The Life of Jesus' from Evidence Outside our Gospels

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#21
Right about that, though if KISS was actually practiced always, we wouldn’t have advanced electronics and software. Like DOS it’s pretty simple computer language but even that needed to grow.

I think there’s a bible verse that says, let’s move forward beyond the rudimentary teachings., there seems room to grow.
What I found out teaching, installing, and repairing the telemetry systems that EMR Telemetry sold is that KISS was the method too many engineers ignored. That complicated the ability to quickly solve the problems. I did this on the hardware and software. One software engineer made his software deliberately difficult to understand. Another software engineer told me this after asking him for help to understand his software. That cost the company many extra hours of labor for everyone who worked on it.
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
#22
What I found out teaching, installing, and repairing the telemetry systems that EMR Telemetry sold is that KISS was the method too many engineers ignored. That complicated the ability to quickly solve the problems. I did this on the hardware and software. One software engineer made his software deliberately difficult to understand. Another software engineer told me this after asking him for help to understand his software. That cost the company many extra hours of labor for everyone who worked on it.
It happens sometimes not eveyone is going to agree, nothing is perfect in a systematic society.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#23
Some say the gardener at the tomb site removed the body to discourage sightseers from stepping on his lettuce (Tertullian--208 AD).
not sure whether Tertullian is 100% joking here, in mocking the surprise that the unbelievers will come to, or if he's referencing an actual conspiracy theory that had been spread - but here is where that is mentioned, in De Spectaculus, ch. 30
What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them! Poets also, trembling not before the judgment-seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more dissolute in the dissolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer, all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows; unless even then I shall not care to attend to such ministers of sin, in my eager wish rather to fix a gaze insatiable on those whose fury vented itself against the Lord. This, I shall say, this is that carpenter's or hireling's son, that Sabbath-breaker, that Samaritan and devil-possessed! This is He whom you purchased from Judas! This is He whom you struck with reed and fist, whom you contemptuously spat upon, to whom you gave gall and vinegar to drink! This is He whom His disciples secretly stole away, that it might be said He had risen again, or the gardener abstracted, that his lettuces might come to no harm from the crowds of visitants! What quæstor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favour of seeing and exulting in such things as these? And yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination. But what are the things which eye has not seen, ear has not heard, and which have not so much as dimly dawned upon the human heart? Whatever they are, they are nobler, I believe, than circus, and both theatres, and every race-course.

it might be mentioned, how stupid a gardener would have been to do this -- considering how many visitors by comparison the empty tomb of the risen Lord would have! ~ 2 million per year, nowadays, to the church of the holy seplechure?

at any rate - Tertullian clearly believed in the risen Christ
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#24
It happens sometimes not eveyone is going to agree, nothing is perfect in a systematic society.
Only the fools love to complicate things. The problem is there are those who love to complicate things.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
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#25
Every reader should check out the wonderful map hat KnowMe pasted on post #14. The map's location of "Bethany beyond the Jordan" (John 1:28) is accurate according to my research. Notice 3 details about this location:
(1) It is near "Aenpn near Salim." (John 3:23),, which seems to have served as John the Baptist's headquarters. The 5 springs at Aenon were a rare source of drinking water, unlike the muddy Jordan. John walked back and forth to Bethany to preach and baptize.
(2) It is near Pella, the city to which the Jerusalem church fled in the early 60s AD when Roman legions were closing in on Jerusalem. Pella is a Decapolis city, where Jesus' ministry received its most positive reception.
(3) It is also close to Jesus' alleged "hideout" described in the posted article.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,989
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#26
Only the fools love to complicate things. The problem is there are those who love to complicate things.
oi?

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity?
and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
(Proverbs 1:22)
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
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#27
oi?

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity?
and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
(Proverbs 1:22)
Only fools love it complicated. Are you a fool? There is a difference between keeping it simple and over complicating it. The Japanese in WWII went with complicated battle plans and lost big time. They forgot any battle plan never stays the same after contact with the enemy.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Anaheim, Cali.
#28
Only fools love it complicated. Are you a fool? There is a difference between keeping it simple and over complicating it. The Japanese in WWII went with complicated battle plans and lost big time. They forgot any battle plan never stays the same after contact with the enemy.
Trusting in the salvation of a divine wind was a bad idea too.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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#30
Now you are putting down the Japanese suicide fighter pilots. Shame shame shame!

