THE RAPTURE

[miknik5]

GOD, by holding back HIS Wrath extends HIS long arm of salvation to all men. He is able to mark and seal those who are purchased by HIS BLOOD. But HIS judgement, going backwards against the creation account is not fully allowed until GOD "lets go"


And even in all these "labor pains" man does not repent to come to HIM to be saved

 

[miknik5]

Compare revelation 8 against the creation account and note how GOD allows certain things to come to pass but "skips over" the 6th day creation....man

Holding out HIS arm of salvation still and even during this time

 

[popeye]

An "overcomer" is identified in 1 John 5 as those who REMAIN in HIM and do not "go out" from HIM.
Nit by power or by might, but by HIS SPIRIT

In the times of trouble, it will be made manifest those who "go out" from HIM from those who "REMAIN IN HIM"

An overcomer,overcomes sin,temptation,and compromise. IOW,the flesh and dominion of self.

That is the dynamic of the martyr. the choice is;life and denying the faith vs death and testifying that they belong to the king.

There are three enemies of the faith the world,the flesh ,and the devil.
That is the realm that the overcomer,overcomes.

 

[miknik5]

An overcomer,overcomes sin,temptation,and compromise. IOW,the flesh and dominion of self.

That is the dynamic of the martyr. the choice is;life and denying the faith vs death and testifying that they belong to the king.

There are three enemies of the faith the world,the flesh ,and the devil.
That is the realm that the overcomer,overcomes.

Yes But HE prepares us by refining us so that our faith more precious than gold (though tried in the fire) will prove genuine and will rest in and on HIM in all seasons

our work of "REMAINING IN HIM" and not "going out from HIM"is more a passive work

as in be still and know that I am GOD

It is very easy to profess our faith when things are well and good
it is when we can't see where our feet are taking us and what seems before us anything but well and good that faith in HIM is made manifest.

 

[PlainWord]

This is what happens: a bird feast.


Which is why we are to have the RIGHT GARMENT for only those who have the RIGHT GARMENT can come to the Wedding feast of THE LAMB

Very good. That is exactly right. They will be burying the bodies for 7 months.

 

[PlainWord]

GOD, by holding back HIS Wrath extends HIS long arm of salvation to all men. He is able to mark and seal those who are purchased by HIS BLOOD. But HIS judgement, going backwards against the creation account is not fully allowed until GOD "lets go"


And even in all these "labor pains" man does not repent to come to HIM to be saved

The "sealing" in the forehead pertains to wisdom. That's one of the more obvious symbols in play. The ELECT cannot be fooled, just as Jesus tells us in Mat 24.

 

[miknik5]

The "sealing" in the forehead pertains to wisdom. That's one of the more obvious symbols in play. The ELECT cannot be fooled, just as Jesus tells us in Mat 24.

If you say so

 

[GaryA]

I was going to put the rest in, but my point was to show GaryA that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all take place in the future and are not spread out over 2000 years, beginning in 70 A.D.[/COLOR]

[TABLE="width: 500, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]the "opening" of seals 1-4[/TD]
[TD]=>[/TD]
[TD]past[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]the "opening" of seal 5[/TD]
[TD]=>[/TD]
[TD]near past OR present OR near future[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]the "opening" of seal 6[/TD]
[TD]=>[/TD]
[TD]future[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]the trumpets[/TD]
[TD]=>[/TD]
[TD]future[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]the vials[/TD]
[TD]=>[/TD]
[TD]future[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

But I'm sure that you are going to stick to your belief, just as I am going to stick to mine. We'll just have to see how everything plays out.

"Works for me..."

 

[RobbyEarl]

Isn't God's word amazing? The depth and unsearchable attributes of His word. But, we are told to just be ready. So complicated but yet so simple. Amen.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good evening GaryA,

The "opening" of the seals 1-4 = Past

Gary, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are meant to happen within close proximity of each other, like a woman having birth pain, which is how God is going to decimate the population of the earth.

