The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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I was in unbelief in the way that I was a false convert and thought I was a Christian. I responded to an alter call, repeated the prayer with "all my heart", and was declared saved by my pastor. Even went and got baptized after for good measure and to obey. For 5 or so years thought I was a Christian, went to church, did everything I thought Christians did. Then true trial hit me, I was in a motorcycle wreak that took all function from my right, and dominate, arm. This sent me on a downward spiral and wanting to die. I thought about killing myself at least once every 5 minutes or so for 2 solid years and couldn't help it. I thought I knew God and was a Christian, but it wasn't helping at all. I got to the point I wanted nothing but to die, have no feeling at all in my right arm so could easily cut my wrist without even having o feel the bite of the blade, it was a easy way out. I could justify doing it in every way, but just could not leave my 2 sons in life with "my dad killed himself". So I was stuck.
After shouldering these burdens for this long I no longer thought a God existed. I didn't get mad at Him or "denounce" Him or anything, just knew He didn't help, if He was real. When I hit my knees, when He brought me to my knees, I did not believe in Him anymore, I hit my knees in defeat. I did not call His name or say I'm ready now. I hit my knees crying "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore. World you win and I quit!".
I picked my pathetic weeping self, off the floor, and went to bed. The next day I got up and did my normal thing and went to work.
It hit me at lunch that day harder that a pallet of bricks, "I haven't thought about killing myself at all today!!!!!!"
It was right then and there that I KNEW 2 things, whatever this was it was God, and that Jesus was His Son. at the time I had no clue what was going on, but I had a new hunger for His word and He sent me right to John. By the time I read chapter 3 I had to go out to the receptionist, she was a Christian as well, and told her "I think I was born again", and was.
The first part of your comment, "How were you in unbelief when he saved you? ", I can appreciate and just answered.
However this, "If unbelief then you were not saved? ", is you telling me about my salvation. You don't get to do that. Yes I testify 100% in His name that when He saved me I did NOT believe, if I ever really did before. I don't think I did even though I liked the "idea" of it. I thought it was a good message and way to live. But He saved me once I saw the truth that my way was garbage and led to death.
After shouldering these burdens for this long I no longer thought a God existed. I didn't get mad at Him or "denounce" Him or anything, just knew He didn't help, if He was real. When I hit my knees, when He brought me to my knees, I did not believe in Him anymore, I hit my knees in defeat. I did not call His name or say I'm ready now. I hit my knees crying "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore. World you win and I quit!".
I picked my pathetic weeping self, off the floor, and went to bed. The next day I got up and did my normal thing and went to work.
It hit me at lunch that day harder that a pallet of bricks, "I haven't thought about killing myself at all today!!!!!!"
It was right then and there that I KNEW 2 things, whatever this was it was God, and that Jesus was His Son. at the time I had no clue what was going on, but I had a new hunger for His word and He sent me right to John. By the time I read chapter 3 I had to go out to the receptionist, she was a Christian as well, and told her "I think I was born again", and was.
The first part of your comment, "How were you in unbelief when he saved you? ", I can appreciate and just answered.
However this, "If unbelief then you were not saved? ", is you telling me about my salvation. You don't get to do that. Yes I testify 100% in His name that when He saved me I did NOT believe, if I ever really did before. I don't think I did even though I liked the "idea" of it. I thought it was a good message and way to live. But He saved me once I saw the truth that my way was garbage and led to death.
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However this, "If unbelief then you were not saved? ", is you telling me about my salvation. You don't get to do that. Yes I testify 100% in His name that when He saved me I did NOT believe, if I ever really did before. I don't think I did even though I liked the "idea" of it. I thought it was a good message and way to live. But He saved me once I saw the truth that my way was garbage and led to death.
I don’t feel I was telling you about your salvation, I was asking you a question, that’s all.
I don’t feel I was telling you about your salvation, I was asking you a question, that’s all.
