THE RAPTURE

[RobbyEarl]

The pre trib rapture has deceived so many churchs, and there isn't any use trying to debate it when you are fully convinced.
I'm guilty of being convinced of my beliefs too, but in the end Jesus will judge our hearts and see our faith, not our doctrines, or our understanding of doctrines, the thing that counts is how close we are with Jesus, Do i kNOW Him? knowing Him is more important than knowing when he will come. when these events happen i'm sure no one will be 100% correct or accurate about the way it all happens but i know that if i'm prepared to go through the time of trouble with Jesus and knowing my faith will be tested i will be more prepared then those that think they will not face any trials.

Show biblically where God has destroyed the just with the wicked. He always provides an escape. The closest one is the Babylonian captivity, but they were protected and elevated and released. They were told by the prophet to go into that captivity. But thank God we have a new covenant that has come to take the captivity captive. God will not and would be righteous to kill his children with the wicked by His own hand. Granted, God has allowed the church to be terrorized in times past and His children killed, but not by His doing. There are many OT examples of God sparing His children when He was destroying a nation or city.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Please note, God didn't take the sinner's away, they stayed and drowned.
God did take Noah away.
As it was in the days of Noah.
First the warning.
Then the moving of God's people.
Then the wrath.

First the warning.
Then the pre trib rapture. ( the moving of God's people ).
Then the wrath.

We ARE NOT appointed to wrath. 1 Thess 5: 9.

There is a pre tribulation rapture, and there is a coming earthly Kingdom where we will come back with Jesus and He shall reign for 1000 years.

Um, yes those outside of the ark were taken away by the flood, as can be demonstrated below:

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[SUP]f[/SUP] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

Verse 38, says "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark." Then verse 39 says "and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away." Therefore, those who were eating and eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage are in opposition to Noah who entered the ark and were the "they" who did not know what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.

We ARE NOT appointed to wrath. 1 Thess 5: 9.

There is a pre tribulation rapture, and there is a coming earthly Kingdom where we will come back with Jesus and He shall reign for 1000 years.

yes, I agree with the above.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The pre trib rapture has deceived so many churchs, and there isn't any use trying to debate it when you are fully convinced.
I'm guilty of being convinced of my beliefs too, but in the end Jesus will judge our hearts and see our faith, not our doctrines, or our understanding of doctrines, the thing that counts is how close we are with Jesus, Do i kNOW Him? knowing Him is more important than knowing when he will come. when these events happen i'm sure no one will be 100% correct or accurate about the way it all happens but i know that if i'm prepared to go through the time of trouble with Jesus and knowing my faith will be tested i will be more prepared then those that think they will not face any trials.

The Lord told his disciples and therefore all believers that, he was going to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us and that he would return and take us back to the Father's house to those dwelling places. The fulfillment of the promise is found in 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53. Since we are not appointed to suffer wrath and God's wrath will take place in between now and the time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age, then believers must be removed prior to the beginning of God's wrath.

Also, it is very important for us to be watching for the Lord's return because He told us to. It is referred to as the blessed hope and there would be no blessed hope if we were to go through God's wrath.


Gathering of the church |<----------- Seven Years of Wrath ------------> The Lord's return to the earth

 

[bikerchaz]

Yeah bikerchaz. The kingdom will be great. If i make it, Ill be planting some tomatos along with those trees.

Just stand and hang on to Jesus coat tails, He wont let you go as long as you hold on tight (and that is not doing for salvation, Jesus has already done the 'doing' its the 'me accepting') and we will share a tomato sandwich and a glass of new wine.

 

[God4me]

Um, yes those outside of the ark were taken away by the flood, as can be demonstrated below:

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[SUP]f[/SUP] but only the Father.37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

Verse 38, says "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark." Then verse 39 says "and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away." Therefore, those who were eating and eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage are in opposition to Noah who entered the ark and were the "they" who did not know what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.



yes, I agree with the above.[/COLOR]

It doesn't change the fact that,
First the warning.
Then the moving of God's people to safety.
Then the wrath.
The Church isn't appointed to wrath.

 

[God4me]

The pre trib rapture has deceived so many churchs, and there isn't any use trying to debate it when you are fully convinced.
I'm guilty of being convinced of my beliefs too, but in the end Jesus will judge our hearts and see our faith, not our doctrines, or our understanding of doctrines, the thing that counts is how close we are with Jesus, Do i kNOW Him? knowing Him is more important than knowing when he will come. when these events happen i'm sure no one will be 100% correct or accurate about the way it all happens but i know that if i'm prepared to go through the time of trouble with Jesus and knowing my faith will be tested i will be more prepared then those that think they will not face any trials.