At the opening of the 4th seal, Death and Hades are give power to kill a fourth of the earth's population, which based on 7 billion people would be approx. 1.7 billion fatalities. That has not yet taken place. These plagues of wrath are meant to be devastating and to be noticed. If you have the 4th seal happening in the past, then it went unnoticed! But when performed in close proximity, their purpose being to decimated the immediate population and to dismantle all human government, then together they will fulfill their purpose, which is as follows:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth” - Zeph.1:1-3

"For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

When Jesus said, "If those days had not been shorten, no one would survive," He was not just referring to Israel, but to the inhabitants of the entire earth. If the wrath of God and all that the Beast will be performing was allowed to go on any longer than the appointed time, no one on earth would be left alive. This fits with the prophecy of Zephaniah above.

The last seven years will be the fulfillment of the seventy sevens that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. And will also be the time in which God deals with the rest of the world, as demonstrated in Dan.2:31-45, where the statute represents all human government, with the Rock (Christ) that falls on the feet of that last ten-toed kingdom, representing the dismantling of all human government. These plagues of wrath are meant to take place in the last generation and not over a 2000 year period. It is the fulfillment of that last seven year period, the wrath of God, that is quickly coming. That said, the first seal, that rider on the white horse, has not yet been opened, but will be when that antichrist is revealed, for he is is that rider on the white horse.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If you say so

Hello miknik,

What PW is proclaiming above is a seventh day Adventist teaching. Instead of understanding that mark will be a literal device under the skin of the hand or forehead, they apply a spiritual meaning, so that that the forehead represents making a decision and the right hand represents performing an action. After applying that, to them the receiving the mark of the beast represents one making the decision to observe the Sabbath on Sunday. The problem with that, is that we already have people already being implanted with chips under the skin of the hand, with one of its functions being to make purchases.

The information regarding the mark is meant to be taken in the literal sense. That coming mark will replace card swiping and bank phone apps. to be able to perform electronic crediting and debiting, which is buying and selling.

 

[PlainWord]

Gary and I are close on our views. The big exception is he thinks the GT started back in AD 70 with the destruction of the Temple. I see the GT as future because the Abomination of Desolation (Dan 11) was not set up and the war described in Dan 11 does not seem to describe Titus plus Titus was from the West, not the North. I don't see Rome in Revelation at all.

But we agree to a large extent that the seals are already being opened. When I look at the figurative language in Revelation I see that the entire book is focused on 8 topics in both realms, spiritual and physical (heaven and earth).

The 8 main topics are:

God and His plan
DRAGON - Satan and his plan
WOMAN WHO GAVE BIRTH TO A SON - Israel (descendants of Jacob)
LAMPSTAND - the Church (Christianity the faith)
LIGHT/SPRINGS OF LIVING WATER - Christians (the people)
BABYLON - Islam (the faith)
SEA - Muslims (the people, descendants of Ishmael)
EARTH - Society (people in general)

Much of Revelation is written using figurative language and is not literal. Obviously there is conflict between the above list. The seals seem to be speaking of the physical world, things that can be seen while the trumpets are mostly spiritual at least through the first 5. Do I have them all figured out? No. But I do have a theory on most of them and I agree with Gary in large part that we are into Seal 4. I also think the seals and trumpets are related.

Here's what I think some of them mean:

1st Seal - WHITE HORSE - this is the rise of Christianity in the Middle East (its birthplace). It corresponds with Rev 11. The Church Age (in the middle east) as the dominant faith lasted 1,260 years (from Pentecost until the last of the Crusades which ended in 1,291 at Acre, Israel) White is good.

2nd Seal - RED HORSE - This is the rise of Islam from Muhammad through the Ottoman Empire. For 1,400 years they have been taking peace from the earth (other people/society). Ishmael was a fighter. As we are told in Gen 16: He (Ishmael) shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man. Not just Ishmael, but his descendants. This is where the term "beast" originates as used in Revelation to describe the Beast (Empire rooted in Islam) from the Sea. Clay and Iron don't mix. They never have, never will. The world cannot live with Islam and vice versa. Red is Sin/Wickedness.

3rd Seal - BLACK HORSE - This is less certain but I think it deals with Income Inequality on the earth. Rich getting richer, poor getting poorer. The people are exploited by a select few who control the planet. Now that we are in a global economy the fleecing of us becomes easier.

4th Seal - GREEN HORSE - Final Caliphate. Islam returns with a vengeance after a 79 year hiatus. The Great Tribulation is found within this seal. This horse kills by various means mentioned. They don't kill 1/4 of mankind, rather they have power over 1/4 of the earth to kill, which they are doing now.

