The Life of Jesus' from Evidence Outside our Gospels

[Lanolin]

Enough of my debunking role!

(8) The Church of the Nativity is built over the grotto which ancient tradition reports as the birthplace of Jesus. The church father Origen (born 185 AD) attests the widespread ancient tradition that Jesus was born in a cave near Bethlehem: "In Bethlehem the cave is pointed out where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling clothes. And the rumor is in those places, and among foreigners of the Faith, that indeed Jesus was born in this cave who is worshipped and reverenced by the Christians Origen, Against Celsus 1:51)." This tradition seems traceable to the time of the Gospels and is attested by Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) who grew up in nearby Samaria (Dialogue with Trypho 78). This cave was apparently used as manger for livestock and would help explain how the shepherds and the magi were able to find Jesus. This cave may have been adjacent to the house in which Joseph and Mary spent some time. One of my greatest disappointments on my guided tour of Israel was the elimination of a visit to the Church of the Nativity.

How come you didnt go? Just wondering, maybe not enough time?

I talked to a workmate and was sharing with her the gospel, she had actually gone to Israel on a tour and seen all the places that Jesus walked, but she still didnt believe. I asked if she read the Bible and she still was skeptical. So I shared with her my testimony and that got her thinking.

 

[obedienttogod]

Enough of my debunking role!

(8) The Church of the Nativity is built over the grotto which ancient tradition reports as the birthplace of Jesus. The church father Origen (born 185 AD) attests the widespread ancient tradition that Jesus was born in a cave near Bethlehem: "In Bethlehem the cave is pointed out where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling clothes. And the rumor is in those places, and among foreigners of the Faith, that indeed Jesus was born in this cave who is worshipped and reverenced by the Christians Origen, Against Celsus 1:51)." This tradition seems traceable to the time of the Gospels and is attested by Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) who grew up in nearby Samaria (Dialogue with Trypho 78). This cave was apparently used as manger for livestock and would help explain how the shepherds and the magi were able to find Jesus. This cave may have been adjacent to the house in which Joseph and Mary spent some time. One of my greatest disappointments on my guided tour of Israel was the elimination of a visit to the Church of the Nativity.

We know that Yeshua was not born in the comforts of a home, inn, or some place meant for humans. So, there never was a church of the Nativity.

I live on a farm and have cows, horses, and llamas besides several species of fowl. But a fresh cow patty is warm just like a horses balls of turds. If I had a child and it was a cooler evening, I would gather as much fresh poop and put my baby upon it to keep it warm. I would personally lay on a bed of crap to keep warm if need be!!


This could be how Mary did Yeshua!!

 

[MadHermit]

I dont see your point that believers have to 'apologize' for Jesus existence by using apologetics, if people dont believe and dont want to believe they just wont believe, even if Jesus came and saw them face to face.
We dont need to argue anymore with them, we can just point to the empty tomb, or the shroud, or youself as a living letter of the gospel, or the Bible.

"Apologetics" just means a ratonal defense of the Christian faith. Conservative seminaries often offer a course in it.
Acrually many college educated people have become Christians with the help of Apologetics!

As for why I didn't go to the Church of the Nativity anyway, I asked our Israeli guide why we had to stop at the Shepherds' Fields and he replied, "If I tried to take you into Bethlehem, I'd be kidnapped by the Arabs there and held for ransom!"

By the way, we went through the high priest's palace and saw where Jesus spent the last night of His earthly life and the path leadithere from Gethsemane through the Kidron Valley. Our guide told us that astronaut Neil Armstrong looked out at that path and said, "This is the most important moment of my life!" Like, even more important than his moon landing?

 

[tumeric]

(1) Atheist Morton Smith is a genuine scholar. In his unique book, "Jesus the Magician," he reconstructs the version of Jesus' life as told by His Jewish detractors. I have summarized his findings in the paragraph below. The main source is the Platonist Celsus, who interviewed Jewish leaders to get their version of Jesus' life. Some of what they share can be independently corroborated by earlier sources traceable to the first century. I have cited other sources in parentheses for certain negative Jewish traditions about Jesus.