It's those who teach against the pre trib rapture that has deceived people.
You are calling Jesus a liar.
See Matt 25: 1--13. Jn 14: 1--3. 1 Thess 4: 15--18.
When Jesus comes back to reign ALL His people come back with Him. Zech 14: 5. Rev 19: 14. 1 Thess 2: 19.
1 Thess 3: 13.

So how can we be on earth going through the tribulation period, and in heaven having the wedding feast, At the same time.
How can we be on earth, going through the tribulation, and coming back with Jesus?.. We are either one place or the other, And the Bible says we will be in heaven during the tribulation period, then come back with Jesus.

So you can see that you are guilty, Guilty of error.
What is also important is, We know and believe the Bible, Not your own beliefs. The Bible is given so we can know what God has said, and believe it.

There are no scriptures that say the Church goes through the tribulation period, The Jews, backsliders and those who get saved during the tribulation, will go through it, But the Church isn't appointed to wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It doesn't change the fact that,
First the warning.
Then the moving of God's people to safety.
Then the wrath.
The Church isn't appointed to wrath.

I agree with the above. But my point was/is that the "one taken" group is not representing the catching away of the church as so many erroneously claim, but is representing the wicked who are taken by the angels. Another proof of this can be found in Luke's version of the same scripture:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

In the scripture above, Jesus says, "One will be taken and the other left." His disciples then ask, "where Lord?" i.e. where are they going to be taken? And the Lord says "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." That would be a pretty strange response if those who being taken are representing the gathering of the church. But those who are being taken is not representing the gathering of the church. In Jesus response he is referring to an event that takes place at the time that he is descending to the earth to end the age, when all of those kings and their armies are gathered at Armageddon as depicted in Rev.19:11-21

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

As Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, at the same time an angel will be calling all of the birds/vultures to come and gather together to eat the flesh of all of those people who will be killed by the double-edged sword proceeding from the Lord's mouth, which is figurative for the word of God. The Lord will speak, all those gathered will fall dead and those birds who are gathered will eat their flesh. This is what the Lord was referring to when he said, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." The "one taken" group are also represented in the parable in Mt.13 as the weeds, where at the end of the age, the harvesters, who are figurative for angels, go throughout the earth and "first" gather the weeds.

 

[God4me]

I agree with the above. But my point was/is that the "one taken" group is not representing the catching away of the church as so many erroneously claim, but is representing the wicked who are taken by the angels. Another proof of this can be found in Luke's version of the same scripture:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

In the scripture above, Jesus says, "One will be taken and the other left." His disciples then ask, "where Lord?" i.e. where are they going to be taken? And the Lord says "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." That would be a pretty strange response if those who being taken are representing the gathering of the church. But those who are being taken is not representing the gathering of the church. In Jesus response he is referring to an event that takes place at the time that he is descending to the earth to end the age, when all of those kings and their armies are gathered at Armageddon as depicted in Rev.19:11-21

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

As Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, at the same time an angel will be calling all of the birds/vultures to come and gather together to eat the flesh of all of those people who will be killed by the double-edged sword proceeding from the Lord's mouth, which is figurative for the word of God. The Lord will speak, all those gathered will fall dead and those birds who are gathered will eat their flesh. This is what the Lord was referring to when he said, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." The "one taken" group are also represented in the parable in Mt.13 as the weeds, where at the end of the age, the harvesters, who are figurative for angels, go throughout the earth and "first" gather the weeds.

The days on Noah, Replies to the moving of God's people to safety, Then the wrath.
The one taken, Is the saved person going up in the rapture, See Matt 24: 40--42, Watch, for we know not the hour, If we stay on earth when the antichrist comes, We'll know how long we'll have left, But we don't know when we will be raptured.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The days on Noah, Replies to the moving of God's people to safety, Then the wrath.
The one taken, Is the saved person going up in the rapture, See Matt 24: 40--42, Watch, for we know not the hour, If we stay on earth when the antichrist comes, We'll know how long we'll have left, But we don't know when we will be raptured.

I already showed you through scripture that the "one taken" group are being compared with the wicked who were taken away in the flood. If you can't understand that, then believe what you will, but it's not the truth. The "one taken" is not representing the church being caught up. Another reason is that "one take, one left" would be 50% of the people being Christian and I can tell you just be observing the world that 50% are not Christians. Also, it is the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath that you are not comprehending. For if you did, you would not be claiming that the church will be here on the earth during that time. You are also not believing in the scriptures that say we are not appointed to suffer wrath and that again is because you don't understand the wrath that is coming. Because God's wrath is going to affect all inhabitants on the entire earth, there will be no safe place. The only people who are protected during that time will be the woman/Israel who will be cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years and the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne around the middle of the seven years. According to the Lord's promise, I continue to watch and listen for that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here."