LOL
Actually not. what I was referring to was a battle they had with Chinese who came by sea but some kind of Typhoon sprang up and the Chinese retreated. The Japanese gave credit to the god or gods of Mt. Fuji and believed a divine wind intervened. It became part of their mythology of why they could not be defeated on their home Island. Uh, bad idea! (History channel)
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#31
(1) Atheist Morton Smith is a genuine scholar. In his unique book, "Jesus the Magician," he reconstructs the version of Jesus' life as told by His Jewish detractors. I have summarized his findings in the paragraph below. The main source is the Platonist Celsus, who interviewed Jewish leaders to get their version of Jesus' life. Some of what they share can be independently corroborated by earlier sources traceable to the first century. I have cited other sources in parentheses for certain negative Jewish traditions about Jesus.

Jesus is the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier named Panthera and a spinner woman (Rabbi Eliezer--70 AD). Her husband disowned her for her adultery and Jesus was born while she was on the run. He got a job in Egypt as a laborer and took the opportunity to become an adept in magic there. Jesus even had himself tattooed with magical spells (Celsus--170 AD--also responsible for the ensuing claims). Returning to Galilee Jesus hung out with sailors of the worst sort, and wandered from place to place, making his living shamefully as a beggar. He recruited 10 (not 12) disciples and taught them to indulge in secret orgies in defiance of the Law of Moses. He persuaded the masses that he was the Messiah by his miracles, which were either demonically powered or nothing more than magically induced hallucinations. His cures were not real and did not last (Quadratus--100-125 AD). Even his own family rejected his claims. He was tried and executed by Pilate for sedition and the practice of magic. His disciples stole his body and then claimed that they saw him after he rose from the dead. Some say the gardener at the tomb site removed the body to discourage sightseers from stepping on his lettuce (Tertullian--208 AD). But the false claim that he rose from the dead has gained him a huge following.
That Myth was first created,

"
Origen, Contra Celsum 1.32 (248 CE)

But let us now return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that “when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera;” and let us see whether those who have blindly concocted these fables about the adultery of the Virgin with Panthera, and her rejection by the carpenter, did not invent these stories to overturn His miraculous conception by the Holy Ghost: for they could have falsified the history in a different manner, on account of its extremely miraculous character, and not have admitted, as it were against their will, that Jesus was born of no ordinary human marriage. It was to be expected, indeed, that those who would not believe the miraculous birth of Jesus would invent some falsehood. And their not doing this in a credible manner, but (their) preserving the fact that it was not by Joseph that the Virgin conceived Jesus, rendered the falsehood very palpable to those who can understand and detect such inventions. Is it at all agreeable to reason, that he who dared to do so much for the human race, in order that, as far as in him lay, all the Greeks and Barbarians, who were looking for divine condemnation, might depart from evil, and regulate their entire conduct in a manner pleasing to the Creator of the world, should not have had a miraculous birth, but one the vilest and most disgraceful of all? And I will ask of them as Greeks, and particularly of Celsus, who either holds or not the sentiments of Plato, and at any rate quotes them, whether He who sends souls down into the bodies of men, degraded Him who was to dare such mighty acts, and to teach so many men, and to reform so many from the mass of wickedness in the world, to a birth more disgraceful than any other, and did not rather introduce Him into the world through a lawful marriage? Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions? It is probable, therefore, that this soul also, which conferred more benefit by its residence in the flesh than that of many men (to avoid prejudice, I do not say “all”), stood in need of a body not only superior to others, but invested with all excellent qualities.

Translated by Frederick Crombie.
"
It was later added to the Talmud 500 year later,

"
Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 104b (c. 500 CE)
It is taught that Rabbi Eliezer said to the Wise, “Did not Ben Stada bring spells from Egypt in a cut in his flesh?” They said to him, “He was a fool, and they do not bring evidence from a fool.” Ben Stada is Ben Pantera. Rabbi Hisda [d. 309] said, “The husband was Stada, the lover was Pantera.” The husband was [actually] Pappos ben Judah, the mother was Stada. The mother was Miriam [Mary] the dresser of women's hair. As we say in Pumbeditha, “She has been false to [satath da] her husband.”

Translated by Robert Van Voorst (2000).
"http://www.jasoncolavito.com/pantera-father-of-jesus.html
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#33
Actually not. what I was referring to was a battle they had with Chinese who came by sea but some kind of Typhoon sprang up and the Chinese retreated. The Japanese gave credit to the god or gods of Mt. Fuji and believed a divine wind intervened. It became part of their mythology of why they could not be defeated on their home Island. Uh, bad idea! (History channel)
They used the name kamikaze for the suicide fighter pilots was taken from that earlier incident. They believed it would give them victory.