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Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Revealed presently now today, after Christ was risen and Pentecost happened, Father here in Spirit and Truth started the revealing of the mysteries no one could ever see, until revealed by Father using Paul to reveal it, and many others, who choose Faith, Belief to not quit, even if go through troubles too.
the only thing left after the willing death of Son Jesus is:
To choose to believe God Father of Son as risen or not. Not to make any of my own thought(s) the way, or the truth, I am in need for Christ the Messiah as risen to lead me in Father's love and mercy truth to all, not a few All.
The only sin left, that is not a sin at first birth of flesh, is to believe God or not consciously One has to see it, to either believe it or not, make that free choice.
If not believe God in risen Son for them, then Unbelief becomes as sin unto Death for sure. It is the sin of death, to consciously choose "Unbelief" to God Father of risen Son for us all, is what I see and as well I see not to accuse or excuse anyone ever again as religion does well on its own in that one
God loves us all y'all, otherwise Son would have not gone to that cross willingly, you think?
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Revealed presently now today, after Christ was risen and Pentecost happened, Father here in Spirit and Truth started the revealing of the mysteries no one could ever see, until revealed by Father using Paul to reveal it, and many others, who choose Faith, Belief to not quit, even if go through troubles too.
the only thing left after the willing death of Son Jesus is:
To choose to believe God Father of Son as risen or not. Not to make any of my own thought(s) the way, or the truth, I am in need for Christ the Messiah as risen to lead me in Father's love and mercy truth to all, not a few All.
The only sin left, that is not a sin at first birth of flesh, is to believe God or not consciously One has to see it, to either believe it or not, make that free choice.
If not believe God in risen Son for them, then Unbelief becomes as sin unto Death for sure. It is the sin of death, to consciously choose "Unbelief" to God Father of risen Son for us all, is what I see and as well I see not to accuse or excuse anyone ever again as religion does well on its own in that one
God loves us all y'all, otherwise Son would have not gone to that cross willingly, you think?
The reformers do not agree with your version of OSAS one bit. For one, Luther didn't even believe in OSAS, he believed one could fall away from the faith. The 'reformed' a.k.a calvinists believe in OSAS but they dont neglect repentance and believe God grants it to the elect.
Not a single reformed preacher held to this modern view of OSAS. This horse has been beat to death many times, but I will point out one last time, the works referred to in the letters of Paul are the works of the law of Moses. Not baptism, not repentance, not loving God or loving your neighbor, but specifically circumcision, ceremonial laws of the OT that the pharisees wanted the new converts to keep. Acts 15 details this controversy.
Not a single reformed preacher held to this modern view of OSAS. This horse has been beat to death many times, but I will point out one last time, the works referred to in the letters of Paul are the works of the law of Moses. Not baptism, not repentance, not loving God or loving your neighbor, but specifically circumcision, ceremonial laws of the OT that the pharisees wanted the new converts to keep. Acts 15 details this controversy.
Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (ACTS 18:4)!
“He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God,
and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (ACTS 28:23b)
“Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. (ACTS 28:24)
They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement:
The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving,
for this people’s heart has become calloused.” (ACTS 28:25-27a, cf. 2TM 3:7)
“He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God,
and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (ACTS 28:23b)
“Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. (ACTS 28:24)
They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement:
The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving,
for this people’s heart has become calloused.” (ACTS 28:25-27a, cf. 2TM 3:7)
Regarding MT 18:2-9: Yes, faith and trust are better answers pertaining to young children (v.3-4) who believe in Jesus, because "humble" means teachable, and innocence is a better answer pertaining to children who are caused to sin, because being guilty of "sin" is the opposite of innocence. We were looking at different parts of the same elephant. (both-and :^)
Truth is not determined by consensus. The most profound truths are the ones Satan works against.
For how long were the people fed lies by the Catholic Church?
Luther understood a lot but not all, to the point where he called the Book of James an "epistle made of straw."
Calvin was all over the map, and given his character and how dealt with the people in Geneva, even with the allowance of being man of his time, I cannot attach much value to his works.