 

[God4me]

I already showed you through scripture that the "one taken" group are being compared with the wicked who were taken away in the flood. If you can't understand that, then believe what you will, but it's not the truth. The "one taken" is not representing the church being caught up. Another reason is that "one take, one left" would be 50% of the people being Christian and I can tell you just be observing the world that 50% are not Christians. Also, it is the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath that you are not comprehending. For if you did, you would not be claiming that the church will be here on the earth during that time. You are also not believing in the scriptures that say we are not appointed to suffer wrath and that again is because you don't understand the wrath that is coming. Because God's wrath is going to affect all inhabitants on the entire earth, there will be no safe place. The only people who are protected during that time will be the woman/Israel who will be cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years and the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne around the middle of the seven years. According to the Lord's promise, I continue to watch and listen for that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here."

Where in the end times, does the Bible say the wicked will be taken and the righteous left.
The ones who are left could be the back sliders, because according to Jesus, only half the Church goes up on the rapture.
And with this deceiving false grace teaching growing the way it is, many many people are living in sin.

Your view makes God a respecter of people. Because if, as you say, they aren't the Church that are left, That will.mean God chosen to take some and not others.

 

[popeye]

I agree with the above. But my point was/is that the "one taken" group is not representing the catching away of the church as so many erroneously claim, but is representing the wicked who are taken by the angels. Another proof of this can be found in Luke's version of the same scripture:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

In the scripture above, Jesus says, "One will be taken and the other left." His disciples then ask, "where Lord?" i.e. where are they going to be taken? And the Lord says "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." That would be a pretty strange response if those who being taken are representing the gathering of the church. But those who are being taken is not representing the gathering of the church. In Jesus response he is referring to an event that takes place at the time that he is descending to the earth to end the age, when all of those kings and their armies are gathered at Armageddon as depicted in Rev.19:11-21

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

As Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, at the same time an angel will be calling all of the birds/vultures to come and gather together to eat the flesh of all of those people who will be killed by the double-edged sword proceeding from the Lord's mouth, which is figurative for the word of God. The Lord will speak, all those gathered will fall dead and those birds who are gathered will eat their flesh. This is what the Lord was referring to when he said, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." The "one taken" group are also represented in the parable in Mt.13 as the weeds, where at the end of the age, the harvesters, who are figurative for angels, go throughout the earth and "first" gather the weeds.

No,it almost has to be the rapture.

Only gathering of wicked is at the GWTJ.

IT says he will send angels to gather out of his kingdom all that offend. That will be after the millennium.

The "one taken" is in a peacetime setting,as is the 10 virgin parable. For it to be post trib/wrath you need a destroyed hostile earth where no normal activities are observed.

There is no gathering of wicked post trib. (wicked raptured)

Sorry to disagree,but it doesn't fit.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Where in the end times, does the Bible say the wicked will be taken and the righteous left.
The ones who are left could be the back sliders, because according to Jesus, only half the Church goes up on the rapture.
And with this deceiving false grace teaching growing the way it is, many many people are living in sin.

Your view makes God a respecter of people. Because if, as you say, they aren't the Church that are left, That will.mean God chosen to take some and not others.

"24Jesus presented another parable to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. 26When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared. 27The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them.30Let both grow together until the harvest. At the proper time I will tell the harvesters, “First collect the weeds" and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.”

When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, at the same time, the angels will go out and first collect the weeds (wicked) to be thrown into the fire (Hades). After the wicked are gathered, then the angels will gather the wheat (righteous) and they will enter into the millennial period and repopulate the earth along with Israel. The wicked who are collected first are the "one taken" group and the "one left" are the wheat. When the Lord comes to gather His church it will be reversed. The Lord will appear and the righteous in Christ will be gathered first and the wicked will be left and that to endure the wrath of God.

 

[popeye]

Where in the end times, does the Bible say the wicked will be taken and the righteous left.
The ones who are left could be the back sliders, because according to Jesus, only half the Church goes up on the rapture.
And with this deceiving false grace teaching growing the way it is, many many people are living in sin.

Your view makes God a respecter of people. Because if, as you say, they aren't the Church that are left, That will.mean God chosen to take some and not others.

You raise an interesting question.

Who are the ones left? Sorta wicked?

 

[popeye]

"24Jesus presented another parable to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. 26When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared. 27The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them.30Let both grow together until the harvest. At the proper time I will tell the harvesters, “First collect the weeds" and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.”

When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, at the same time, the angels will go out and first collect the weeds (wicked) to be thrown into the fire (Hades). After the wicked are gathered, then the angels will gather the wheat (righteous) and they will enter into the millennial period and repopulate the earth along with Israel. The wicked who are collected first are the "one taken" group and the "one left" are the wheat. When the Lord comes to gather His church it will be reversed. The Lord will appear and the righteous in Christ will be gathered first and the wicked will be left and that to endure the wrath of God.