In the other theater of the war the German Tiger tanks suffered from being an outstanding tank with only one problem. It was a masterpiece of the problem of being so complicated it was too fragile. In the massive tank battle between German and Russian tanks many of them just had internal problems causing them to become a static target. Their drive train often quit working. This is an example of not using the KISS method. It also caused the long time to make the tank. The simpler Russian T35 tanks out maneuvered them and destroyed them. The T35 tanks were rolling off the manufacturing line and a crew was put in it with fuel and ammunition and they drove straight into battle. KISS won that battle!! Russians understood rugged vs fragile in their tank design. KISS won!!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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#34
Actually not. what I was referring to was a battle they had with Chinese who came by sea but some kind of Typhoon sprang up and the Chinese retreated. The Japanese gave credit to the god or gods of Mt. Fuji and believed a divine wind intervened. It became part of their mythology of why they could not be defeated on their home Island. Uh, bad idea! (History channel)
In WWII there was a difference in design of tanks between Germany and the Allies. The German Tiger tank was a superior tank with only one problem. It was too complicated and thus broke down often. The drive train was complicated and fragile as a result. In the massive tank battle between Russia and Germany to many of the Tiger tanks broke down and became static targets. They lost hundreds of their tanks when their drive train broke making them a static target. The Russians devestated the German panzers in that battle. The Russians lost many as well. The Russians could replace the tanks quickly. In fact during the battle tanks coming off the assembly line were fueled and loaded with ammunition and driven straight into battle. For every Tiger the Germans could produce the Russians made 10. Tiger too big and complicated. As such they also had problems getting to the battle site. They broke bridges. Too big and complicated. The allies used KISS in their tank designs. Thus they quickly outnumbered the German tanks. KISS won the day.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
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Anaheim, Cali.
#35
They used the name kamikaze for the suicide fighter pilots was taken from that earlier incident. They believed it would give them victory.

In the other theater of the war the German Tiger tanks suffered from being an outstanding tank with only one problem. It was a masterpiece of the problem of being so complicated it was too fragile. In the massive tank battle between German and Russian tanks many of them just had internal problems causing them to become a static target. Their drive train often quit working. This is an example of not using the KISS method. It also caused the long time to make the tank. The simpler Russian T35 tanks out maneuvered them and destroyed them. The T35 tanks were rolling off the manufacturing line and a crew was put in it with fuel and ammunition and they drove straight into battle. KISS won that battle!! Russians understood rugged vs fragile in their tank design. KISS won!!
I think Studebaker supplied over 100,000 trucks to Russia and Curtis sent them a bunch of p40 'Flying Tigers' that were lousy dogfighters but excellent anti tank and ground force planes. Much like the A10 Warthog.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,989
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#36
Only fools love it complicated. Are you a fool? There is a difference between keeping it simple and over complicating it. The Japanese in WWII went with complicated battle plans and lost big time. They forgot any battle plan never stays the same after contact with the enemy.
but is scripture simple, or is scripture complex?

is the mystery of godliness, God manifested in the flesh, simple, or complex?

right at the beginning of proverbs, simplicity, and love of simplicity, is connected with foolishness, with scorners and mockers -- with despising knowledge.
yes, there is elegance in minimalism, but yes, there is an elegance to be found in complexity, too - especially when the extraordinarily complex can be expressed in concise terms.


believe me, i know and appreciate it - having spent many years studying art, and studying math as well, i've seen some of it; it is the beauty in Sesshu Toyo's landscapes -

e483d42712de27706a23162ddf892e8e.jpg

and it is the beauty in Euler's identity -


e.gif


they are both relatively simple statements, made with the minimal vocabulary of grey palette and brushstroke or with fundamental operations and constants, communicating sublime complexity. they are not simple. they appear in a simple way, but they speak vastness, yet with restraint, implying an whole far more than the sum of their parts; a thousand words in a simple expression.

reductionism is not always a good solution.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
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#37
but is scripture simple, or is scripture complex?

is the mystery of godliness, God manifested in the flesh, simple, or complex?

right at the beginning of proverbs, simplicity, and love of simplicity, is connected with foolishness, with scorners and mockers -- with despising knowledge.
yes, there is elegance in minimalism, but yes, there is an elegance to be found in complexity, too - especially when the extraordinarily complex can be expressed in concise terms.


believe me, i know and appreciate it - having spent many years studying art, and studying math as well, i've seen some of it; it is the beauty in Sesshu Toyo's landscapes -

View attachment 196640

and it is the beauty in Euler's identity -




they are both relatively simple statements, made with the minimal vocabulary of grey palette and brushstroke or with fundamental operations and constants, communicating sublime complexity. they are not simple. they appear in a simple way, but they speak vastness, yet with restraint, implying an whole far more than the sum of their parts; a thousand words in a simple expression.