Believe as you will, ultimately your deny yourself, I firmly believe God blesses those who take a stand where He takes a stand.
Justified is justified and His gifts are irrevocable.
Eph.1:13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Heb.12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth:
Heb.12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
For how long were the people fed lies by the Catholic Church?
Luther understood a lot but not all, to the point where he called the Book of James an "epistle made of straw."
Calvin was all over the map, and given his character and how dealt with the people in Geneva, even with the allowance of being man of his time, I cannot attach much value to his works.
Believe as you will, ultimately your deny yourself, I firmly believe God blesses those who take a stand where He takes a stand.
Justified is justified and His gifts are irrevocable.
Eph.1:13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Heb.12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth:
Heb.12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
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Jesus describes this situation in the parable of the soils....(a sower went out to sow seed)
Rocky, hard path...nada
Shallow soil....nada
Good soil but weeds....nada
Good soil, weed free....big crop.
The parable describes three soil conditions that believe but only ONE OF THREE believers does anything with the faith that they hold.
At best that means only a third of believers are fruit producing believers. That's kinda bad odds for most people.
I'm not the judge of the souls of people....God is. To claim someone is or is not going to enter Heaven? Kinda scary ground to stand upon. We do NOT touch what is not ours to handle. All kinds of death was handed out to people who did those sorts of things with Temple or Tabernacle items.
Just saying....I'm not one to judge. I'm too scared to try.
Rocky, hard path...nada
Shallow soil....nada
Good soil but weeds....nada
Good soil, weed free....big crop.
The parable describes three soil conditions that believe but only ONE OF THREE believers does anything with the faith that they hold.
At best that means only a third of believers are fruit producing believers. That's kinda bad odds for most people.
I'm not the judge of the souls of people....God is. To claim someone is or is not going to enter Heaven? Kinda scary ground to stand upon. We do NOT touch what is not ours to handle. All kinds of death was handed out to people who did those sorts of things with Temple or Tabernacle items.
Just saying....I'm not one to judge. I'm too scared to try.
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Where false assurance exist, true assurance cannot.
Claiming to be among the saved (regardless of how sincere) is one thing.
Knowing the non-blotted individuals named in the Book of Life is for God alone to know.
In other words:
Romans 8:16-17
New International Version
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
claiming to be among the our and we pronouns holds no weight without knowing whether the ifs apply to you.
Claiming to be among the saved (regardless of how sincere) is one thing.
Knowing the non-blotted individuals named in the Book of Life is for God alone to know.
In other words:
Romans 8:16-17
New International Version
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
claiming to be among the our and we pronouns holds no weight without knowing whether the ifs apply to you.
Apply the never saved phrase to yourself. Would anyone say that about themselves or are they the exception to the rule? Would anyone say that about your wife, kids, what about your preacher or elder? Obviously people thought and believed they were, otherwise they would never have considered them saved, and they’d never been an elder or preacher, so how does anyone know who is saved in that line of thinking? They don’t. What else can people say besides they were never saved? Instead of wanting to believe the possibility that a Christian can depart, they would rather say they were never saved, all while saying they were always saved!!!
You cannot depart from the faith, but if you do, you were never IN the faith to be able to depart!
Someone who is a faithful Christian for decades ends up becoming someone was NEVER a faithful Christian for decades, even though they had the SAME biblical EVIDENCE of being a faithful Christian for decades has the others!
How would anyone know who is “truly saved” in that belief? They don’t!
You can’t lose it, but if you walk away you never had it to lose it?
OSAS is a walking contradiction!!
You cannot depart from the faith, but if you do, you were never IN the faith to be able to depart!
Someone who is a faithful Christian for decades ends up becoming someone was NEVER a faithful Christian for decades, even though they had the SAME biblical EVIDENCE of being a faithful Christian for decades has the others!
How would anyone know who is “truly saved” in that belief? They don’t!
You can’t lose it, but if you walk away you never had it to lose it?