5th Seal - Accumulation of all martyrs since Christ currently estimated at around 50-60 million and growing every year. Islam is responsible for the vast majority of these deaths, therefore God's wrath is really going to be focused on them.

1st Trumpet - Trees are angels (good or bad) or prominent men. Green grass are people.

2nd Trumpet - The "great mountain burning with fire" can only be ISLAM as it ties perfectly to Jer 51. The Sea are descendants of Ishmael so this is discussing the converting of them to Islam.

3rd Trumpet - I believe this is the poisoning of the Church with false doctrine that led many away from the faith.

4th Trumpet - I believe this is the falling away of the Church spoken of by Paul which happens prior to the revelation of the Man of Sin. Once Christianity is reduced by 1/3, Islam will be the world's largest religion and they will take advantage of that just like they have done throughout history oppressing and killing the minority faiths.

Got to run for now...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Do you think there is only ONE HOUSE and that CHRIST came to bring together under ONE....one people marked as belonging to GOD?

Yes, but I don't believe that everyone will belong to the church. Sometime prior to the 1st seal being opened, the Lord will gather the church, bringing the church period to an end. During the time of God's wrath there will be the woman/Israel who will be cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years, they are not apart of the church. There will also be the 144,000 who come out from the twelve tribes of Israel who will be sealed during the time of God's wrath and though highly regarded, they are also not apart of the church. Then there will the great tribulation saints who will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath and they also are not apart of the church and are never referred to as such.

All that said, I believe that the church, which is a specific group, ends when the Lord gathers them, to raise the dead and change the living and take them all back to the Father's house. All of those on earth afterwards who come to Christ will belong to Him as well, but do not belong to the church. This is just my observance. If you will notice, from Rev.1 thru 3 all believers are referred to as the church and never as saint. From Rev.4 onward, beginning at 5:8, all believers are referred to as saints and never as the church. It is the exact opposite from Rev.1 thru 3. Neither is the woman/Israel ever referred to as the church. So regarding this, you are free to come to your own conclusion. I'm just stating the scriptural facts.

 

[PlainWord]

Hello miknik,

What PW is proclaiming above is a seventh day Adventist teaching. Instead of understanding that mark will be a literal device under the skin of the hand or forehead, they apply a spiritual meaning, so that that the forehead represents making a decision and the right hand represents performing an action. After applying that, to them the receiving the mark of the beast represents one making the decision to observe the Sabbath on Sunday. The problem with that, is that we already have people already being implanted with chips under the skin of the hand, with one of its functions being to make purchases.

The information regarding the mark is meant to be taken in the literal sense. That coming mark will replace card swiping and bank phone apps. to be able to perform electronic crediting and debiting, which is buying and selling.

What are you talking about? I am not a 7 day Adventist. If they agree with me concerning the "mark" then they at least got something right.

I can tell you with 100% certainty, that the mark is not a computer chip under the skin. If you were a store clerk selling something to someone, do you need to swipe your own hand each time? That makes no sense because businesses have business accounts and that account would never be tied to numerous employees. So the computer chip idea could only work for buyers and not sellers. Besides as I've shown you 100 times, but you refuse to see, having the so called "mark" is only one of the three options for "buying or selling." How would "having the name" or "number of the name" work if you had to have a chip?

Oops, back to the drawing board on that one.

 

[CharlieGrown]

BABYLON - Islam (the faith)

How do you see Islam is Babylon? Just curious, never heard that view before.

 

[GaryA]

Gary, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are meant to happen within close proximity of each other, ...

I believe the seals to be spread out over several centuries, the trumpets over several months ( but not less than 3.5 years ), and the vials over several days ( or, possibly, running into weeks ).

 

[PlainWord]

How do you see Islam is Babylon? Just curious, never heard that view before.

ISLAM fits every single clue (62 of them) given in Revelation. No other false religion fits them all.

Besides that, Islam is linked to Abraham through Ishmael and the forefathers of Islam have been opposing Israel since then. Esau, who gave up his birth right (to be the Father of God's People) over a meal, and he married Ishmael's daughter.

Islam beheads and kills the prophets and servants of God. ISLAM has killed an estimated 50 million Christians since Muhammad. No other false religion has persecuted Christianity more, in fact no other even comes close.

