The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[GWH]

Why ask others to help you understand Greek, learn it yourself so you don't have to be a parrot and repeat what others say. It will take some time, but you will be able to become a serious Bible student and not be dependent on others to teach you. I have translated most of the epistle to the Ephesians, I would be glad to send you part of it to give you a feel for what paraphrasing/translation is all about.

Maybe you would like to join the study of Ephesians on the Systematic Bible Study thread?

 

[Lamar]

I can only be as clear as long as you are willing to look in the direction from which I'm speaking.

Did you really think this sentence through?

People "can only" understand you if they "are willing to look in" from your direction?

Is English not your first language? If so I do understand, if not you should express yourself in a manner that does not force the reader into your subjective reality.

 

[Mem]

Did you really think this sentence through?

People "can only" understand you if they "are willing to look in" from your direction?

Is English not your first language? If so I do understand, if not you should express yourself in a manner that does not force the reader into your subjective reality.

I am what I am, but there's nothing that requires that you have to "exist" within my reality, by any force, but I do realize that things such as empathy are of grace. I'm giving up that you will be able to understand me. Afterall, you feel the wind but do not know from where it comes or to where it is going.

 

[Lamar]

I am what I am, but there's nothing that requires that you have to "exist" within my reality, by any force, but I do realize that things such as empathy are of grace. I'm giving up that you will be able to understand me. Afterall, you feel the wind but do not know from where it comes or to where it is going.

Or how about you simply.

Come down from your high horse and speak with the common folk.

 

[Mem]

Or how about you simply.

Come down from your high horse and speak with the common folk.

I'm no more common than a priceless ruby, no thank you.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

If you can read Greek why don't you read the book of Acts and take note of each Present Tense verb to see if what Dr. Bechtle says is true. For a little older Greek, read Isaiah in the LXX.

So rather than present your answer on the subject, you send me away with the assignment to read the entire Book of Acts focusing on each and every instance of the Present Tense? Then you insist that I prove what I said by citing every instance of the present tense from the LXX translation of Isaiah? No this is an unequal division of labor in this debate. If you want to refer to those sources, yourself, feel free but don't assign me to do it unless you are pointing to something specific.

Meanwhile here is another source for you to look at:
Ενεστώτας (Enestótas) – “Present” The Greek present tense indicates a continuing action, something that happens continuously or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening
(https://www.greekpod101.com/blog/2021/07/08/greek-tenses/#1)

 

[Lamar]

I'm no more common than a priceless ruby, no thank you.

As I suspected.

 

[EddieM]

So rather than present your answer on the subject, you send me away with the assignment to read the entire Book of Acts focusing on each and every instance of the Present Tense? Then you insist that I prove what I said by citing every instance of the present tense from the LXX translation of Isaiah? No this is an unequal division of labor in this debate. If you want to refer to those sources, yourself, feel free but don't assign me to do it unless you are pointing to something specific.

Meanwhile here is another source for you to look at:
Ενεστώτας (Enestótas) – “Present” The Greek present tense indicates a continuing action, something that happens continuously or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening
(https://www.greekpod101.com/blog/2021/07/08/greek-tenses/#1)

The Greek present tense indicates a continuing action, something that happens continuously or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening.

If you are not lazy, you should read the two books i recommended (in Greek). That way you will not have to look up someone on the internet and hope they are a scholar. What problem do you have with reading the two books in Greek? Are you basing your information by the English translation? If so, that would be the reason you are intimidated to read Acts and Isaiah. If you don't know Greek, then will have to take the writings of other men.

 

[mailmandan]

It's an analogy. In other words, we must accept God on His terms. We must obey God in order to receive His grace. There is no work in properly accepting God's grace.

How much obedience does it take? Romans 4:4 -
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Claiming God's grace without obeying Him is mocking His will.

We are justified by faith, and we have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1-2) We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) So, how much obedience must we accomplish and "add" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

And this is what you are doing.

Galatians 6:7
New International Version
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sows to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Only believers sow to the Spirit and from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

You are sowing a false gospel. A gospel without obedience.

Seeking salvation by works is not obedience and is a false gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Imperfect obedience cannot save you. (Romans 3:23) Only Jesus can save you. (Romans 6:23)

 

[mailmandan]

A uncashed check is a worthless check. Just as faith without works is worthless.

James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

We may debate what works are needed but not the need for works.

You clearly teach salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You put the cart before the horse.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

 

[BillG]

It's an analogy. In other words, we must accept God on His terms. We must obey God in order to receive His grace. There is no work in properly accepting God's grace.

God extended his grace to us before we obeyed him.

 

[mailmandan]

You would be surprised how many on this forum believe that.
They are oness pentacostals, you can only have your sins forgiven if you are baptised in the name of Jesus only.

Here is an interesting article that refutes the oneness Pentecostal teaching on being baptized in Jesus' name only for salvation.

Must baptism be done "in Jesus' name"? | carm.org

 

[DavidLamb]

It's an analogy. In other words, we must accept God on His terms. We must obey God in order to receive His grace. There is no work in properly accepting God's grace.

Claiming God's grace without obeying Him is mocking His will.

And this is what you are doing.

Galatians 6:7
New International Version
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

You are sowing a false gospel. A gospel without obedience.

I agree that once we are saved, we must walk in obedience:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

However, grace is God's undeserved favour. He doesn't bestow His grace as a result of our obedience:

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),” (Eph 2:4-5 NKJV)

 

[Jimbone]

You clearly teach salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You put the cart before the horse.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

I think it honestly boils down to how we look at the works we do, I believe those that teach works are what we have to do to stay saved are wrong plain and simple. We don't do works FOR salvation, but we do work BECAUSE of salvation. He saves us to do works; He empowers us to do works in His name. He gets the glory for any of the work we do in His name by His power. It just depends on who you think is the source of these good works and who gets the glory for them in your heart.

Many people here teach that we have to work to stay saved, I see it as, we WILL work because He saved us. They teach a works based cosmic probation that puts the full weight of our salvation squarely on our shoulders and makes it 100% dependent on us. This is not true and not the truth, it's in fact the opposite of what Jesus tells us it is.

When we are born-again God is literally resurrecting our dead spirit and reconciling it to Himself, making us spiritually alive for the first time in our lives. This connects us to God for real, in real life, and changes us from the inside out. It changes our whole perception, our desires and priorities, our habits, it exposes sin in our lives that we never even thought of as sinful and brings us into His kingdom. Now we KNOW the truth and by His power and Spirit go forth to proclaim His glory and salvation to the world, we by His power go forth and do works, nothing we can boast in ourselves in, but that we point to Jesus and say "He gets the glory, He is the only reason I'd do any of these things. Any good you see in me or "good" see me do, that's Jesus 100%"

This is the divide, who gets the glory and credit for these works? Those who seem to ignore the spirit side tend to teach we "better" obey good enough and those who teach all glory to God say He is the reason for any work I do.