttering a biscuit.

 

[popeye]

Plainword.

Your deal is in overworking the AC, and muslimGT component.

If you shift into the groom,wedding,business in heaven realm,you will find yourself in another dimension.

 

[popeye]

Heard a preacher on the radio today speaking on the rapture. He said folk ask him if the rapture were Biblical, why isn't the word rapture in the Bible? He said he tells them the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, nor the word millennial, nor the word Bible itself, yet we believe in them.

Ooops

Sorry I called your post a non issue.

I responded to the wrong person/post.

My humble apologies

 

[popeye]

1 Thes.4:13-17 is regarding the church. God will deal with the nation Israel during those last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon them. The church is not here during that last seven years, because the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowls will be poured out during that time. When that abomination is set up in the holy place, this will cause the desolation if Israel/Judea and the woman/Israel will be cared for by God out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years. God is going to deal with Israel proper during that time. The church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, is a separate entity from the nation Israel.

Ezk.37 is in no way speaking about a resurrection, but is about God regathering them back into her land. All you are doing to prove your point is misapplying scripture.



The dead in Christ will be all of those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church until the resurrection takes place. Immediately after that, living believers in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. The nation Israel proper will remain on the earth after the church has been gathered. Some time after the gathering of the church, the antichrist will be revealed by making his seven year covenant with Israel, which will allow them to build their long await temple. They will begin to sacrifice again and 3 1/2 years after the antichrist makes that covenant, he will stop the sacrifices and offerings and will set up that abomination, which is what causes the woman/Israel to flee out into the wilderness where God will care for them for that last 3 1/2 years until Christ returns.

All you are doing is misapplying scripture.

Yep.

There is such a desperation to make the rapture post trib.

I am thinking it scares the Daylights out of them ,and it should. Got to be ready.

I have made radical changes over the last 8 or so months. I hope I am ready.

The rapture is here. It will be very soon. It is possible that it is already too late to start getting ready.

The world is set for the one world rule,and worship of the false messiah,and Jesus'return for his bride.

No brainer.

 

[49]

Ooops

Sorry I called your post a non issue.

I responded to the wrong person/post.

My humble apologies

No apologies necessary, and thanks. All good; figured it was to another post.

 

[Wall]

See now you have the bride of Jehovah, Israel with the bride of Christ which is the church. A little dispensational understanding would go a long way to correcting your errors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So now we have 2 brides. I saw that one coming. If there was but one bride the rapture theory would go down the tubes. Kinda like the last trumpet aint really the last trumpet. If 1Cor15 was really the last trumpet {as scripture proves} the rapture theory again would go down the tubes. And if scripture below....

EZEK.37 [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.


.....was speaking of a resurrection. Then the rapture theory goes down the tubes

And on and on it goes.

 

[JaumeJ]

Trump of the Lord. The dead will rise and be taken up to meet Christ in the clouds. After this we who yet remain will be gathered up and taken also to meet Him.

I know of no other reference to what has been named the "rapture."

 

[popeye]

Trump of the Lord. The dead will rise and be taken up to meet Christ in the clouds. After this we who yet remain will be gathered up and taken also to meet Him.

I know of no other reference to what has been named the "rapture."

Note that there is NO SPACE in between the rapture of the dead and alive bride.

"...then those alive shall be caught up TOGETHER With them in the clouds,to meet the Lord in the air."

 

[popeye]

So now we have 2 brides. I saw that one coming. If there was but one bride the rapture theory would go down the tubes. Kinda like the last trumpet aint really the last trumpet. If 1Cor15 was really the last trumpet {as scripture proves} the rapture theory again would go down the tubes. And if scripture below....

EZEK.37 [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.


.....was speaking of a resurrection. Then the rapture theory goes down the tubes

And on and on it goes.

The trumpet deal is a fluke.

None of the trumpet centered doctrine addresses the "trump" in depth.

Twice in revelation God's voice sounds like a trumpet.

Then with the 7trumpets,(the EVER FAMOUS SEVEN TRUMPETS),Angels sound them,NOT GOD.