ISLAMIC countries completely surround Israel. It will be Islamic countries (Persia, Libya, Etheopia), led by Gog which attack Israel in the last days according to Eze 38-39. ISLAM kills those who refuse to convert (in places they control). ISLAM makes up 1/4 of the world's population as we see at the 4th seal. Islam kills by the various means mentioned.

Jihadist thinks they go to Paradise and receive 72 virgins when they die in a terrorist act like a suicide bomb. But the Bible tells us instead that Death and Hades follow them. ISLAM has a false prophet and a false god. ISLAM is the biggest false religion on the planet. ISLAM hates Jews and Christians alike. They call Israel, "the Little Satan" and America "the Big Satan" and chant "DEATH" to us both.

John did not recognize the Harlot when he saw her because ISLAM was still some 500+ years in his future. But for us, it fits every clue right down to throwing dust upon one's head to mourn as they do when their holy city, Mecca gets nuked. ISLAM has kings and over 50 countries with a majority Muslim population. ISLAM has two factions within it (Sunni and Shia) that hate each other and are bent on destroying each other. ISLAM has a radical faction that hates the moderate faction and the radicals are destroying their own religion, just as we are told they will.

ISLAM is supported by a "Beast" empire. The Ottoman Empire replaced the Eastern Roman Empire in 1299 in Constantinople (Istanbul) becoming the 7th head of the successions of beast empires. This head was mortally wounded in 1922 but will be healed and is being healed right now. They will eventually unite under one leader and attack Israel (the Great Tribulation). No other religion has it as a goal to destroy Israel.

The Qur'an instructs them to kill by beheading and we see beheaded souls in Rev 20. I can go on if you need me to?

 

[Quasar92]

I believe the seals to be spread out over several centuries, the trumpets over several months ( but not less than 3.5 years ), and the vials over several days ( or, possibly, running into weeks ).

The seven seals, seven trumpet and seven bowl/vials judgments, contained in the book of Revelation, chapters 6 through 19, all take place within a seven year period of time. It is Jesus final amplification of the seven year tribulation, that begins with Dan.9:27, that Jesus amplifies in His Olivet discourse in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk,21, as well as Rev.6.

Hope this helps.


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

The seven seals, seven trumpet and seven bowl/vials judgments, contained in the book of Revelation, chapters 6 through 19, all take place within a seven year period of time. It is Jesus final amplification of the seven year tribulation, that begins with Dan.9:27, that Jesus amplifies in His Olivet discourse in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk,21, as well as Rev.6.

Hope this helps.


Quasar92

Morning Quasar92,

I have told GaryA the same. As I am sure you know, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is what God is going to use to carry out his wrath. Others like to slice and dice the seals, making it one part the wrath man and the other the wrath of God. But the fact is that, Jesus is the One breaking the seals and is therefore is the One who is initiating His wrath.

You are correct in that these plagues of wrath take place within that last seven years, as they are meant to take place in a short period of time and not over a 2000 year span. The other issue that, He has Jesus as the One who is the "He" of Dan.9:27, which cannot be, because it would meant that Jesus would also be the One setting up the abomination.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are meant to decimate the population of the earth and to dismantle all human government, which will be the fulfillment of Zeph.1:1-3, Isa.13:12 and Dan.2:31-45, as well as other prophesies.

 

[PlainWord]

Morning Quasar92,

I have told GaryA the same. As I am sure you know, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is what God is going to use to carry out his wrath. Others like to slice and dice the seals, making it one part the wrath man and the other the wrath of God. But the fact is that, Jesus is the One breaking the seals and is therefore is the One who is initiating His wrath.

You are correct in that these plagues of wrath take place within that last seven years, as they are meant to take place in a short period of time and not over a 2000 year span. The other issue that, He has Jesus as the One who is the "He" of Dan.9:27, which cannot be, because it would meant that Jesus would also be the One setting up the abomination.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are meant to decimate the population of the earth and to dismantle all human government, which will be the fulfillment of Zeph.1:1-3, Isa.13:12 and Dan.2:31-45, as well as other prophesies.

It might help if you, Popeye and Quasar actually understood what the seals, trumps and bowls represent, then you wouldn't reach such false conclusions.