They are thrown into the lake of fire.

Burned

That would be after the millennium.

That is the only place people are thrown as a group into fire

 

[Ahwatukee]

Where in the end times, does the Bible say the wicked will be taken and the righteous left.
The ones who are left could be the back sliders, because according to Jesus, only half the Church goes up on the rapture.
And with this deceiving false grace teaching growing the way it is, many many people are living in sin.

Your view makes God a respecter of people. Because if, as you say, they aren't the Church that are left, That will.mean God chosen to take some and not others.

Hello God4me,

Here is the chronological order of prophetic events according scripture:

* The church is still in the process of being built

* The Lord will appear and the dead will resurrect and the living will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord.

* The antichrist will make his seven year covenant with Israel

* The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (wrath of God) will continue through the entire seven years.

* In the middle of the seven years, the abomination will be set up in the holy place and the antichrist will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

* During that last 3 1/2 years, the antichrist will have authority over the GTS until Christ returns.

* After the 7th bowl has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and he will send out his angels and they will first collect the weeds (one taken) who will be killed by that double-edged sword.

* The beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. (Rev.19:20)

* The great tribulation saints who had died will be resurrected (Rev.20:4-6)

* Satan will be thrown into the Abyss and restricted there during Christ's thousand year reign (Rev.20:1-3)

* At the end of the thousand years Satan will be released for one last rebellion, then thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)

* The unrighteous dead are resurrected and stand before God at the great white throne judgment

* This present heaven and earth depart from God's presence

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem.

* Eternity ...........................................................................

 

[Ahwatukee]

They are thrown into the lake of fire.

Burned

That would be after the millennium.

That is the only place people are thrown as a group into fire

Hello popeye,

No! When the Lord returns to end the age, the angels go out and collect the weeds (one taken) taking them to Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds out of the Lord's mouth which is figurative for the word of God. Their bodies will fall dead, but their spirits will go down into Hades until they are resurrected at the end of the thousand years. Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. At that time the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown into the lake of fire alive, those kings, generals, their armies and mighty men and the weeds will all be killed with the double-edged sword, Satan will be captured and thrown into the Abyss, the GTS will be resurrected, the millennial kingdom will begin.

 

[popeye]

The days on Noah, Replies to the moving of God's people to safety, Then the wrath.
The one taken, Is the saved person going up in the rapture, See Matt 24: 40--42, Watch, for we know not the hour, If we stay on earth when the antichrist comes, We'll know how long we'll have left, But we don't know when we will be raptured.

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Took who away? was it the people in the ark or outside the ark.

The flood took everyone, and everything away at the same time, some where safe inside the ark and the rest died.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
When He comes those that are in the ark of Christ will be saved and those that are not will be lost... No secret rapture, no earthly kingdom.

You just demonstrated a prejudgment dynamic.

You need a postjudgement dynamic.

You say,Noah was delivered after the flood.

Noah CAME BACK DOWN, after the flood.

Thanks for the pre trib rapture analogy

 

[Wall]

Just stand and hang on to Jesus coat tails, He wont let you go as long as you hold on tight (and that is not doing for salvation, Jesus has already done the 'doing' its the 'me accepting') and we will share a tomato sandwich and a glass of new wine.

Ill bring the mayo

 

[popeye]

The days on Noah, Replies to the moving of God's people to safety, Then the wrath.
The one taken, Is the saved person going up in the rapture, See Matt 24: 40--42, Watch, for we know not the hour, If we stay on earth when the antichrist comes, We'll know how long we'll have left, But we don't know when we will be raptured.

Hello popeye,

No! When the Lord returns to end the age, the angels go out and collect the weeds (one taken) taking them to Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds out of the Lord's mouth which is figurative for the word of God. Their bodies will fall dead, but their spirits will go down into Hades until they are resurrected at the end of the thousand years. Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. At that time the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown into the lake of fire alive, those kings, generals, their armies and mighty men and the weeds will all be killed with the double-edged sword, Satan will be captured and thrown into the Abyss, the GTS will be resurrected, the millennial kingdom will begin.

The setting is wrong

The sortof wicked left behind is bizarre

Then they are dealt with as a group. A raptured group.
This only happens at the get judgement,where a group is thrown into a lake of fire.

Tares burned as a group.

Another thing is,only half the earth,under your dynamic,is wicked,the other half are what?

 

[popeye]

Just stand and hang on to Jesus coat tails, He wont let you go as long as you hold on tight (and that is not doing for salvation, Jesus has already done the 'doing' its the 'me accepting') and we will share a tomato sandwich and a glass of new wine.

Close

The 5foolish were doing that.

Oil is the ticket for the rapture train and wedding chamber