Now the famous,non trumpet issue trumpet cornerstone:

"....with a SHOUT,with the VOICE of the archangel,with the TRUMP of God...."

You guys have such shaky cornerstones.

Shaky foundation,with wild ascribing grand canyon leaps.

The trump thing is TOTALLY UNCLEAR.

 

[notuptome]

So now we have 2 brides. I saw that one coming. If there was but one bride the rapture theory would go down the tubes. Kinda like the last trumpet aint really the last trumpet. If 1Cor15 was really the last trumpet {as scripture proves} the rapture theory again would go down the tubes. And if scripture below....

EZEK.37 [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.


.....was speaking of a resurrection. Then the rapture theory goes down the tubes

And on and on it goes.

Israel has long been described by Jehovah God as the bride of Jehovah a stiff necked, disobedient people rebellious and doomed for captivity. The bride of Jehovah often is seen going a whoring after other gods.

The bride of Christ is seen a pure and chaste obedient and surrendered to Christ.

Again a little dispensational knowledge goes a long way in understanding what the scripture is teaching.

The question is why do you rebel against Gods plan? What do you have against God? You are exchanging the revelation of God for one of your own making.

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is clearly written to believers and does not represent what awaits unbelievers.

1 Thess 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here again Paul is writing of the body of believers not the lost souls of condemned men.

This is the hope of believers not those who rejected Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Gladstone]

Since there are already antichrists in the world, when a man descends from the clouds proclaiming to be Jesus Christ, will he be the true Christ or another antichrist? How can we discern one from the other, presuming the antichrist would seemingly be fulfilling everything we believe Christ will upon his return? Basically, is it time for the real Christ or another grand deception?

 

[JaumeJ]

When Christ appears on the clouds, and all who are in Christ are taken up to meet Him, there will be no question as to Who He is..

Faith is believing in things unseen and yet unseen. If you believe, there is no question about being certain, just learn the Word of truth from Jesus Christ, and you cannot go wrong, but remember, learn It.

 

[popeye]

Since there are already antichrists in the world, when a man descends from the clouds proclaiming to be Jesus Christ, will he be the true Christ or another antichrist? How can we discern one from the other, presuming the antichrist would seemingly be fulfilling everything we believe Christ will upon his return? Basically, is it time for the real Christ or another grand deception?

Both.

Spiritual things are discerned through the spirit.

The baptism of the HS was given for a reason.

So many tell the HS they don't need it.

So,will many be decieved?

Yes,they sure will

 

[popeye]

When Christ appears on the clouds, and all who are in Christ are taken up to meet Him, there will be no question as to Who He is..

Faith is believing in things unseen and yet unseen. If you believe, there is no question about being certain, just learn the Word of truth from Jesus Christ, and you cannot go wrong, but remember, learn It.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Ahwatukee]

Since there are already antichrists in the world, when a man descends from the clouds proclaiming to be Jesus Christ, will he be the true Christ or another antichrist? How can we discern one from the other, presuming the antichrist would seemingly be fulfilling everything we believe Christ will upon his return? Basically, is it time for the real Christ or another grand deception?

Good morning Gladstone,

Though the antichrist will have satanic counterfeit powers, he is not going to be able to mimic Christ by descending from heaven. Not only that, but when Christ appears he will raise the dead and the living will be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, that would be a pretty good indication that He is the true Lord, for the antichrist would not and will not be able to perform that feat.

 

[notuptome]

Since there are already antichrists in the world, when a man descends from the clouds proclaiming to be Jesus Christ, will he be the true Christ or another antichrist? How can we discern one from the other, presuming the antichrist would seemingly be fulfilling everything we believe Christ will upon his return? Basically, is it time for the real Christ or another grand deception?

Many who despise the rapture will be quick to use the concept that it is a secret rapture. When the Lord Jesus returns for His bride the church it is only the bride the church who will see Him. The conversion from here to into His presence is done in the twinkling of an eye.

The unsaved world will not see the Lord descending into the clouds until He returns to rescue Israel at the end of the tribulation. He will then continue to descend and set foot in Jerusalem.

For the cause of Christ
Roger