OSAS is a walking contradiction!!
Matthew 7:22-23
22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye workers of iniquity.
Many will stand before the Lord with a false assurance of salvation.
I pray you nor anyone else have a false assurance.
Jesus saves a person without any help. If he is able to save you he is able to keep you with no help.
To say a person can lose their salvation or walk away is to say Jesus can not keep those he saves.
I guess my Lord and savior is stronger than yours.
22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye workers of iniquity.
Many will stand before the Lord with a false assurance of salvation.
I pray you nor anyone else have a false assurance.
Jesus saves a person without any help. If he is able to save you he is able to keep you with no help.
To say a person can lose their salvation or walk away is to say Jesus can not keep those he saves.
I guess my Lord and savior is stronger than yours.
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Your grass is 4" tall and it needs to be mowed. If (AND IT IS)your grass is more than 3" tall you need to mow it.
Do you apply to the "if?"
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Do you apply to the "if?"
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
It seems like a lot of confusion is arguing against two kinds of people. Those who were never saved according to the Bible, and those who were saved according to the Bible, who fell away, departed, etc etc.
That’s why people can usually never reach an agreement, is because they argue over two different things.
“I never knew you” could equal “I never knew this version of you”. In other words, you have become a different person who stopped listening and obeying. You stopped doing the will of the Father.
I knew the faithful version of you, but never knew the rebellious side of the individual who they have become. I never knew you, depart from me.
That’s why people can usually never reach an agreement, is because they argue over two different things.
“I never knew you” could equal “I never knew this version of you”. In other words, you have become a different person who stopped listening and obeying. You stopped doing the will of the Father.
I knew the faithful version of you, but never knew the rebellious side of the individual who they have become. I never knew you, depart from me.
That is not necessarily true, though. I studied for a time in a group which was headed by an ordained minister who lied to
get ordained, as she considered herself an agnostic, and there are similar cases as well... have you not heard of Margaret
Ann "Gretta" Vosper, who is an ordained minister of the United Church of Canada, and is a self-professed atheist? And
about the woman I knew personally: she was completely devoted to studying God's revealed written Word.
get ordained, as she considered herself an agnostic, and there are similar cases as well... have you not heard of Margaret
Ann "Gretta" Vosper, who is an ordained minister of the United Church of Canada, and is a self-professed atheist? And
about the woman I knew personally: she was completely devoted to studying God's revealed written Word.
The whole “you were never truly saved” when someone did get saved according to the Bible is no different than an individual who quits being a police officer. They will cite the very same things of their life when they were considered a police officer of those who currently are. Apply the same logic to that. Person A says Person B was never truly a police officer because they quit. Someone asks Person A what led them to believing Person B was a police officer. They will say Person B had all the traits. Passed the academy, had a badge, making arrests, etc etc..but they only had the appearance of one…but this is the very same evidence that Person A has.
So, by Person A’s reasoning, the traits, passing the academy, having a badge, making arrests, they themselves would also just be having an appearance of being a police officer, but never being a police officer. It’s stupid when you actually think it through, but that is exactly what they are saying when they say “Person B was never truly saved”. When applied to themselves, they were never saved either.
The “never saved” argument when concerning someone who did get saved according to the Bible makes about as much sense as saying if a soldier departs from the army then they were never a soldier in the army or never had served. Would anyone say someone was NEVER a soldier in the first place if he went rogue and started killing his own?
So, by Person A’s reasoning, the traits, passing the academy, having a badge, making arrests, they themselves would also just be having an appearance of being a police officer, but never being a police officer. It’s stupid when you actually think it through, but that is exactly what they are saying when they say “Person B was never truly saved”. When applied to themselves, they were never saved either.
The “never saved” argument when concerning someone who did get saved according to the Bible makes about as much sense as saying if a soldier departs from the army then they were never a soldier in the army or never had served. Would anyone say someone was NEVER a soldier in the first place if he went rogue and started killing his own?