Jesus is the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier named Panthera and a spinner woman (Rabbi Eliezer--70 AD). Her husband disowned her for her adultery and Jesus was born while she was on the run. He got a job in Egypt as a laborer and took the opportunity to become an adept in magic there. Jesus even had himself tattooed with magical spells (Celsus--170 AD--also responsible for the ensuing claims). Returning to Galilee Jesus hung out with sailors of the worst sort, and wandered from place to place, making his living shamefully as a beggar. He recruited 10 (not 12) disciples and taught them to indulge in secret orgies in defiance of the Law of Moses. He persuaded the masses that he was the Messiah by his miracles, which were either demonically powered or nothing more than magically induced hallucinations. His cures were not real and did not last (Quadratus--100-125 AD). Even his own family rejected his claims. He was tried and executed by Pilate for sedition and the practice of magic. His disciples stole his body and then claimed that they saw him after he rose from the dead. Some say the gardener at the tomb site removed the body to discourage sightseers from stepping on his lettuce (Tertullian--208 AD). But the false claim that he rose from the dead has gained him a huge following.

Both believers and Jesus' Jewish detractors agree
(1) that Joseph is not Jesus' true father,
If Joseph is not Jesus' father, then we need to choose between His illegitimate birth and His virgin birth.
(2) that to His Jewish audience, Jesus appeared to perform miracles:
Notice that His Jewish detractors don't claim that these miracle stories are later fabrications.
(3) that Jesus' crucified body was not buried by Roman soldiers in the customary manner:
So His missing corpse forced speculation on His body's fate.
(4) that, unlike our Gospels His detractors are interested in His physical appearance:
"Was the claim that he was tattooed related to Paul's claim, "I carry the marks of Jesus branded on my body (Galatians 6:17)?
Those marks are usually interpreted, rightly I think, as Paul's wounds inflicted for his Gospel witness.

 

[tumeric]

people always want proof of forecasts of future events / OT prophecies of the messiah are many and have occurred by the life of JESUS AS WELL AS THE LIFE JOHN THE BAPTIST written of in the NT / interpretations and translations of scripture are many and are beyond my scope of knowledge so i prefer to keep my faith with the simplicity of my simple mind

 

[MadHermit]

Why have I chosen not to mention the 2 references to Jesus in the first-century Jewish historian Josephus until now? Because the authenticity of both references is embroiled in controversy. For quotations of both references and arguments pro and con their authenticity, see:
.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html

My own opinion is that Josephus's reference to "James the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ" is genuine and that the summary of Jesus' ministry has been slightly reworded by a later editor to make it seem that the Pharisee Josephus believed in Jesus. But in my view the core of this reference is authentic because its style uses Josephus's standard vocabulary.

 

[MadHermit]

(10) THE MOST EVIDENTIAL BIBLICAL TEXT FOR JESUS' RESURRECTION:

The modern scholarly consensus is that none of the Gospel resurrection stories are historically accurate. Past President of The Society of Biblical Literture, Dominic Crossan, labels these stories "parables." According to this consensus, none of our Gospels can be connected with eyewitness testimony. Fortunately, almost none of this site's posters have taken a NT course in a secular university, and so, they have been carefully shielded from this faith-damaging academic teaching. But some of the educated skeptics that evangelicals encounter in daily living have taken such a course. So we need to have an answer ready for them that isn't immediately dismissed as historically naïve. Here is the best way to connect resurrection stories with eyewitness testimony. In 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 Paul provides the sequence of resurrection appearances that were confirmed to him by the Jerusalem apostles.

"He appeared to Cephas [Peter], then to the 12. Then He appeared to more than 500 brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive though some have fallen asleep. Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, He appeared...o to me."

Notice that Paul introduces his list with the claim: "I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received (15:3)." What he means is that he received the list or had it confirmed during his 2 trips to Jerusalem, during which the apostles checked out the accuracy of his Gospel witness. On his first Jerusalem visit, he spent 15 days with Peter (Cephas) and also saw Jesus' brother James (Galatians 1:18-19). On his 2nd trip to Jerusalem his Gospel was checked out by more apostles, including Peter, John, and Jesus, brother James (2:1-20). Paul's list can be reconciled with the Easter stories in our Gospels, but the explanation for this is too complicated to be explained in this post. What I say here has proven useful in opening the minds of educated skeptics who have ben exposed to scholarly debunkers.

 

[Lanolin]

Ok well scholars who believe lies and then teach them ought to find another job I reckon. Do something more useful with your life than being a skeptic. And you know how much those scholars would charge for people to attend their papers...something like at least $500 per paper, except some students arent aware of the content and think they are learning about the Bible, when in reality they are just learning someones opinion of the Bible.

I know this cos a friend of mine did some papers at university for her teaching degree, and decided to do some papers about the Bible but to her disappointment they didnt teach anything about it! Just other peoples skeptical opinions on it. Thankfully she wasnt taken in by them...but I would have dropped it after the first few lectures and studied something else.