reductionism is not always a good solution.
I worked with very complex electronics and software. The issue is some made them more complex than need be. One software engineer made his code more indecipherable on purpose. He thought it fun to make life miserable for those who had to fix it later. Good software has a good flow with comments everywhere. This fool deliberately made it convoluted with misleading comments.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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#38
I think Studebaker supplied over 100,000 trucks to Russia and Curtis sent them a bunch of p40 'Flying Tigers' that were lousy dogfighters but excellent anti tank and ground force planes. Much like the A10 Warthog.
My father helped make them. He worked at the Studebaker plant in South Bend, Indiana. It moved to Canada in the late 50s or early 60s and died there. Gravely garden tractor survived and still exists.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
145
43
#39
(6) The authentic tomb of Jesus and the remains of Golgotha can be found in The Church of the Holy Sepulcher and not in and near the Garden Tomb. So it saddened me that this most sacred church was not part of our tour of Israel. Instead, we visited the Garden Tomb in an area used by the Crusaders to keep their horses! That tomb is centuries older than the "new" tomb that housed Jesus' corpse. True, there is a nearby rock hill that some think resembles the shape of a skull. But there is good reason to favor the tomb and rock pile in this ancient Church as the true site of both Jesus' tomb and Golgotha. For the evidence, see, for example:

https://www.mikemasonbooks.com/the-...lcher-chapter-60-of-jesus-his-story-in-stone/

When Constantine became the first Christian emperor, he wanted to build a church over the site of Jesus' tomb. The Jerusalem church in the early 300s AD had been told by their forefathers that the emperor had built a temple of Venus over Jesus' tomb in the early 2nd century. So Constantine decreed that this pagan temple be torn down, so that Christ's tomb could be rediscovered. When this order was executed, there was Jesus' tomb just as Jerusalem church leaders predicted on the basis of their oral tradition! Golgotha was just 40 yards away from Jesus' tomb, but had been reduced to a 13 ft. pile of rocks by the Roman engineers who leveled the area to facilitate the construction of the Venus temple. In his book, The Life of Constantine 3:25-28, Eusebius claims that this discovery provided "proof" of the site of Jesus' resurrection, probably because of inscriptional evidence on the tomb's exterior, which was apparently destroyed by Constantine's construction of a church over these 2 holy locales.

"Jesus suffered outside the city gate (Hebrews 13:12; cp. John 19:20)." Jesus' tomb in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is close to the city gate. Jesus was buried in a garden tomb and there is abundant archaeological plant evidence that a garden had been planted in the rock quarry region of the Church's location.
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
#40
In WWII there was a difference in design of tanks between Germany and the Allies. The German Tiger tank was a superior tank with only one problem. It was too complicated and thus broke down often. The drive train was complicated and fragile as a result. In the massive tank battle between Russia and Germany to many of the Tiger tanks broke down and became static targets. They lost hundreds of their tanks when their drive train broke making them a static target. The Russians devestated the German panzers in that battle. The Russians lost many as well. The Russians could replace the tanks quickly. In fact during the battle tanks coming off the assembly line were fueled and loaded with ammunition and driven straight into battle. For every Tiger the Germans could produce the Russians made 10. Tiger too big and complicated. As such they also had problems getting to the battle site. They broke bridges. Too big and complicated. The allies used KISS in their tank designs. Thus they quickly outnumbered the German tanks. KISS won the day.
I haven’t read anything on the frigile drive train though i have read it was a pain to get at things, to get at the transmission the turret had to be removed. top five reasons the tiger tank II had issues. and like you mentioned for about every 12 t-34 produced - 1 tiger tank II.

  1. Tracks: During winter, mud and snow would pack into the tracks and freeze up, thus jamming the tracks. When the Russians realised this, they timed their attacks for the early morning before the snow/mud could thaw.
  2. Size: Few bridges were strong enough to cope with the ever increasing weight of the various different marks of the Tiger. Therefore, the first 495 Tigers were fitted with a snorkel which allowed them to cross rivers up to a depth of 13 feet. This was abandoned as an economy measure so that later versions could only operate to a depth of 4 feet.
  3. Production: Flat section armour plate was used throughout the assembly process, which allowed the use of heavy armour. Various parts were made as one unit complete with interlocking joints that made assembly a quick process, which allowed the production of 1,350 tanks in 2 years, with 104 being made in just one month in April 1944. However, each tank cost over 250,000 marks to manufacture.
  4. Fuel/Distance usage: A journey of just 60 miles by a Tiger could eat up 150 gallons of fuel. Maintainingfuel supply to Tiger columns was always a difficult process and one that could be very easily disrupted by Resistance.
  5. In combat: A Tiger could hit a T34 from 1500 metres but the T34 proved to be superior in close-quarterfighting.